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Islam showing peaceful intentions again in Jakarta.....:(

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Indonesia Hotel Bombing Kills 13 People
1 hour, 11 minutes ago

By STEVEN GUTKIN, Associated Press Writer

JAKARTA, Indonesia - A suspected suicide bombing at the Marriott Hotel in the heart of Jakarta on Tuesday killed 13 people and injured 149, shattering hopes for peace in the wake of last year's Bali blasts and underscoring the continued threat of terrorism in the world's largest Muslim nation.


AP Photo


AP Photo
Slideshow: Terrorist Bombing at Jakarta Hotel

Terrorist Bomb Strikes Hotel in Jakarta
(AP Video)



"This is another very, very tragic event for Indonesia's efforts of recovery," said Anders Backman, the charge d'affaires at the Swedish Embassy, which was also damaged in the midday blast.


The Marriott — a frequent venue for U.S. Embassy functions and a popular destination for foreigners — was transformed into a bloody inferno when a vehicle packed with explosives blew up on the driveway leading to its front entrance.


The governor of Jakarta, Sutiyoso, said it was "very likely" carried out by a suicide bomber. The national police chief, Da'i Bachtiar, refused to speculate on the cause, but confirmed the vehicle was moving at the time of the explosion.


Puddles of blood and shattered glass littered a two-block radius. The 33-story hotel — which had a 77 percent occupancy rate at the time of the blast — was decimated, its lobby covered in charred sofas, overturned tables and caved-in ceilings.


Rescue teams rushed to evacuate the wounded, which reportedly included at least 10 foreigners, including two Americans. A Dutch citizen was the only foreigner reported among the dead.


"Women ran out of the hotel screaming 'help! help!'" said Supria, a 40-year-old construction worker, adding that rescuers aimed fire extinguishers at people engulfed in flames.


"I thought a plane must have hit the building," said Iin, an office worker in an adjacent building who like many Indonesians uses a single name.


Inside a ground-floor restaurant of an adjacent building, half-eaten pasta dishes remained on tables covered in broken plates and glass.


Ceiling and wall panels were scattered in the street outside the hotel's lobby, exposing the bare concrete pillars. The adjacent Rajawali building houses the embassies of Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark. None of the staff were injured, officials said.


The Indonesian Red Cross put the death toll at 13, adding that 149 people were wounded.


It was only 10 months ago — on Oct. 12 — that suspected Islamic militants blew up two nightclubs on the idyllic island of Bali, killing 202 people, mostly foreign tourists, and catapulting Indonesia into the front lines of the international war on terror.


The government won kudos for its efforts to bring the perpetrators of those blasts to justice. In recent months and weeks, tourism and foreign investment had begun to return; the U.S. Embassy in April gave the green light for staffers to bring their families back to Indonesia.


All that has now been thrown into doubt.


The Indonesian currency, the rupiah, fell more than two percent Tuesday and the Jakarta stock exchange (news - web sites) closed 3.1 percent lower. Businesses and hotels were already reporting cancellations by would-be visitors.


No one claimed responsibility for the blast, but suspicion immediately fell on the same organization blamed for the Bali attack — the al-Qaida-linked Jemaah Islamiyah, which authorities say is fighting to install a pan-Islamic state in Southeast Asia.


Its alleged leader, Abu Bakar Bashir, took the stand for the first time Tuesday at his treason trial over a series of bombings in 2000. During his testimony — which occurred before the Marriott explosion — he admitted to giving his "blessings" to militants who trained in the southern Philippines and Afghanistan (news - web sites) in the 1990s.





Bashir denies any link to terrorism, however.

Keenly aware of the potential economic fallout from the latest blast — the Bali bombings wrecked tourism in one of the world's premier vacation spots — Indonesia moved quickly to bolster security.

Security minister Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono said the government had ordered strict checks at the airport and other public places, and said officials would announce even stronger security measures on Wednesday.

Calling the blast a "diabolical and inhumane terrorist attack," he added: "We cannot allow any space for terrorism."

Later in the day, President Megawati Sukarnoputri toured the wreckage and visited the wounded at a hospital. Only four days ago, Megawati gave a state-of-the-nation address calling militants "a terrifying threat" and vowing to "dismantle the terrorist network to its roots."

Leaders from around the world expressed horror and outrage. Philippine President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo (news - web sites) called it a "dastardly act." German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer sent Indonesia his "deepest sympathies."

Australian Prime Minister John Howard, who stayed at the Marriott on a recent visit to Jakarta and whose country lost 88 citizens in the Bali blasts, offered to send investigators to help Indonesian authorities.

