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HAMAS: The SCUMBAGS are still at it

Historical capture recovered from the Wayback Machine · captured 2003-06-06 · 29 posts
Bomb Explodes Near Bus Carrying Israelis
1 hour, 54 minutes ago


JERUSALEM - A pipe bomb went off Friday near an armored bus carrying Israelis in the Gaza Strip (news - web sites), injuring a passenger in an attack claimed by the Islamic militant group Hamas.


AFP
Slideshow: Mideast Conflict




It was the fifth Hamas bombing in a week, and came just a day after Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas met with Hamas leaders to try to persuade them to halt attacks on Israelis. Hamas said it would consider stopping attacks on civilians in Israel, but would continue targeting Israeli settlers and soldiers in the West Bank and Gaza.


The bus was traveling from the Jewish settlement of Netzarim in central Gaza to Israel with 15 people on board when the explosion went off. A woman was hurt by the explosion, and three other passengers were treated for shock, paramedics said.


The claim of responsibility was made during a Hamas rally in the Gaza refugee camp of Jabaliya. In the past week, 12 Israelis have been killed and dozens wounded in five suicide bombings, including four carried out by Hamas.




These people do not want peace. They have stated numerous times they want to kill all jews and destroy Isreal.

I truly hope Abbas can reign them in. But I think we are about to see the start of a civil war


This is from the HAMAS charter:

("Hamas" = "Harakat Muqawama Islamiyya", Islamic Resistance Movement)
Preamble:..."Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors." The Imam and Martyr Hasan al-Banna
Introduction: "...This is the Charter of the Islamic Resistance (Hamas) which will reveal its face, unveil its identity, state its position, clarify its purpose, discuss its hopes, call for support to its cause and reinforcement, and for joining its ranks. For our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all the loyal efforts we can wield, to be followed by further steps and reinforced by successive battalions from the multifarious Arab and Islamic world, until the enemies are defeated and Allah's victory prevails. Thus we shall perceive them approaching in the horizon, and this will be known before long: "Allah has decreed: Lo! I very shall conquer, I and my messengers, lo! Allah is strong, almighty."
Sura 58 (Al-Mujadilah), verse 21. http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/isreport/hamas.html


Post edited by ~~Snake~~ at 5/23/2003 9:09:08 AM
what the fuck would you do if canada occupied america?



ZU
They dont. Keep supporting Muslim terrorists Sealily. They will hopefully all be dead soon.

And us AMERICANS have morals. WE wouldnt blow up children and celebrate like the culture of Islam does. We don't dance in the streets when people are butchered. And we don't chant and preach DEATH to everyone because they have a different religion. Something you will never understand
Post edited by ~~Snake~~ at 5/23/2003 12:01:29 PM
Just another example of Sealily not understanding the conflict. HAMAS doesnt want peace, they want to kill all the jews and destroy Isreal. Is it because you live in some Muslim country, is that too hard for you to understand? They believe in MURDER and KILLING. I do want the Palestian people to get their state. But HAMAS is SCUM. And you supporting their tactics shows your level of morality or you not understanding the goal of Hamas


Post edited by ~~Snake~~ at 5/23/2003 11:10:57 AM
Well Today is the day we will see from here forward if the Palestinians want peace. This is the moment the Palestinians step forward and embrace peace or not. I TRULY hope Abbas can stop HAMAS and the other scumbag terrorists organizations. God Speed to him on accomplishing this








Sharon Accepts U.S.-Backed Peace Plan
14 minutes ago

By RAVI NESSMAN, Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM - After weeks of hesitation, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites) told the United States on Friday that he accepts a U.S.-backed peace plan that would create a Palestinian state within three years. Sharon said he will present the plan to his Cabinet for approval as early as Sunday.

Hamas Attacks Israeli Bus in Gaza Strip
(AP Video)

Sharon's statement came just hours after the Bush administration pledged to "fully and seriously" address Israel's concerns about the plan — though Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites) said Washington did not intend to change the road map.

The assurances from Bush aimed to spur momentum over the plan, which has stalled over the issue of how to stop violence. Israel wants the Palestinians to rein in militants before Israel moves on its obligations under the plan — though the road map calls for the steps to be taken in parallel.

With the U.S. statement, Sharon should be able to win a majority of support in his Cabinet, though hardline ministers and Jewish settler leaders strongly oppose the plan, said a Sharon adviser, Raanan Gissin.

The Israeli Cabinet will discuss the peace plan on Sunday or Monday, Gissin said.

Just hours after the White House assurance, Sharon's office said the prime minister "informed the United States that the state of Israel is prepared to accept the steps prescribed in the road map."

President Bush (news - web sites) called Sharon's announcement "progress" and said he was considering meeting the Israeli prime minister and his Palestinian counterpart, Mahmoud Abbas.

"If a meeting advances progress toward two states living side by side in peace, I will strongly consider such a meeting," Bush told reporters at his ranch in Crawford, Texas. "I'm committed to working toward peace in the Middle East."

Officials involved in planning a meeting said a gathering of the three leaders could take place in Egypt.


Post edited by ~~Snake~~ at 5/23/2003 1:52:01 PM
And the Markets are doing better partly based on this. GO BUSH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm unclear as to who Hamas realy is, can someone give me some info on this (real info, no "they're bad people blah blah" "No they're not, you're bad, blah blah" stuff).
http://www.ict.org.il/inter_ter/orgdet.cfm?orgid=13

HAMAS is an Islamic group thats stated Goal is the destruction of Isreal. They are a terrorist organization

The Hamas (a word meaning courage and bravery) is a radical Islamic organization which became active in the early stages of the Intifada, operating primarily in the Gaza Strip but also in the West Bank. The Hamas has played a major role in violent fundamentalist subversion and radical terrorist operations against both Israelis and Arabs. In its initial period, the movement was headed primarily by people identified with the Muslim Brotherhood (MB) in the Territories.

In the course of the Intifada, Hamas gained momentum, expanding its activity also in the West Bank, to become the dominant Islamic fundamentalist organization in the Territories. It defined its highest priority as Jihad (Holy War) for the liberation of Palestine and the establishment of an Islamic Palestine "from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River". By its participation in street violence and murder, it boosted its appeal in the eyes of the Palestinians, further enhancing its growth potential and enabling it to play a central role in the Intifada. As a result of its subversive and terrorist activity, Hamas was outlawed in September 1989.

After the Gulf War, Hamas has become the leading perpetrator of terrorist activity throughout the Territories as well as inside Israel. Today it is the second most powerful group, after Fatah, and is sometimes viewed as threatening the hegemony of the secular nationalists. It is currently the strongest opposition group to the peace process and the escalation of its terrorist activity through the murderous suicide bombings against civil targets in Israel in February-March 1996 has slowed down the political process and threatens to stop it altogether.

History
Hamas is the Arabic acronym for "The Islamic Resistance Movement" (Harakat al-Muqawamah al-Islamiyya). The organizational and ideological sources of Hamas can be found in the movement of the Muslim Brotherhood (MB) which was set up in the 1920s in Egypt and renewed and strengthened its activity in the 1960s and 1970s in the Arab world, mainly in Jordan and Egypt.
The Muslim Brothers were also active in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.
The cornerstone of the Muslim Brotherhood is the system of essentially social activity which they call Da'wah. In the twenty years preceding the Intifada, they built an impressive social, religious, educational and cultural infrastructure, which gave them a political stronghold, both in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. It was successful despite their lack of support for the nationalist policy of armed struggle.

