Freedom Wins!

Well, whaddya know...the ACLU did something useful for a change!

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/Midwest/10/01/anti.bush.tshirt.ap/index.html

The kid may be misguided, he may be wrong, he may be dumb, or he may be right on the mark. Either way, agree with the kid's opinions or not, he had every right to express his views by wearing that shirt. GG to the Judge for recognizing that freedom is more important than the PC "don't criticize our Dear Leader" bullshit. The only thing un-American about this was the school that was trying to stifle his first amendment rights.

Here is the Shirt in question.

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Quoth the Bunny: "Forum Whore".

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Originally posted by: [Judge]Bravo_1
The only thing un-American about this was the school that was trying to stifle his first amendment rights.

Agreed 100%

If you are under 18 that shirt is inappropriate IMO..

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
If you are under 18 that shirt is inappropriate IMO..

Would you allow him to wear a shirt saying "GWB, BEST PRESIDENT EVAR!"? If so, then his shirt was appropriate.

Originally posted by: ViperX

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
If you are under 18 that shirt is inappropriate IMO..

Would you allow him to wear a shirt saying "GWB, BEST PRESIDENT EVAR!"? If so, then his shirt was appropriate.

You dont get it, do you...He is a child and its inappropriate...If he wants to wear it OUT of school fine. But its wrong for a child to wear that in school.
Post edited by ~~Snake~~ at 10/2/2003 9:11:39 AM

I disagree, Snake. It's the perogative of the school or school board to establish a dress code. If that shirt was not in violation of that dress code, then the ruling was correct. It states an unpopular stance many disagree with, but was not vulgar, profane or racist.

Basically, the school system has tools to regulate that sort of thing. They opted for lax rules, therefore, it's not up to the judge to decide arbitrarily what t-shirts are allowed and what aren't. The solution is for the school to adopt a policy banning "...racist, vulgar, sexually suggestive, political or otherwise disruptive" attire. Actually, given that this is Dearborn, I'd go even further: in addition to the above, "...no shirt, blouse or dress may have a logo larger than (say) 2 inches square." This will allow for polo shirts and the like while maintaining a sense of decorum. I have a polo shirt with Marvin the Martian saying, "(a)ctually, I am a rocket scientist." I don't see anything wrong with that. But I also have a t-shirt with Marvin's head poking out the front and his rear poking out the back. The subject matter is the same (Marvin), but the former maintains a certain degree of decorum.

Originally posted by: reimero
I disagree, Snake. It's the perogative of the school or school board to establish a dress code. If that shirt was not in violation of that dress code, then the ruling was correct. It states an unpopular stance many disagree with, but was not vulgar, profane or racist.

Basically, the school system has tools to regulate that sort of thing. They opted for lax rules, therefore, it's not up to the judge to decide arbitrarily what t-shirts are allowed and what aren't. The solution is for the school to adopt a policy banning "...racist, vulgar, sexually suggestive, political or otherwise disruptive" attire. Actually, given that this is Dearborn, I'd go even further: in addition to the above, "...no shirt, blouse or dress may have a logo larger than (say) 2 inches square." This will allow for polo shirts and the like while maintaining a sense of decorum. I have a polo shirt with Marvin the Martian saying, "(a)ctually, I am a rocket scientist." I don't see anything wrong with that. But I also have a t-shirt with Marvin's head poking out the front and his rear poking out the back. The subject matter is the same (Marvin), but the former maintains a certain degree of decorum.

It is profane...Its calling our leader a terrorist in a mainly arab school. he is a child and its a school..So again, out of school is not a problem..In school is a BIG one with myself and any reasonable adult

I do agree about the dress code. The dress code is important to be followed. The very few rules and disciplines that kids are asked to follow in school as it is, should be enforced. Certainly if that kid one day got some corporate job, and decided to hop into work in ANY t-shirt, he'd either get canned or sent home. So for that reason alone, it's important for the youngsters to dress appropriately. I have no idea what that school's dresscode is to make any direct comment about the shirt itself, regardless of my personal opinions of it.

DoMiNuS

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~

Originally posted by: reimero
I disagree, Snake. It's the perogative of the school or school board to establish a dress code. If that shirt was not in violation of that dress code, then the ruling was correct. It states an unpopular stance many disagree with, but was not vulgar, profane or racist.