"If, as it appears likely, it is a terrorist attack, it is yet another reminder that the fight against JI (Jemaah Islamiyah) and other groups goes on and it will be a fight that will take years and require the cooperation of all of the agencies in the region," he said.

Indonesia's Vice President Hamzah Haz said the attack may have been targeted against U.S. interests in the country. The Marriott had been the site of the U.S. Embassy's July 4 celebrations during the past two years.

About three dozen alleged Jemaah Islamiyah members have been arrested in connection with the Bali blasts and could be executed if convicted. Tuesday's bomb rocked the capital just two days before the first verdict is expected in a series of trials on Bali.

A U.S. official, asking that his name not be used, said the latest explosion bore the hallmarks of a Jemaah Islamiyah attack, but stressed that most of the casualties appear to be Indonesians, not foreigners.

"It's definitely a trademark of Jemaah Islamiyah to cause as many casualties as possible in high profile attacks," the official said.

Among the dead was Dutch citizen Hans Winkelmolen, 49, a bank president who was winding up a three-year assignment in Jakarta and was eating in the hotel restaurant with his successor, Tony Costa, when the bomb went off, said company spokesman Jan Dost. Costa was hospitalized and the extent of his injuries was not known.

Winkelmolen, 49, was president of PT Rabobank Duta Indonesia, a subsidiary of the Dutch cooperative bank Rabobank.

The U.S. Embassy condemned the attack, and said U.S. authorities remain confident in the Indonesian government's ability to rein in terrorism and protect American interests in the country.

However, embassy spokesman Tim Gerhardson said a U.S. State Department advisory warning Americans to defer all non-essential travel to Indonesia remains in effect.





Hopefully they will get these bastards who did this....
first Bali..now this
i could hear the blast from my home..my first thought was that it was a bomb..unfortunately i was right.

my heart goes out to all the people killed and injured.



....
ZU

Glad you are OK Sealily...I was worried you might be near there..I heard the blast could be heard for miles...
thanks snake

although you could have said Islam Extremists instead of just Islam you know


....
ZU

Originally posted by: ZUSeaLily
thanks snake

although you could have said Islam Extremists instead of just Islam you know



Thats what I mean...This old brain just hates typing all that outhehe...But glad you are ok...


i don't think i'll go to any crowded places for a while.

i bet it is those JI extremist bastards behind this. i think two of them have been condemned to death and another one is about to be sentenced tomorrow.


....
ZU

Originally posted by: ZUSeaLily
i don't think i'll go to any crowded places for a while.

i bet it is those JI extremist bastards behind this. i think two of them have been condemned to death and another one is about to be sentenced tomorrow.



Yep..I saw that...My guess is they think the terror will cause the judge to recind the sentence..All it has done is pull the country together to tackle terrorism...
They need the Argentinian special treatment (Argentina did this to folks in the 80's off the record of course)

Fly them up real high over the ocean far from land. Give them a parachute. Push them out.

They now have two choices

- die on impact, this takes the will power to not attempt to save yourself.
- Pull the chute and drown in the ocean, not a fun way to go.
yes. but i just read that the police have indentified the car used in the bombing as a rented car, they have the number so they are going to check that out.

i hope they can catch the culprits soon!

those fucks even kill their own ppl. sad
yes, kinda like that fuck timothy mcveigh. i hope they all rot in hell together.



....
ZU

Originally posted by: ZUSeaLily
yes, kinda like that fuck timothy mcveigh. i hope they all rot in hell together.




i can assure you that tim is in hell live and not well
Islam is not a peaceful religion.

- end of discussion -


(note to admins: I can prove what I just said, I am not friviosly flaming a religion)
Tim McVeigh, Idi Amin and Strom Thurmond share a bed on the banks of the River Styx, I am told.

Oh...btw...anyone blowing shit up ain't a true Muslim.
Originally posted by: [Judge]Bravo_1
Tim McVeigh, Idi Amin and Strom Thurmond share a bed on the banks of the River Styx, I am told.

Oh...btw...anyone blowing shit up ain't a true Muslim.


Bullshit. Anyone NOT blowing up shit and being violent is not a true Muslim. Destroy the infidels, eh?

edit: The only way Islam in it's purist form could be peaceful is if they have killed every other person on the face of the earth that does not agree with them.
Post edited by Naut at 8/6/2003 2:09:06 AM
Originally posted by: [Judge]Bravo_1
Tim McVeigh, Idi Amin and Strom Thurmond share a bed on the banks of the River Styx, I am told.


Unless I'm mistaken, isn't Idi Amin currently alive and well and living lavishly in Saudi Arabia?
No, AMin died recently. He'd been a virtual vegetable for a couple of years before that.
Originally posted by: Naut
Islam is not a peaceful religion.