The Hamas movement was legally registered in Israel in 1978 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the movementís spiritual leader, as an Islamic Association by the name Al-Mujamma Al Islami, which widened its base of supporters and sympathizers by religious propaganda and social work.
A great part of the success of Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood is due to their influence in the Gaza Strip. The large numbers of refugees, the socio-economic hardships of the population in the refugee camps and the relatively low status of the nationalist elements there until recently, enabled Hamas to deepen its roots among the refugees. Its emphasis on a solution that would include the liberation of all Palestine is more attractive to the Gazans, beyond the social factors that nourish the Islamic influence in that area.

Another factor, which served the popularity of the Islamic phenomena, was that the Palestinian nationalist movement and the PLO moved the center of their political power away from Palestine, by consolidating an external leadership at the expense of the internal one in the Territories. In contrast, the Islamic camp and its leadership developed entirely within Palestine (al-dakhil) and could thus better serve the interests of the Palestinians.

The Islamic infrastructure in the Territories was separate but parallel to the nationalist institutions built by the PLO in the 1980s. Hamas was successful in forming a social system which has provided an alternative to the social-political structure of the PLO. Hamasís prestige is based on both its ideological and practical capabilities, as a movement whose contribution to the daily life of the Palestinians is not less than its contribution to the struggle against Israel and the occupation.
The significant change in the Muslim Brotherhood movement was the transition from passivity towards the Israeli rule to militancy and large-scale violent activity, especially in and from the Gaza Strip. The movement changed its name to the Islamic Resistance Movement - Hamas, and emphasized its Palestinian character and patriotism. It professed to be not just a parallel force but an alternative to the almost absolute control of the PLO and its factions over the Palestinians in the Territories.

In August 1988 Hamas published the Islamic Covenant - its ideological credo, which presented its policy on all levels of the struggle, both against Israel and the national movement of the PLO. The Hamas Covenant challenged the PLO and its claim to be the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people, but it did not call for its elimination.
The means used by the Hamas to increase their influence in the street were the mosques. The mosque was the first stop on the road to civil rebellion. At the same time the Hamas leaders worked at setting up the various apparatuses of the movement. In the tradition of the Muslim Brotherhood, Sheikh Yassin built the Hamas as an underground movement. He decided to separate the different apparatuses and the area activists and use only encoded messages in the internal communications.

The military apparatus was called Mujahidin. At first, the leadership did not strive to large numbers of activists in the organization. The aim of the founders was to set up instruments of activity that will rely on a small number of central activists. But a new generation of street leaders emerged out of the complex structural system built by the MB over the years. This generation, obedient and full of religious fervor has become the spearhead of the Islamic struggle.

The Setting Up of the Izz Al-Din Al-Qassam Battalions

At the beginning of 1991 Zaccaria Walid Akel, the head of the terrorist section of the Hamas in Gaza, set up the first squads of the Izz Al-Din Al-Qassam Battalions. In its first stages the terrorist squads kidnapped and executed people suspected of cooperation with Israel. The murder of the Kfar Darom resident, Doron Shorshan in December 1991, was the first murder of an Israeli citizen done by a Izz Al-Din Al-Qassam squads, and marked the change in Hamasís modus operandi.


Ideology and Strategy
The basic ideology of Hamas is founded primarily on the mainstream of the Muslim Brotherhood. In the Islamic Covenant published by Hamas in August 1988, it defined itself as the "Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood".
However, there is a clear distinction in the order of priorities set forth by Hamas, as opposed to those of the Muslim Brotherhood in the Territories prior to the Intifada, particularly as regards the question of Jihad. The Muslim Brotherhood viewed Jihad as a general duty and principle and it maintained that Islam would be established first throughout the Muslim world, only later to be followed by violent Jihad against Israel, in which Palestine, too, would be liberated. Hamas stresses Jihad as the sole and immediate means to solve the problem of Palestine.

Hamas defines the transition to the stage of Jihad "for the liberation of all of Palestine" as a personal religious duty incumbent upon every Muslim. At the same time, it utterly rejects any political arrangement that would entail the relinquishment of any part of Palestine, which for it is tantamount to a surrender of part of Islam. These positions are reflected in the Covenant, and of course in its activities.

The central goal of Hamas is the establishment of an Islamic state in all of Palestine. The immediate means to achieve this goal is the escalation of the armed struggle, and ultimately all-out Jihad, with the participation not only of Palestinian Muslims but of the entire Islamic world.

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Structure
The structure of Hamas in Gaza and in the West Bank is based on a combination of regional and functional organization. In this framework, several identical, parallel frameworks operate in each region:
a. Infrastructure (Daíwah, literally ìsermonizing"), which engages in recruitment, distribution of funds, and appointments.
b. Popular violence in the framework of the Intifada.

c. Security (Aman) - the gathering of information on suspected collaborators with the authorities. This information is passed on to the "shock committees", who interrogate and then kill the suspects.

d. Publications (A-'Alam) - leaflets, propaganda, press offices.

Hamas tries to maintain a clear distinction between the covert activity of its various sections and its overt activity, which serves primarily to broaden the ranks of the movement. The major reason for this is Hamas' desire to increase compartimentation and secrecy, by not identifying itself directly with its public activity.
The term generally used by Hamas to define its overt activity is Da'wah. This term is also the name given to the Hamas section whose function is to broaden the movement's infrastructure, to distribute funds and make appointments. In fact, there is a large degree of overlapping (if not total identity) between the two.

Thus, Hamas is an organization composed of several interdependent levels. The popular-social base is maintained materially by the charity committees and ideologically through instruction, propaganda and incitement delivered in the mosques and other institutions and through leaflets. This base is the source for the recruitment of members into the units which engage in riots and popular violence.

Those who distinguish themselves in riots and popular violence sooner or later find their way into the military apparatus, which carries out brutal and violent attacks against Israelis and Palestinians alike. The militants (and, if they are arrested or killed, their families and relatives) enjoy the moral and economic backing of the preachers in the mosques, the directors of Hamas-affiliated institutions, and the charity committees.

The Military arm
From the outset, alongside the "popular" Intifada-related violence on the street level, Hamas run a military-terrorist arm, composed of two groups:

a. The Palestinian Holy Fighters (Al-Majahadoun Al-Falestinioun), a military apparatus for terrorist attacks, especially against Israeli targets. Before the outbreak of the Intifada, it engaged primarily in the preparation of the infrastructure for its activity.
b. The Security Section (Jehaz Aman), which gathered information on suspected collaborators with Israel and other local elements, with the intention of punishing them by the use of violence, including murder. To this end, units were formed within the framework of the Majd ñ an Arabic acronym for Majmouath Jihad u-Dawa (Holy War and Sermonizing Group), which was in effect the violent operational arm of the Security Section.