Basically, the school system has tools to regulate that sort of thing. They opted for lax rules, therefore, it's not up to the judge to decide arbitrarily what t-shirts are allowed and what aren't. The solution is for the school to adopt a policy banning "...racist, vulgar, sexually suggestive, political or otherwise disruptive" attire. Actually, given that this is Dearborn, I'd go even further: in addition to the above, "...no shirt, blouse or dress may have a logo larger than (say) 2 inches square." This will allow for polo shirts and the like while maintaining a sense of decorum. I have a polo shirt with Marvin the Martian saying, "(a)ctually, I am a rocket scientist." I don't see anything wrong with that. But I also have a t-shirt with Marvin's head poking out the front and his rear poking out the back. The subject matter is the same (Marvin), but the former maintains a certain degree of decorum.

It is profane...Its calling our leader a terrorist in a mainly arab school. he is a child and its a school..So again, out of school is not a problem..In school is a BIG one with myself and any reasonable adult

First, with regards to dress codes, most people equate "profanity" with "4-letter words."
Second, what about a t-shirt with OBL or Saddam with a sniper's crosshairs over their faces? Are those any more acceptable? I mean, do we want to advocate killing other people? (And yes, I know you say they deserve it.) The point is, where do you draw the lines?

I stand by my original statement: the school or school board should ban this sort of thing because if this is a public school, they can't ban one specific shirt because they don't like the message. This isn't the jurisdiction of the courts, because when you involve the courts it inevitably becomes a first amendment issue. If you make it a dress code issue, the courts will stay out. But the dress code has to be spelled out and enforced. That's my point.

We are in the USA..Not pakistan. He is a child who's message is one of hate...He is around other children who might not understand its a joke or whatever. You dont wear that type of stuff in school. When he is 18 or out of school he can.

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
We are in the USA..Not pakistan. He is a child who's message is one of hate...He is around other children who might not understand its a joke or whatever. You dont wear that type of stuff in school. When he is 18 or out of school he can.

His message is not one of hate, it's one of dissent. The right to make political statement AGAINST your own goverment is one of the MOST IMPORTANT rights we have in this country.

I don't like the shirt and think a child that is too young to even understand the statement he is making by wearing such a shirt should not wear it. However I would not support having it banned because rights must be protected at all times. If the school doesn't like poltical statements on shirts they have to ban them ALL, that means anti-Bush AND pro-Bush. Anything less then a total ban on political statements would mean the school is endorsing a certain view and stopping any dissenting voice, that is wrong and un-american.

Originally posted by: --DestinO--

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
We are in the USA..Not pakistan. He is a child who's message is one of hate...He is around other children who might not understand its a joke or whatever. You dont wear that type of stuff in school. When he is 18 or out of school he can.

His message is not one of hate, it's one of dissent. The right to make political statement AGAINST your own goverment is one of the MOST IMPORTANT rights we have in this country.

I don't like the shirt and think a child that is too young to even understand the statement he is making by wearing such a shirt should not wear it. However I would not support having it banned because rights must be protected at all times. If the school doesn't like poltical statements on shirts they have to ban them ALL, that means anti-Bush AND pro-Bush. Anything less then a total ban on political statements would mean the school is endorsing a certain view and stopping any dissenting voice, that is wrong and un-american.

I agree with that right..This is about whats appropriate in a school environment IMO...The president should be respected whether you like him or not. And all this does is teach disrespect when a Child wears something like this. I would be just as admanent if it was Clinton, or Carter, etc. Its not about politcal party. Its about respect for our leader and country.
Post edited by ~~Snake~~ at 10/2/2003 11:11:32 AM

I agree that the shirt should not be allowed. This school has to my knowledge already had 3 school closing racially motivated fights, between almost all the student body. Its a good school just at times like this because of the half arab half white mix feelings and passions run rampant. Also if you look at the kids name I am almost positive that he is white. So the chances of him causing problems would have been real small because of it.

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
I agree with that right..This is about whats appropriate in a school environment IMO...The president should be respected whether you like him or not. And all this does is teach disrespect when a Child wears something like this. I would be just as admanent if it was Clinton, or Carter, etc. Its not about politcal party. Its about respect for our leader and country.

Which brings me back to my original point: it's up to the SCHOOL to deal with this issue through policies and procedures and clearly spelled-out guidelines. Better yet, enforce a uniform or a stricter dress code: no shorts, no jeans and all shirts must have a collar would be a good start. (And yes, I know there are shirts without collars that are perfectly acceptable in the modern workplace, but if you can enforce the "stupid" collar rule even if the shirt is otherwise acceptable, it becomes a LOT easier to deal with this sort of thing.)

I have mixed emotions about this. While there is the whole freedome of speech thing, it allows us to say ALMOST anything without fear of reprisal. I say almost anything because you can't go into a crowded movie theatre and yell "FIRE!" and not be sent to jail.