- end of discussion -


(note to admins: I can prove what I just said, I am not friviosly flaming a religion)



i think that you are a FUCKING IDIOT. i live in a predominantly muslim country and i can for sure say that NOT every muslim is a radical nutcase.

my guess is that you don't even live in a muslim country, nor do you have any muslim friends, or have studied Islam in depth. and you have proof that Islam is not a peaceful religion? fucking moron




....
ZU

As much as Sealily, myself, Mojo, Naut, and others dont agree on everything, especially Islam..We should all agree it was tragic and that we all want those responsible caught....

We can all understand terror, regardless of race or religion is wrong...
Post edited by ~~Snake~~ at 8/6/2003 10:36:20 AM

Originally posted by: ZUSeaLily
Originally posted by: Naut
Islam is not a peaceful religion.

- end of discussion -


(note to admins: I can prove what I just said, I am not friviosly flaming a religion)



i think that you are a FUCKING IDIOT. i live in a predominantly muslim country and i can for sure say that NOT every muslim is a radical nutcase.

my guess is that you don't even live in a muslim country, nor do you have any muslim friends, or have studied Islam in depth. and you have proof that Islam is not a peaceful religion? fucking moron





i work with a bunch of indonesian and they are good guys. they are born muslims but don't practice it. they are some of the best co-workers i've ever had. they smoke weed/crack, drink, and eat pork and they are peaceful
Originally posted by: =NCG=Leonidas
Sorry Sparta but while the US did some stuff that wasn't exactly pretty. they DID NOT try to systematically destroy local populations like the Russians did in Afghanistan Chechnya and a couple other places. Nor did they completely decapitate a country like China did to Taiwan.


decapitate what? did i miss the news? what r u talking about?
Originally posted by: ZUSeaLily
Originally posted by: Naut
Islam is not a peaceful religion.

- end of discussion -


(note to admins: I can prove what I just said, I am not friviosly flaming a religion)



i think that you are a FUCKING IDIOT. i live in a predominantly muslim country and i can for sure say that NOT every muslim is a radical nutcase.

my guess is that you don't even live in a muslim country, nor do you have any muslim friends, or have studied Islam in depth. and you have proof that Islam is not a peaceful religion? fucking moron



ZU, good job calling names.

I did not say all Muslims are evil, or that all Muslims are violent. I said that any Muslim who lives up to and uses the original religion guidelines IS violent. I truely do not give a damn where you live, or who you know.

I am going to base this on ONE fact, ONE statement, and this one fact is enough. In the original Koran it states and commands to "destroy the infidels". Guess what.. You are not an America, but I am. I am the infidel. According to the original text of the Koran, I should be destroyed - AKA killed. That is violence.

Any Muslim who follows the original Koran and follows it's commands IS violent.

-Drake
Originally posted by: mojo7
Originally posted by: =NCG=Leonidas
Sorry Sparta but while the US did some stuff that wasn't exactly pretty. they DID NOT try to systematically destroy local populations like the Russians did in Afghanistan Chechnya and a couple other places. Nor did they completely decapitate a country like China did to Taiwan.


decapitate what? did i miss the news? what r u talking about?


When the Chinese occupied Taiwan they deported the ENTIRE ruling class and all their children to work camps in the desert and the mountains. they either froze to death or baked in the sun. And taiwan having had their entire ruling class decimated was not able to offer any ongoing resistance.
This message was brought to you by the Society for the Reinstitution of Natural Selection
Naut, one line does not define a religion, i could start quoting lines from all the world religious texts that imply violence or intolerance to some group, but most fairly minded people know that this does not represent the whole religion or the majority of the people that follow the religion. Go back to my post about people perverting religions....and using them for their own personal motives.

And that guy was quite justified in his anger, if i were religious and some guy goes calling my religion violent, id be pissed to. Lets try to be more specific in our criticisms of terrorists eh, no more generalizations.

And i look forward to snakes list...
Bullshit, you are calling black white.

It is not ONE line, I just used one line as an example. Throughout the Koran it teaches violence and directly gives commands of violence. Much of the Koran revolves around destroying people that are not of that religion. This is called religous genocide. If a true Muslim ran the world, any Christian would be dead.

GG, you lose.

-Drake
Originally posted by: =NCG=Leonidas
Sorry Sparta but while the US did some stuff that wasn't exactly pretty. they DID NOT try to systematically destroy local populations like the Russians did in Afghanistan Chechnya and a couple other places. Nor did they completely decapitate a country like China did to Taiwan.