In the course of the Intifada, these groups took on various forms, the latest of which being the Izz al-Din al-Qassam hit squads.
Al-Majahadoun Al-Falestinioun

The groundwork for the founding of Al-Majahadoun Al-Falestinioun was laid in 1982 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, together with several operatives of Al-Majama. This included arms procurement and laying the groundwork for the struggle against Palestinian rivals, to be used later also against Israel. This activity was uncovered in 1984, and Yassin was sentenced to 13 years in prison but was released shortly afterwards as part of the Jibril prisoner exchange (May 1985).

Upon his release, Yassin resumed his work of setting up a military apparatus. At first, emphasis was placed on the struggle against 'heretics' and collaborators, in accordance with the view of the Muslim Brotherhood that Jihad should come only after the purging of rivals from within. At the same time, a military infrastructure was prepared, including the stockpiling of weapons for the war against Israel. Shortly before the outbreak of the Intifada, operatives were recruited to carry out the military Jihad. Organized military activity by this group, including regular terrorist attacks, became manifest only after the beginning of the Intifada.

Following the outbreak of the Intifada, the military apparatus carried out a large number of attacks of various kinds, including bombings and gunfire, mostly in the northern part of the Gaza District. These attacks reached their climax with the kidnapping and murder of IDF soldiers Avi Sasportas (February 1989) and Ilan Sa'adon (May 1989).

The Security Section and the Majd Units

The Security Section (Jehaz Aman) was established in early 1986 by Sheikh Yassin together with two of his associates, who were also active in Al-Majama. The role of the section was to conduct surveillance of suspected collaborators and other Palestinians who acted in a manner which ran counter to the principles of Islam (drug dealers, sellers of pornography, etc.). In late 1986 - early 1987, on the recommendation of the two heads of the security section, Yassin decided to set up hit squads, known as Majd, whose purpose was to kill 'heretics' and collaborators. Yassin instructed the leaders that they must kill anyone who admitted under interrogation to being a collaborator, and reinforced this instruction with a religious ruling.

This mode of action continued until the outbreak of the Intifada, when Hamasí approach underwent significant changes, leading to the beginning of organized military action against Israeli targets as well. The Majd units then became part of the Al-Majahadoun network.

The Izz al-Din al-Qassam Squads

The military apparatus of Hamas underwent several changes in the course of the Intifada, as a result of preventive measures and exposure by the Israeli forces following major terrorist attacks carried out by Hamas operatives. The last form which this apparatus has taken is the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Squads, which is responsible for most of the serious attacks carried out by Hamas since January 1, 1992. These squads include dozens of wanted suspects from Gaza. Some of these suspects began to operate in the West Bank as well, while recruiting Palestinians from this area to carry out attacks inside Israel (the murder of a border guard in Jerusalem and the planting of a car bomb in Ramat Efal, near Tel Aviv). Some members of these squads have been apprehended or killed, and some have fled to Egypt. Several dozen Hamas operatives remain active in the Territories, most of them members of the Izz al-Din al-Qassam squads.


Financing
Hamas enjoys strong financial backing. In fact, its rivals claim that this is major reason for its strength. Hamas receives financial support from unofficial bodies in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states, and recently also from Iran. These funds are distributed among the various groups and associations identified with the movement, and from them filter down to the operatives in the field.
A broad network of charity associations (Jamayath Hiriya) and committees (Lejan Zekath) operates in the Territories, on the basis of two Jordanian statutes: the Charity Association and Social Institutions Law, and the Charity Fund-Raising Regulations. Hamas makes extensive use of many of these charity associations and committees, which (together with the mosques, unions, etc.) also serve as the overt facade of the organization's activity, operating parallel to and serving its covert operations. The movement's ideology attributes great importance to the giving of charity (zekath, which is also one of the five basic principles of Islam). Giving charity can serve to bring the people closer to Islam and, as a result, to broaden the ranks of Hamas.

The network of charity associations serves as a screen for its covert activities, including liaison with the movement's leadership abroad, the transfer of funds to field operatives, and the identification of potential recruits. The great importance which Hamas attaches to the overt aspect of its operations - charity and welfare - has been particularly evident since the extensive arrest and exclusion of many of its operatives.

An important aspect of the charity associations and committees is their role as a means for the channeling of funds into the region. While part of these funds is in fact used for charity, it is not always possible to distinguish between the 'innocent' activity of the charity associations and the funding of covert, subversive and terrorist activity. Thus, for example, the associations pay fines and assist the families of operatives who are arrested, or the operatives themselves. Such donations are defined as charity, but are in fact given to the hard and active core of Hamas. The charity associations can also help in transfering funds to Hamas through their financial-administrative infrastructure.

The methods commonly used to transfer funds are through moneychangers, checks drawn on accounts of operatives and firms abroad, foreign business accounts of economic concerns in the Territories, and direct cash transfers from abroad, usually through Western banks (in Britain, the U.S. and Germany). The Islamic Movement in Israel also serves as a channel for the transfer of funds.

Sources of funding.
Estimating the amount of money reaching Hamas is complex task, but a modest estimate is several tens of millions of dollars per year.
Sources of funding abroad:

a. Official sources: the government of Iran contributes approximately 3 million dollars per year for all Hamas activities.
b. There are four central Hamas charity funds in the West: Great Britain - The Palestine Relief and Development Fund (Interpal); U.S.A. - the Holy Land Foundation; Germany - the Al Aqsa Foundation, with branches in Belgium and Holland; France - Comite de Bienfaisance et Solidarite avec la Palestine.

Funding from other Islamic organizations: (not Hamas):
a. Non-governmental charitable organizations in the Gulf states - generally, they collect charity for needy Muslims throughout the world, and as part of this effort they support Hamas and its social and welfare institutions.
b. Islamic aid agencies in the West - these rely on the Islamic community in the West, numbering about 15 million. Among these: Muslim Aid, and the Islamic Relief Agency - ISRA.

c. The Muslim Brotherhood - In the late 1980s the Brotherhood established the Muslim Aid Committee to the Palestinian Nation in order to aid Hamas.

Independent sources of funding in the Territories:
a. A small portion of Hamas funds come from a limited number of profitable economic projects: sewing and weaving centers, cattle farms, and symbolic payment for services.
b. Fund-raising campaigns throughout the Territories - heightened supervision by the U.S. and Egypt of the fund-raising in the Gulf states has encouraged this internal independent fund-raising method.

Israel:
a. The Islamic Movement in Israel has served as a channel for transferring money from foundations in the West. Since Israel closed two central bodies - the Committee for Aid to Orphans and Prisoners (November 1996) and Islamic Aid (in 1995) - use of this channel has decreased considerably.
b. Most of these foundations have representatives in the Territories and operate under an umbrella organization established in 1995.



The battle against financing:
Terrorist attacks and the uncovering of Hamas' financial apparatus have led Western intelligence operatives to begin monitoring its funding activity. Several countries (principally the U.S. and Great Britain) have announced their intent to frustrate Hamas fundraising efforts.
a. U.S. - a legislation package intended to hinder fundraising for terrorist organizations within U.S. territory. The governement has yet to exercise its power to act against these organizations.
b. Britain - Records of the Interpal relief foundation were examined, but "no concrete information was found linking it to terror organizations." It must be noted that the only material examined was that which the foundation itself submitted to the authorities.

c. Israel - illegalization: In May of this year, the Minister of Defense declared the four major foundations operating in the West to be illegal associations, as part of the Hamas activity outlawed in Israel. The movement's organ, Falestin al-Muslima, was outlawed as well.