I admit, though, that I would prefer him not wearing the shirt.

The shirt isn't appropriate for a school. The kid did it for attention plain and simple and to raise shit. That's not what school is for.

Faken



[15:11] [@half_the_sky] no. I love pain.

Originally posted by: Fakenrite
The shirt isn't appropriate for a school. The kid did it for attention plain and simple and to raise shit. That's not what school is for.

Faken

DoMiNuS

I find the shirt funny actually. Maybe Bush is considered a terrorist to the people who we call terrorist?

I mean, look at it this way. If you're playing a game and charlie is red, while friendly is green, what happens if you switch teams, or are on a different team? The red and green indicators will be different depending on the side you are fighting for.

However, because the kid probably picked the shirt up and put it on for attention, I dismiss the fact that he was 'playing' for the other side.

Conclusion, way to waste tax dollars making a big deal out of a 2 dollar shirt.

Post edited by darkwhyte at 10/2/2003 12:38:02 PM

exactly, this kinda shit is a useless waste of time

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
We are in the USA..Not pakistan. He is a child who's message is one of hate...He is around other children who might not understand its a joke or whatever. You dont wear that type of stuff in school. When he is 18 or out of school he can.

Once again, Snake shows he is dedicated to Constitutional freedoms...for everybody that agress with HIM.

If you are gonna ban THAT shirt, yo'd have to ban the one that said "International Hero" as well. It works both ways.

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Quoth the Bunny: "Forum Whore".

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Originally posted by: [Judge]Bravo_1

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
We are in the USA..Not pakistan. He is a child who's message is one of hate...He is around other children who might not understand its a joke or whatever. You dont wear that type of stuff in school. When he is 18 or out of school he can.

Once again, Snake shows he is dedicated to Constitutional freedoms...for everybody that agress with HIM.

If you are gonna ban THAT shirt, yo'd have to ban the one that said "International Hero" as well. It works both ways.

And once again you don't seem to grasp the concepts of appropriate behavior and using common sense...And it doesnt go both ways.

'If the school doesn't like poltical statements on shirts they have to ban them ALL, that means anti-Bush AND pro-Bush. Anything less then a total ban on political statements would mean the school is endorsing a certain view and stopping any dissenting voice, that is wrong and un-american. '

"Bush advocates agree: there ought to be limits to freedom." - maddox

Actually thats wrong again Knightmare...There is a big differenc from supporting our leader or whomever than to calling him/her a terrorists in a school district.

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
Actually thats wrong again Knightmare...There is a big differenc from supporting our leader or whomever than to calling him/her a terrorists in a school district.

Both are poltical statements and thus are protected speech. Nationalism plays no role in deciding what is and what isn't protected.

I agree... there's a huge difference between sporting a shirt with a positive message than a negative one. You can wear a T-Shirt with a thumbs up and happy face on it, but not one with a middle finger and a mad face. Let's ban all T-Shirts with hands on them. Kids are sent back to change due to innapropriate clothing all the time... this is getting press because it's political. Get over it.

Faken

*Edit - Despite being a huge rebel in class - You want freedom of speech? Go outside... School requires discipline and respect for the faculty. They don't like your shirt, don't fukin wear it. The classroom is not about your freedom to express yourself unless they ask it of you. Assinine disruptions affect your faculty, students around you trying to learn etc... there's structure for a reason. Jesus this shit pisses me right off...

Post edited by Fakenrite at 10/2/2003 4:47:40 PM



[15:11] [@half_the_sky] no. I love pain.

Well, if nothing else, this is a good example of "Keeping Debate Alive".

Even though I disagree with Snake (and to a lesser extent Dominus) I still feel compelled to support the idea that they can express their opinions.

Of course it's WAY over the top to refer to GWB as a Terrorist. Many of us believe he is an Imperialist, and many more that he is a Crusading Egomaniac, but those are certainly not on the same level as UBL or Hussein. It's the art of exaggerration, I guess. Some conservatives call anyone left of center a "Commie" or "Socialist". That is of course, completely retarded. Some liberals accuse every person right of center of being a Fascist, Bible-freak, or Nazi. Equally Stupid.

There are MAYBE one or two true Fascists or Commies floating around here, and certainly a few Socialists and Bible-Freaks, but that still hardly represents the majority of us. Most of us are moderates, even though we sometimes replace intelligent debate with inane rhetoric.