Well Japan raped China during WW2, Germany raped Russia until they got stuck there....and i seem to remember some Native Americans lived in this land of ours, trail of tears anyone? Do you see my point, history isnt as clear as good vs evil.

I'm not saying the US is evil, im saying weve done our fair share of crap to people. I mean Stalin and Mao killed a heck of alot more people, were talking millions there, then theres cambodia. Communism prob killed even more people than imperialism/colonialism.
But we dropped couple of bombs in little ole Japan, now you can argue whether that made the war finish faster, but it sure killed alot of civilians didnt it.

Round and Round we go.
"GG you lose"??? Wow thats impressive there. No Naut, the Koran is not full of violence, i dont know where this stuff is stemming from, but please keep it to yourself in future. People interpret the same thing in different ways, the Koran is no different from the Bible, i somehow dont think anything will change your view on this matter.

Now if you mean that there are some people who pervert the teachings of the Koran, then i am with you on that....but that is not 1% or 10% of the whole Muslim population.
Um there's a difference ee because really it was Europeans who did the MAJORITY of the screwing over of the native Amerricans. I'm not gonna say that the newly formed American Nation didn't do its share but as a whole America has had a great record of progressiveness towards other people. as time goes on we have treated other people better and better. This can not be said for some nations and peoples

Round and round some people go BUT not America we've had many advances and while we have transgressed some we have one of the best records in the world of supporting the ideals of equality.
This message was brought to you by the Society for the Reinstitution of Natural Selection
Well we kinda left the Kurds to be gassed in Northern Iraq in the 1990's. And the US along with the rest of the world let a million people die in the Rwandan genocide of 1994. A ton of civilians died in Bosnia cause Nato flew its planes to high...Your right we are getting better than the Cold War, but on the whole Europe (exception of Belgium) has done a much better job of cleaning up its colonial mess than we have.

Do we deliberately try to kill people? No
Do a ton of people die from our inaction/mistakes? Yes

Actually the people who moved here had pretty much split of from Europe, but since your pushing it, lets talk about slavery and the hundreds of thousands of Africans we shipped here to be our slaves...

We the US, have done a ton of good in the world, and the world is overall a better place today than it was a century ago, but i wish more people understood that getting to this point has not been a clean journey at all. Its been very messy.
Post edited by Sparta at 8/7/2003 1:45:28 AM
Sparta, the differnce between America and the Koran is that America is not based on violence. Our forefathers did not say to kill anyone that is of a different nationality. What you are about to read is not a perversion of the Koran.. it is not someone "opinion" or interpretation - it is what the Koran says, in it's purest form.

You can verify this text and read more by going to a Koran website, such as this one at the University of Virginia.

--------------------------------


IV.89: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.


II.161: Surely those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers, these it is on whom is the curse of Allah and the angels and men all;


IX. 5-6: Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them.


IV.74: Let those who fight in the cause of God who barter the life of this world for that which is to come; for whoever fights on God's path, whether he is killed or triumphs, We will give him a handsome reward.


VIII.39-42: Say to the Infidels: if they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven; but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God's.



"There may be moderate Muslims, but Islam itself is not moderate. There is no difference between Islam and Islamic fundamentalism. At most there is a difference of degree but not of kind."

-- Ibn Warraq, executive director of the Institute for the Secularization of Islamic Society



Would you like me to post more?


The only peaceful Muslim is not true to the Islamic faith.
Post edited by Naut at 8/7/2003 2:46:48 AM
Wow...congratulations, Naut...everything you just posted can be found in exteremely similar wording in the Bible...kill the heretics, persecute the unbelievers, god will help you vanquish the unfaithful...so I guess the only peaceful Xian doesn't follow the Bible?

That's not one of your more worthy posts, old bean.

________________________________________________
You can lead a fool to wisdom, but you can't make him think.

Bravo, why are you talking about Christianity? That has NOTHING to do with the current discussion. You simply through in a distractor to try and get this thread sidetracked.. nice.

Start a thread claiming the Christian faith is based on violence and intolerance, and we can discuss this.

My point stands; A peaceful Muslim is not true to the Islamic faith.
Originally posted by: Naut
My point stands; A peaceful Muslim is not true to the Islamic faith.


My point also stands..that condemning an entire group of people because of what you, as an outsider, THINK they believe and practice is ignorant and foolish...and IMO borders on bigotry.

Edit: Before you flame me...I don't think you are a Bigot..intelligence makes bigotry impossible...but I think you are falling victim to some of the vitriolic crap bogots spew couched as benign fact.
Post edited by [Judge]Bravo_1 at 8/7/2003 3:02:15 AM

________________________________________________
You can lead a fool to wisdom, but you can't make him think.

Originally posted by: [Judge]Bravo_1
Originally posted by: Naut
My point stands; A peaceful Muslim is not true to the Islamic faith.