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Leadership

Sheikh Ahmad Isma`il Yassin, was born in 1936 in the village of al-Jora near Ashquelon. At the age of 14 he was wounded during a soccer game and became partly paralyzed. Yassin finished his high-school studies in 1958 and in spite of his invalidity was accepted as teacher in one of the neighborhoods of Gaza.
Sheikh Yassin was received as member of the Muslim Brotherhood in Gaza in 1955, while it was a clandestine movement outlawed in Egypt, which controlled the Strip. In 1966 Sheikh Yassin was imprisoned during a month by the Egyptian authorities for subversive activity.

After the Six Day War and the loss of contact with Egypt, Sheikh Yassin gradually developed the infrastructure of the Muslim Brothers in the Gaza Strip in the social, economic and political field and pushed the militants of the organization to take control of the newly built Islamic University.

Yassin was the moving spirit behind the founding of the Hamas movement in December 1987 as the military arm of the Muslim Brotherhood.

He was arrested in 1984 and imprisoned for detention of weapons. He was later freed in the framework of an exchange of prisoners with Ahmad Jibril's PFLP - GC organization.

Sheikh Yassin, who headed Hamas until his arrest in May 1989, was responsible for most of the movement's activities: the writing of leaflets, financial affairs, liaison with radical Islamic elements abroad, and supervision of violent and terrorist activity. Under him, a broad organizational network was set up, comprising various functions and local leaders, which directed the political and Intifada-related work of the movement: distributing leaflets, organizing riots, enforcing strikes, etc.

Following the arrest of Sheikh Ahmad Yassin and other leading operatives from the Gaza District, the centralized Hamas leadership in the Territories was weakened. It was replaced by a backbone of senior leaders/operatives identified with the movement, who directed its activity in the different regions. They focused primarily on politics, propaganda, infrastructure, and inter-organizational liaison, while competing with Palestinian nationalists for election to positions of power in various bodies (such as trade unions).

Musa Mohammed Abu Marzuq was born in 1951, in the Rafah refugee camp in the Gaza Strip. He went to Egypt to study engineering and upon his return to Gaza became a close collaborator of Sheikh Ahmad Yassin, then the leader of the Muslim Brotherhood in the Strip. Abu Marzuq was among the founders of the Hamas movement in 1988.

In 1974 he left Gaza for the United States, where he continued his studies in engineering. Between 1981 and 1992 he lived with his family in Falls Church, Virginia.

In 1989 Abu Marzuq was elected the head of the Political Bureau of Hamas, which is the movement's most senior leadership body in decisions on central matters such as the policy of terrorist attacks, issuing directives to activists to operate in the Israel, in the Territories, and in Hamas areas of operation abroad.

Between the years 1990 and 1993 Abu Marzuq dispatched emissaries on a number of occasions to the Territories for the purpose of arranging and expanding the military activity of the Hamas. In this framework, he transferred funds to the Territories, for acquiring weapons to be used later to carry out terrorist attacks.

In 1989, Abu Marzuq arrived in Gaza, met with activists of the Hamas organization, appointed them to be responsible for organizing various apparatuses and determined the distribution of area responsibility within the Gaza Strip. He also issued detailed instructions for setting up an organizational infrastructure for Hamas, including terrorist actions. To finance this activity he transferrto the activists the sum of about $100,000.

In October 1992 Abu Marzuq headed a Hamas delegation to Tehran for the purpose of concluding a number of political and military cooperation agreements with Iran.

Abu Marzuq has also been instrumental in the organization's continuing relationship with the PLO. Subsequent to the Israel's expulsion of 413 Hamas and Islamic Jihad activists to southern Lebanon in late 1992, he acted as Hamas' chief representative in negotiations with the PLO in Tunis.

Subsequent to the Israeli-Jordanian peace agreement, in May of 1995, Abu Marzuq was ordered to leave Jordan by June 1, 1995. Working from Jordan, Abu Marzuq has been involved in coordinating Hamas terrorist attacks within Israel, including the April 1994 bombings in Afula and Hadera.

Abu Marzuq was arrested in New York on July 25, 1995 upon one of his trips back to the US. Israel asked his extradition and an American judge decided in May 1996 that he can be expelled for trial in Israel. But upon a decision of the Israeli government, Abu Marzuq was finally expelled to Jordan in May 1997.

Prominent religious leaders identified with Hamas have recently formed the Association of Religious Sages of Palestine (Rabitat 'Ulama' Filastin), which is to serve as a kind of supreme religious framework and to accord the movement 'legitimacy' through religious rulings that conform with the movement's ideology.

Hamas leaders residing abroad -- in Arab countries (primarily Jordan) and in the West (the U.S., Britain, and others) -- have also recently gained prominence.

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Terrorist Activity
In the beginning of the uprising the movement was particularly active in the field of subversion and resistance (street disturbances of the peace, trade strikes and etc)

During the period prior to the Intifada, Hamas members (in its earlier form of the Al-Mujama' al-Islami) operated primarily against local Palestinians, such as moral offenders and criminal elements, in order to purge Muslim society and to prepare it for Jihad against Israel. After the outbreak of the Intifada, the same people and new recruits began to assassinate Palestinians. In the course of the Intifada, Hamas operatives have admitted to 43 such attacks, in which 46 Palestinians were killed. On the basis of intelligence information, about 40 more murders of Palestinians can be attributed to Hamas members.

In the course of the Intifada, Hamas operatives also began to carry out terrorist attacks against Israeli targets. At first they resorted primarily to explosive charges and other 'popular' means (firebombs, arson and other property damage). In the course of 1989, they kidnapped and murdered two soldiers (Avi Sasportas and Ilan Sa'adon). In December 1990, three Israelis employed in a Jaffa factory were stabbed to death.

In 1992, Hamas operatives displayed even greater daring, especially the militants of the Izz al-Din al-Qassam squads, who fired on security personnel at short range, stabbed two Jews to death in a packing plant in the Gaza District, kidnapped and killed Nissim Toledano, and finally murdered a General Security Service (GSS) officer in a safehouse in Jerusalem.

Until his arrest Sheikh Yassin was involved in the activity of the terrorist branch as well as the activity of its other apparatuses to the smallest details. He supervised the recruitment of activists, organized them into squads, provided them with money, and most importantly took care of weapons and their distribution among the squads.

Attacks:

February 18, 1989 - Kidnapping and murder of IDF soldier Avi Sasportas.

May 4, 1989- Kidnapping and murder of IDF soldier Ilan Sa'adon.

July 28, 1990 - Marnie Kimelman, a Canadian tourist, was killed by a bomb on a Tel Aviv beach.

December 14, 1990 - Murder of three workers at an aluminum factory in Jaffa. One of the murderers was captured.

October 11, 1991 - Master Sargent Aaron Agmon Klijami and Sergeant Shmuel Michaeli were run over and killed at the Tel Hashomer soldiers' hitch-hiking station by a terrorist who deliberately drove a van into a queue of soldiers waiting for lifts. Eleven other soldiers were injured.