We are ALL guilty of occasionally parroting the latest soundbite or miscellaneous crap from Anne Coulter or Al Franken without bothering to do the research ourselves, but from what I have seen, at least in this small corner of the Web, we are getting better at remembering that, at the end of the day, everyone wants whatever's best for the world we live in.

(Except for that Mojo guy...he's still a hard-core nutcase. The guys in the white jackets are coming, my friend. Please don't resist. It's for your own good. )
Post edited by [Judge]Bravo_1 at 10/2/2003 4:48:43 PM

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Quoth the Bunny: "Forum Whore".

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Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
Actually thats wrong again Knightmare...There is a big differenc from supporting our leader or whomever than to calling him/her a terrorists in a school district.

Yes. The difference is you disagree with one of those opinions.

Fortunately for the rest of your country, that reasoning doesn't cut it.

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Quoth the Bunny: "Forum Whore".

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Destino needs a hug folks. He's quite possibly the most negative person on this forum.

Group Hug please.

Originally posted by: DoMiNuS
Destino needs a hug folks. He's quite possibly the most negative person on this forum.

Group Hug please.

negative? please. I'm a mother f*ckin bundle of joy.



Post edited by --DestinO-- at 10/2/2003 5:13:06 PM

Well in your mind you were correcting things. I don't care about that. Right or wrong I or you may be... that is not the first time you have been rude to me directly.

Remarks like that "You people need to quit this rewriting history bullshit" does not sit well with me. That's rude, and you turn what is a civil conversation into personal sarcasm.

I could have enjoyed your post without that single remark in there. now, I'm sitting here wondering what the beef is you apparently have with me.

bleh, i could have done without the "bullshit" part. I'll give you that.

you'll have to excuse me, I'm a little angry since having found out that in Halo I can be shot out of a tank with the Uber pistol. Very annoying indeed for us bf42 players.

rgr that

Originally posted by: [Judge]Bravo_1

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
Actually thats wrong again Knightmare...There is a big differenc from supporting our leader or whomever than to calling him/her a terrorists in a school district.

Yes. The difference is you disagree with one of those opinions.

Fortunately for the rest of your country, that reasoning doesn't cut it.

Almost every single person I have spoke with agree's with me. And since its MY country, I have a better idea than you what the majority thinks...

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~

Originally posted by: [Judge]Bravo_1

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
Actually thats wrong again Knightmare...There is a big differenc from supporting our leader or whomever than to calling him/her a terrorists in a school district.

Yes. The difference is you disagree with one of those opinions.

Fortunately for the rest of your country, that reasoning doesn't cut it.

Almost every single person I have spoke with agree's with me. And since its MY country, I have a better idea than you what the majority thinks...

This country is obviously mine. And no for the last time I will not trade it to you for cuba and costa rica.


Post edited by --DestinO-- at 10/2/2003 5:30:56 PM

get's home, looks around. See's a philosphical bloodbath, Smiles and goes to take a pee

It's been too quiet lately.
!
This message was brought to you by the Society for the Reinstitution of Natural Selection

[ Admins killed my beautiful sig ]

Ah, yes...the fundamental flaw in our democracies rears its ugly head...

The Majority isn't always right.

However, since it's better than the alternative, I guess we're stuck with it.

I would say that remain proud to be in the minority, but the truth is conservatives haven't been the Majority in EITHER of our countries for quite some time.

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Quoth the Bunny: "Forum Whore".

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Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
If you are under 18 that shirt is inappropriate IMO..

on what do you base that "18" line?

voting?

pfft!!! Vast majority of Americans dont even vote, what is it? 66% of those elegible do not vote?

so only people who vote have a right to free speech?

i would like that very much, cuz I havent missed an election yet....sooo many people take this country for granted. fucktards.

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Here is my response to the "Army of Northern Virginia" Flag used by white supremacists telling us it really represents the Confederate side in the Historic Civil War:

GENERAL CUSTER'S HEAQUARTERS FLAG

He should be allowed to wear that shirt to school. His decision to get his ass kicked when he travels to a pro-Bush town.

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The best thing about the future is that it comes only one day at a time.

--Abraham Lincoln

How about we abolish the entire current concept of public schools and put all that money into the development of free military school for all. Give that shit 15 years and see where America's youth are
!
This message was brought to you by the Society for the Reinstitution of Natural Selection

[ Admins killed my beautiful sig ]

Originally posted by: =NCG=Leonidas
How about we abolish the entire current concept of public schools and put all that money into the development of free military school for all. Give that shit 15 years and see where America's youth are

Hitler had a plan just like that. Perhaps you should think about that.