My point also stands..that condemning an entire group of people because of what you, as an outsider, THINK they believe and practice is ignorant and foolish...and IMO borders on bigotry.


Nope, sorry. This is not what I "think", or my interpretation. This is not me being ignorant of the facts because I am an "outsider." The Koran clearly states;

"Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them"

Now, if someone is true to the Islamic faith - and therefor they do what the Koran commands them to do - they are going to go kill those who join other gods wherever they may find them. THAT my friend is violence. That is religous genocide. It is not my opinion. This is black from white.

-Naut
Post edited by Naut at 8/7/2003 3:06:02 AM
Then your point is moot...You see, Muslims and Xians believe in the SAME God, not different ones. They just have differing theologies. The Qur'an mentions the virgin birth of Jesus from Mary, Jesus' return to earth to rule God's creations, and the fact that God is the creatore of heaven and earth. They don't see Jesus as PART of god, however, only as a prophet.
________________________________________________
You can lead a fool to wisdom, but you can't make him think.

Originally posted by: Sparta
Well we kinda left the Kurds to be gassed in Northern Iraq in the 1990's. And the US along with the rest of the world let a million people die in the Rwandan genocide of 1994. A ton of civilians died in Bosnia cause Nato flew its planes to high...Your right we are getting better than the Cold War, but on the whole Europe (exception of Belgium) has done a much better job of cleaning up its colonial mess than we have.


-----WTF….How are any of these massacres our fault? You mention a list of events we did not take part in and try blame it on the U.S. for not intervening. LOL...Why is everything that takes place throughout history our fault? When Rome fell I bet it was because of the nasty Americans also. I some how missed the point of your post, I guess.

When Somalian’s died it was the U.S. that acted for them. As millions die in Africa of Aids, it is the U.S. paying the lion’s share of the aid. When Civil Wars break out within countries it is again the U.S., time and time again, that steps in to help them out. By your standard, every event we didn’t step in is some how our fault? We are not some established group set up for these kinds of peace keeping dilemmas, isn’t that what the U.N. was set up for. -----

Actually the people who moved here had pretty much split of from Europe, but since your pushing it, lets talk about slavery and the hundreds of thousands of Africans we shipped here to be our slaves...

------Hmm…. the same slaves sold to us by fellow African’s? The same slaves purchased by numerous other European nations? ….We took them away from a life of being devoured by cannibalistic clans, killed by an epidemic disease, or simply starving to death…. People act like we went to Africa with a huge net and just caught us slaves, like they were fish. No one seems to ever place blame on the people originally selling the slaves. Most of which are still doing so in Africa today. Is slavery horrible? Yes, nothing can condone it. What are you getting at? Most of us are very familiar with History….Where do you live that makes America so evil?-----
Originally posted by: [Judge]Bravo_1
Then your point is moot...You see, Muslims and Xians believe in the SAME God, not different ones. They just have differing theologies. The Qur'an mentions the virgin birth of Jesus from Mary, Jesus' return to earth to rule God's creations, and the fact that God is the creatore of heaven and earth. They don't see Jesus as PART of god, however, only as a prophet.


..And this has to do with what? I did not say God was violent. I said the Islamic faith is violent, and it is. I have proven to you it is by posting direct citations from the Koran it'self in which it commands all followers to seize and murder people who do not praise Allah.

-Naut
Originally posted by: Mockery
...We took them away from a life of being devoured by cannibalistic clans, killed by an epidemic disease, or simply starving to death…....


WOW! So Slavery was doing Africans a FAVOR! Oh, thank goodness. How noble...taking in all those poor unfortunates and kiving them the chance to realize the American Dream of working in chains, being beaten on a daily basis, having no right to live if your owner felt you were no longer worthwhile, and being the property of another human being.

That is an ignorant, uneducated and ridiculous statement. Hmm...I think I'll go to New York and kidnap babies for work in Thai sweatshops...then they won't have to live with the hardships of worrying about terrorist attacks, handguns and West Nile.

What an unbelievable foolish statement.
________________________________________________
You can lead a fool to wisdom, but you can't make him think.

Mochery, do not even TRY to defend the ignorance of the United States when it comse to not taking part in intervention decades ago on the Iraqi crisis. We did take action thanks in part to our great President, George Bush. He has the balls and was willing to give up a little public relations to do the RIGHT thing.

Also, don't defense slavery. We didn't do them a favor.

-Drake