May 17, 1992 - A resident of Moshav Te'ashur, David Cohen, was shot and killed by fugitives from the Izz al-Din al-Qassam squad in Bet Le'he'ya in the Gaza District.

May 24, 1992 - Helena Rapp, a fifteen year old girl from Bat-Yam was stabbed to death by a Hamas activist from Nuseirat, Gaza District. The murderer was apprehended on the spot

May 27, 1992 - The rabbi of Darom village, in Gush Katif, Shimon Biran, was stabbed to death by a Hamas activist from Dir el-Balah, Gaza District. The assailant was apprehended. He admitted to affiliation with the Izz al-Din al-Qassam gang.

June 22, 1992 - Shots were fired from a speeding car at a police building in the Rimal district of Gaza by fugitives belonging to the Izz al-Din al-Qassam squad. A policeman and an Israeli civilian were injured.

June 25, 1992 - Moshe Bino from Ashkelon and Ami Zaltzman from Nes Ziona were stabbed to death in their packing-house near the Saja'i'a neighborhood in the Gaza District. The murders were perpetrated by the Izz al-Din al-Qassam squad.

June 25, 1992 - A resident of Ma'ale Levona was injured while travelling with his family to Jerusalem by an axe-wielding assailant from the village of Sanjiel. The assailant was shot and apprehended.

September 18, 1992 - IDF soldier, Alon Caravani, was kidnapped by members of the Izz al-Din al-Qassam squad who gave the hitch-hiking soldier a lift in their car. He was stabbed, and then thrown from the vehicle.

September 22, 1992 - A border policeman, Avinoam Peretz, was shot and killed at Shoefat junction, French Hill, Jerusalem. The murderer claimed that he had been recruited by the Izz al-Din al-Qassam squads.

October 21, 1992 - Shots were fired from a speeding car at an IDF vehicle at the southern entrance to Hebron. An IDF soldier and a woman officer were injured. The Izz al-Din al-Qassam squad took credit for the attack.

October 25, 1992 - Shots were fired from a speeding car at an IDF observation post near the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron. IDF reserve soldier Shmuel Geresh was killed and another soldier wounded. The Izz al-Din al-Qassam squad took credit for the attack.

November 20, 1992 - Activists from the Izz al-Din al-Qassam squad planned a car-bomb attack in a heavily populated area in the center of the country. The car was detected in Or Yehuda and, after a chase, the car was stopped and the bomb was defused. Two of the terrorists in the car were apprehended and admitted affiliation to the Izz al-Din al-Qassam squad.

December 7, 1992 - Shots were fired from a speeding car at an IDF vehicle on patrol on the Gaza bypass road, near Saja'i'a junction. The three IDF reserve soldiers in the vehicle were killed. The Izz al-Din al-Qassam squad took credit for the attack.

December 12, 1992 - Shots were fired at an army Jeep in Hebron. An IDF reserve soldier was killed and two others injured, one of them critically. The Izz al-Din al-Qassam squad took credit for the attack.

December 13, 1992 - Border policeman Nissim Toledano was kidnapped in Lod on his way from his home to his place of work in Border Police H.Q. A group of fugitives from the Izz al-Din al-Qassam squad took credit for the incident. They demanded the release of Hamas leader Sheikh Ahmad Yassin from prison. Nissim Toledano's body was later found near Jerusalem.

September 24, 1993 - Yigal Vaknin was stabbed to death in an orchard near the trailer hom19e where he lived near the village of Basra. A squad of the Hamas' Izz a-Din al Kassam claimed responsibility for the attack.

October 24, 1993 - Two IDF soldiers, Staff Sgt. (res.) Ehud Rot, age 35, and Sgt. Ilan Levi, age 23, were killed by a Hamas Izz a-Din al Kassam squad. The two entered a Subaru with Israeli license plates outside a Jewish settlement in the Gaza Strip, whose passengers were apparently terrorists disguised as Israelis. Following a brief struggle, the soldiers were shot at close range and killed. Hamas publicly claimed responsibility for the attack.

November 7, 1993 - Efraim Ayubi of Kfar Darom, Rabbi Chaim Druckman's pdriver, was shot to death by terrorists near Hebron. Hamas publicly claimed responsibility for the murder.

December 1, 1993 - Shalva Ozana, age 23, and Yitzhak Weinstock, age 19, were shot to death by terrorists from a moving vehicle, while parked on the side of the road to Ramallah because of engine trouble. Weinstock died of his wounds the following morning. Izz a-Din al Kassam claimed responsibility for the attack, stating that it was carried out in retaliation for the killing by Israeli forces of Imad Akel, a wanted Hamas leader in Gaza.

December 6, 1993 - Mordechai Lapid and his son Shalom Lapid, age 19, were shot to death by terrorists near Hebron. Hamas publicly claimed responsibility for the attack.

December 22, 1993 - Eliahu Levin and Meir Mendelovitch were killed by shots fired at their car from a passing vehicle in the Ramallah area. Hamas claimed responsibility.

December 24, 1993 - Lieut. Col. Meir Mintz, commander of the IDF special forces in the Gaza area, was shot and killed by terrorists in an ambush on his jeep at the T-junction in Gaza. The Hamas Izz a-Din al Kassam squads publicly claimed responsibility for the attack.

January 14, 1994 - Grigory Ivanov was stabbed to death by a terrorist in the industrial zone at the Erez junction, near the Gaza Strip. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

February 13, 1994 - Noam Cohen, age 28, member of the General Security Service, was shot and killed in an ambush on his car. Two of hiscolleagues who were also in the vehicle suffered moderate injuries. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

February 19, 1994 - Zipora Sasson, resident of Ariel and five months pregnant, was killed on the trans-Samaria highway in an ambush in which shots were fired at her car. The terrorists were members of Hamas.

April 6, 1994 - Asher Attia, 48, of Afula, bus driver; Vered Mordechai, 13, of Afula; Maya Elharar, 17, of Afula; Ilana Schreiber, 45, a teacher from Kibbutz Nir David; Meirav Ben-Moshe, 16, of Afula; Ayala Vahaba, 40, a teacher from Afula; and Fadiya Shalabi, 25, of Iksal were killed in a car-bomb attack on a bus in the center of Afula. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack. Ahuva Cohen Onalla, 37, wounded in the attack, died of her wounds on April 25.

April 7, 1994 - Yishai Gadassi, age 32 of Kvutzat Yavne, was shot and killed at a hitchhiking post at the Ashdod junction by a member of Hamas. The terrorist was killed by bystanders at the scene.

April 13, 1994 - Rahamim Mazgauker, 34, of Hadera; David Moyal, 26 of Ramat Gan, an Egged mechanic; Daga Perda, 44, who immigrated from Ethiopia in 1991; Bilha Butin, 49, of Hadera; and Sgt. Ari Perlmutter, 19, of Ir Ovot in the Arava were killed in a suicide bombing attack on a bus in the central bus station of Hadera. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

May 20, 1994 - Staff Sgt. Moshe Bukra, 30, and Cpl. Erez Ben-Baruch, 24, were shot dead by Hamas terrorists at a roadblock one kilometer south of the Erez checkpoint in the Gaza Strip.

July 19, 1994 - Lt. Guy Ovadia, 23, of Kibbutz Yotvata, was fatally wounded in an ambush near Rafiah. Hamas took responsibility for the attack, saying it was "a response to the massacre at the Erez checkpoint".August 14, 1994 - Ron Soval, 18, of Lehavim, north of Beersheba, was shot to death in an ambush near Kissufim junction in the Gaza Strip. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack

October 9, 1994 - Ma'ayan Levy, 19, an off-duty soldier from Moshav Beit Zayit and Samir Mugrabi, 35, from Kafr Akab, in north Jerusalem, were killed in a terrorist attack in the Nahalat Shiva section of downtown Jerusalem. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

October 14, 1994 - Cpl. Nahshon Wachsman, 20, who had been abducted by Hamas, was murdered by his captors. Capt. Nir Poraz, 23, was killed in the course of the unsuccessful IDF rescue operation to obtain his release.

October 19, 1994 - In a suicide bombing attack on the No. 5 bus on Dizengoff Street in Tel-Aviv, 21 Israelis and one Dutch national were killed: Haviv Tishbi, 54, of Tel Aviv; Moshe Gardinger, 83, of Tel Aviv; Pnina Rapaport, 74, of Tel Aviv; Galit Rosen, 23, of Holon; Zippora Ariel, 64, of Tel Aviv; David Lida, 74, of Tel Aviv; Puah Yedgar, 56, of Givatayim; Dalia Ashkenazi, 62, of Tel; Aviv Esther Sharon, 21, of Lod; Ofra Ben-Naim, 33, of Lod; Tamar Karlibach-Sapir, 24, of Moshav Zafaria; Shira Meroz-Kot, 20, of Kibbutz Beit Hashita; Miriam Adaf, 54, ofSderot; Anat Rosen, 21, of Ra'anana; Salah Ovadia, 52, of Holon; Eliahu Wasserman, 66, of Bat Yam; Alexandra Sapirstein, 55, of Holon; Dr. Pierre Atlas, 56, of Kiryat Ono; Ella Volkov, 21, of Safed; Ayelet Langer-Alkobi, 26, of Kibbutz Yiron; Kochava Biton, 59, of Tel Aviv; Rinier Yurest, 23, of the Netherlands.

November 19, 1994 - Sgt.-Maj. Gil Dadon, 26, of Bat Yam, was killed at the army post at Netzarim junction by shots fired from a passing car. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

January 22, 1995 - Two consecutive bombs exploded at the Beit Lid junction near Netanya, killing 18 soldiers and one civilian. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack. This was in fact a common operation by Hamas and Islamic Jihad.
The soldiers killed were: Lt. David Ben-Zino, 20, of Ashdod; Lt. Adi Rosen, 20, of Moshav Bitzaron; Lt. Yuval Tuvya, 22, of Jerusalem; Sgt.-Maj. Anan Kadur, 24, of Daliat al-Carmel; Staff-Sgt. Damian Rosovski, 20, of Kadima; Staff-Sgt. Yehiel Sharvit, 21, of Haifa; Staff-Sgt. Yaron Blum, 20, of Jerusalem; Sgt. MayaKopstein, 19, of Jerusalem; Sgt. Daniel Tzikuashvili, 19, of Jerusalem; Sgt. Avi Salto, 19, of Rishon Lezion; Sgt. Rafael Mizrahi, 19, of Ramat Gan; Sgt. Eran Gueta, 20, of Ashkelon; Cpl. Soli Mizrahi, 18, of Ramat Ramat Gan; Cpl. David Hasson, 18, of Ashkelon; Cpl. Amir Hirschenson, 18, of Jerusalem; Cpl. Gilad Gaon, 18, of Herzliya; Cpl. Ilie Dagan, 18, of Kochav Yair; Cpl. Eitan Peretz, 18, of Nahariya; and Shabtai Mahpud, 34, of Moshav Tnuvot. Lt. Eyal Levy, 20, of Ashdod, and Cpl. Yaniv Weiser, 18, of Givatayim, who were seriously wounded in the attacks, later died of their wounds.

July 24, 1995 - Moshe Shkedi, 75, of Ramat Gan; Rahel Tamari, 65, of Tel Aviv; Zviya Cohen, 62, of Tel Aviv; Zahava Oren, 60, of Tel Aviv; Nehama Lubowitz, 61, of Tel Aviv; and Mordechai Tovia, 37, of Tel Aviv were killed in a suicide bomb attack on a bus in Ramat Gan.

August 21, 1995 - Rivka Cohen, 26, of Jerusalem; Hannah Naeh, 56, of Jerusalem; Joan Davenney, 46, of Connecticut; and Police Chief Superintendent Noam Eisenman, 35, of Jerusalem were killed in a suicide bombing of a Jerusalem bus.

February 25, 1996 - In a suicide bombing of bus No. 18 near the Central Bus Station in Jerusalem, 26 were killed (17 civilians and 9 soldiers).The civilians: Daniel Biton, 42; Yitzhak Elbaz, 57, Boris Sharpolinsky, 64; Semion Trakashvili, 60; Yitzhak Yakhnis, 54; Peretz Gantz, 61; Anatoly and Jana Kushnirov, 36 and 37; Masuda Amar, 59; Swietlana Gelezniak, 32; Celine Zaguri, 19 - all of Jerusalem; Navon Shabo, 22, of Bnei Brak; Michael Yerigin, 16, of Kibbutz Maabarot; Matthew Eisenfeld, 25 and Sara Duker, 23, of the United States. Wael Kawasmeh, 23, of East Jerusalem, and Ira Yitzhak Weinstein, 53, of Maaleh Adumim, later died of their wounds.The soldiers: Sgt. Yonatan Barnea, 20; St-Sgt. Gavriel Krauss, 24; St.-Sgt. Gadi Shiloni, 22; Cpl. Moshe Reuven, 19; St.-Sgt. Maj. (res.) Arye Barashi, 39; Cpl. Iliya Nimotin, 19; Cpl. Merav Nahum, 19; Sgt. Sharon Hanuka, 19; Arik Gaby, 16 (student in pre-army boarding school) - all of Jerusalem.
Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

February 25, 1996 - Sgt. Hofit Ayyash, 20, of Ashdod was killed in an explosion set off by a suicide bomber at a hitchhiking post outside Ashkelon. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

March 3, 1996 - In a suicide bombing of bus No. 18 on Jaffa Road in Jerusalem, 19 were killed (16 civilians and 3 soldiers). The civilians: Maya Birkan, 59; Naima Zargary, 66; Gavriel Shamashvili, 43; Shemtov Sheikh, 63; Anna Shingeloff, 36; Raya Daushvili, 55; George Yonan, 38 - all of Jeru; Sarina Angel, 45, of Beit Jalla; Gidi Taspanish, 23, a tourist from Ethiopia; Valerian Krasyon, 44, a tourist from Romania; Dominic Lunca, 29; Daniel Patenka, 33; Marian Grefan, 40; Mirze Gifa, 39; Dimitru Kokarascu, 43 - all Romanian workers. Imar Ambrose, 51, of Romania, died on March 9.The soldiers: Sgt. Yoni Levy, 21, of Jerusalem; Sgt. Haim Amedi, 19, of Jerusalem; Senior NCO Uzi Cohen, 54, border policeman of Jerusalem.

March 21, 1997 - Michal Avrahami, 32, Yael Gilad, 32, and Anat Winter-Rosen, 32, were killed when a suicide bomber detonated a bomb on the terrace of a Tel Aviv cafe. 48 people were wounded.

April 10, 1997 - The body of IDF Staff-Sgt. Sharon Edri, missing for seven months, was found buried near the West Bank village of Kfar Tzurif. Edri had been kidnapped and murdered by a Hamas terrorist cell in September 1996 while hitchhiking to his home in Moshav Zanoah.

July 30, 1997 - 13 people were killed and 170 wounded in two consecutive suicide bombings in the Mahane Yehuda market in Jerusalem. The names of 8 victims: David Nasko, 44, of Mevaseret Zion; Sami Shmuel Malka, 44, of Mevaseret Zion; Simha Fremd, 92 of Jerusalem; Razalla Tazkatro, 80, of Jerusalem; Valentina Koblenko, 67, of Jerusalem; Lev Baseitnik, 60, of Jerusalem, Golan Shalom Zevulun, 52, of Jerusalem; Mohi Adin Osman, 33, of Abu Ghosh.

July 30, 1997 - 16 people were killed and 178 wounded in two consecutive suicide bombings in the Mahane Yehuda market in Jerusalem: Lev Desyatnik, 60, of Jerusalem; Regina Giber, 76, of Jerusalem; Valentina Kovalenko, 67, of Jerusalem; Shmuel Malka, 44, of Mevaseret Zion; David Nasco, 44, of Mevaseret Zion; Muhi A-din Othman, 33, of Abu Ghosh; Simha Fremd, 92, of Jerusalem; Grisha Paskhovitz, 15, of Jerusalem; Leah Stern, 50, of Jerusalem; Rachel Tejgatrio, 80, of Jerusalem; Liliya Zelezniak, 47, of Jerusalem; Shalom (Golan) Zevulun, 52, of Jerusalem; Mark Rabinowitz, 80, of Jerusalem. Eli Adourian, 49, of Kfar Adumim, died of his wounds on August 11. Ilia Gazrach, 73, of Pisgat Ze'ev, died on August 29. Baruch Ostrovsky, 84, of Jerusalem died on October 3.

September 4, 1997 - Five people were killed and 181 wounded in three suicide bombings on the Ben-Yehuda pedestrian mall in Jerusalem. The victims: Yael Botwin, 14; Sivan Zarka, 14; Smadar Elhanan, 14; Rami Kozashvili, 20; and Eliahu Markowitz, 40 - all of Jerusalem


Post edited by ~~Snake~~ at 5/23/2003 2:26:44 PM
Hope that is what you wanted Cobalt. hehe. Its factual info about HAMAS.


But both sides agreed to the peace proposal today. This is a great day if they can implement it. yeehaww.
Post edited by ~~Snake~~ at 5/23/2003 3:25:34 PM
Originally posted by: ZUSeaLily

what the fuck would you do if canada occupied america?



W - T - F???

Faken

Originally posted by: ZUSeaLily

what the fuck would you do if canada occupied america?



thats not a fair comparision and you know it. isreal did not invade palistan and take it over.
Post edited by Juzfugen at 5/23/2003 3:41:56 PM



Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.
George Bernard Shaw
Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~

Hope that is what you wanted Cobalt. hehe. Its factual info about HAMAS.


Snake,

This isn't intended to jump down your throat about your views, so don't take it that way.

When reporting about "factual" information, you have to consider the source. What you posted about Hamas may be true. However, I have to note that the "authority" you cited is a counter-terrorist organization based out of Israel. From an academic/debate/journalistic point of view, that casts reasonable doubt on the bias and "spin" on your information. There are equally legitimate organizations out there in the Arab world who consider groups like Hamas involved in a war of Palestinian liberation in an effort to drive Israeli invaders from a people's homeland, and given Israel's insistance on using full military force without regard for innocent civilian life, it is believed that the war must be taken to the Israeli populace in order that they might understand the circumstances they are imposing on Palestine.

I'm not saying that's my personal point of view, by the way, so don't even accuse me of going there. What I am saying is that there are multiple angles on every issue, and if you are truly interested in factual information about the group, you'll consider multiple sources from multiple authorities and multiple degrees of interest.

Put another way, I have a very hard time envisioning an Israeli organization concerned with counter-terrorism being any more neutral and unbiased than, say, Al-Jazeera. I would give your information a LOT more credence if it came from, say, the United Nations, CNN or Amnesty International. To be safest, though, cite multiple sources who not only seem not to be biased, but who actually have a vested interest in remaining neutral and unbiased.

For instance, info on Hamas can be found at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/978626.stm (BBC News) or http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/hamas.htm (Federation of American Scientists, a fascinating site with TONS of info about US and foreign NBC and conventional weapons and vehicles. Worth a look!! This site also has a link to a translation of Hamas's charter.)

Basically, though, if you want to argue a point effectively, you have to argue in terms acceptable to the person you are trying to sway. Telling an atheist that God exists because the Bible says so is a waste of time because an atheist doesn't belive the Bible to hold any credibility. You have to base your argument in secular philosophy and science. For instance, my argument against Darwin and natural selection doesn't involve the book of Genesis from the Bible. Instead, I simply point out that there are far too many stupid people out there for the gene pool to have cleansed itself, even after all these thousands upon thousands of years

Sorry for the rant, but Snake, man, if you want to sound at all like anything more than a mouthpiece for the conservative wing of the Republican Party, you have to start using sources that don't come straight out of Dick Cheney's wallet.
Originally posted by: ZUSeaLily

what the fuck would you do if canada occupied america?



Kick Faken's ass?
 
Originally posted by: reimero

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~

Hope that is what you wanted Cobalt. hehe. Its factual info about HAMAS.


Snake,

This isn't intended to jump down your throat about your views, so don't take it that way.

When reporting about "factual" information, you have to consider the source. What you posted about Hamas may be true. However, I have to note that the "authority" you cited is a counter-terrorist organization based out of Israel. From an academic/debate/journalistic point of view, that casts reasonable doubt on the bias and "spin" on your information. There are equally legitimate organizations out there in the Arab world who consider groups like Hamas involved in a war of Palestinian liberation in an effort to drive Israeli invaders from a people's homeland, and given Israel's insistance on using full military force without regard for innocent civilian life, it is believed that the war must be taken to the Israeli populace in order that they might understand the circumstances they are imposing on Palestine.

I'm not saying that's my personal point of view, by the way, so don't even accuse me of going there. What I am saying is that there are multiple angles on every issue, and if you are truly interested in factual information about the group, you'll consider multiple sources from multiple authorities and multiple degrees of interest.

Put another way, I have a very hard time envisioning an Israeli organization concerned with counter-terrorism being any more neutral and unbiased than, say, Al-Jazeera. I would give your information a LOT more credence if it came from, say, the United Nations, CNN or Amnesty International. To be safest, though, cite multiple sources who not only seem not to be biased, but who actually have a vested interest in remaining neutral and unbiased.

For instance, info on Hamas can be found at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/978626.stm (BBC News) or http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/hamas.htm (Federation of American Scientists, a fascinating site with TONS of info about US and foreign NBC and conventional weapons and vehicles. Worth a look!! This site also has a link to a translation of Hamas's charter.)

Basically, though, if you want to argue a point effectively, you have to argue in terms acceptable to the person you are trying to sway. Telling an atheist that God exists because the Bible says so is a waste of time because an atheist doesn't belive the Bible to hold any credibility. You have to base your argument in secular philosophy and science. For instance, my argument against Darwin and natural selection doesn't involve the book of Genesis from the Bible. Instead, I simply point out that there are far too many stupid people out there for the gene pool to have cleansed itself, even after all these thousands upon thousands of years

Sorry for the rant, but Snake, man, if you want to sound at all like anything more than a mouthpiece for the conservative wing of the Republican Party, you have to start using sources that don't come straight out of Dick Cheney's wallet.


Show me these organizations that you are talking about?? And your comments about Dick Cheneys wallet are really bad retorts. Show me your sources that are paid for by Dick Cheney. You liberals are so afraid of the truth its funny. You are born cynics. I think my source is 100% accurate. If you would like to dispute it, go ahead. I can find 500 other ones that will say the same thing.

I am not tryin to insult you. But when ever someone posts anything against what you liberals dont like, you come back with dick cheney this or Bush that.

HAMAS is pure shit. They will either stop the terror or we will be pissing on their graves. Its that simple.
Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
Show me these organizations that you are talking about?? And your comments about Dick Cheneys wallet are really bad retorts. Show me your sources that are paid for by Dick Cheney. You liberals are so afraid of the truth its funny. You are born cynics. I think my source is 100% accurate. If you would like to dispute it, go ahead. I can find 500 other ones that will say the same thing.

I am not tryin to insult you. But when ever someone posts anything against what you liberals dont like, you come back with dick cheney this or Bush that.


Liberal, huh? No, man, you're mixing up your facts. I am NOT a liberal by any stretch of the imagination. You're throwing around accusations in spite of the fact that I was trying to help you formulate more convincing arguments.

If you must know, I'm moderately known in local Republican circles. I'm not going to name-drop, but I interned for a Republican senator, volunteered for the Republican candidate in a congressional campaign and have been involved with other similar political activities at the local level. AND I have some pretty good connections within the party.

I have no evidence of Dick Cheney bankrolling your sources, that was a tongue-in-cheek remark taken the wrong way. My points are twofold:
1. Don't go slapping labels on people when you don't know the real deal;
2. You don't win debates by using sources that people who disagree with you won't acknowledge as being valid. Maybe the source you cited is perfectly correct, that's fine. My point is that some people who disagree with you are going to call that source into question, and if you want to counter that (beyond using tactics like calling them "liberals" or "un-American" or "French" or something... and again, I'm not accusing you directly of using any term other than "liberal") you need to be aware of your sources and you need to refer them to sources which are regarded as being more objectively neutral.

Basically, if you don't, you'll end up spouting all you want and people who don't agree with you won't take you seriously because you're impossible to talk to and invariably end up using circular arguments. If you haven't taken college-level writing, this will probably be discussed. It's a tenet of arguing effectively.

Finally, if you had looked at the sources I cited, you'd find that they say essentially the same thing your source does, but in varying degrees of detail. The difference is that Average Joe on the Street is going to believe the BBC or a scientific group is far less biased toward Hamas than an Israeli counter-terrorist group, and therefore more credible.

You don't have to listen to what I'm saying. You can disregard my advice. But I guarantee that if you actually pay attention to what I'm saying, regardless of whose side you're on, you are going to make your point a lot more effectively and people will think you're intelligent and well-informed, and not some idiot who blindly parrots whatever his ideological leadership feeds him.

I guarantee that what I'm about to say will offend you. Deeply. But there is no difference between taking the undiluted conservative line and holding it as gospel and taking the North Korean News Agency's reports about all of Kim Jong-Il's "miracles" at face value. Most of us outside North Korea know that he's unstable (to say the least) and take those reports with a grain of salt because they're pure spin. If you think that political leadership - ANY political leadership - is giving you the honest, undiluted, unspun truth, you're deluding yourself. EVERYTHING is spun in some way or another, but at least we're encouraged to think for ourselves.

I just told you what it's going to take to become an effective debator. I never said our administration is right or wrong. I never said I back Palestine or Israel. I never stated that Hamas isn't a terrorist organization. All I told you is what any good writing instructor would tell you about arguing or defending a point.

And let's lay off the personal attacks.
Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~

Originally posted by: reimero

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~

Hope that is what you wanted Cobalt. hehe. Its factual info about HAMAS.


Snake,

This isn't intended to jump down your throat about your views, so don't take it that way.

When reporting about "factual" information, you have to consider the source. What you posted about Hamas may be true. However, I have to note that the "authority" you cited is a counter-terrorist organization based out of Israel. From an academic/debate/journalistic point of view, that casts reasonable doubt on the bias and "spin" on your information. There are equally legitimate organizations out there in the Arab world who consider groups like Hamas involved in a war of Palestinian liberation in an effort to drive Israeli invaders from a people's homeland, and given Israel's insistance on using full military force without regard for innocent civilian life, it is believed that the war must be taken to the Israeli populace in order that they might understand the circumstances they are imposing on Palestine.

I'm not saying that's my personal point of view, by the way, so don't even accuse me of going there. What I am saying is that there are multiple angles on every issue, and if you are truly interested in factual information about the group, you'll consider multiple sources from multiple authorities and multiple degrees of interest.

Put another way, I have a very hard time envisioning an Israeli organization concerned with counter-terrorism being any more neutral and unbiased than, say, Al-Jazeera. I would give your information a LOT more credence if it came from, say, the United Nations, CNN or Amnesty International. To be safest, though, cite multiple sources who not only seem not to be biased, but who actually have a vested interest in remaining neutral and unbiased.

For instance, info on Hamas can be found at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/978626.stm (BBC News) or http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/hamas.htm (Federation of American Scientists, a fascinating site with TONS of info about US and foreign NBC and conventional weapons and vehicles. Worth a look!! This site also has a link to a translation of Hamas's charter.)

Basically, though, if you want to argue a point effectively, you have to argue in terms acceptable to the person you are trying to sway. Telling an atheist that God exists because the Bible says so is a waste of time because an atheist doesn't belive the Bible to hold any credibility. You have to base your argument in secular philosophy and science. For instance, my argument against Darwin and natural selection doesn't involve the book of Genesis from the Bible. Instead, I simply point out that there are far too many stupid people out there for the gene pool to have cleansed itself, even after all these thousands upon thousands of years

Sorry for the rant, but Snake, man, if you want to sound at all like anything more than a mouthpiece for the conservative wing of the Republican Party, you have to start using sources that don't come straight out of Dick Cheney's wallet.


Show me these organizations that you are talking about?? And your comments about Dick Cheneys wallet are really bad retorts. Show me your sources that are paid for by Dick Cheney. You liberals are so afraid of the truth its funny. You are born cynics. I think my source is 100% accurate. If you would like to dispute it, go ahead. I can find 500 other ones that will say the same thing.

I am not tryin to insult you. But when ever someone posts anything against what you liberals dont like, you come back with dick cheney this or Bush that.

HAMAS is pure shit. They will either stop the terror or we will be pissing on their graves. Its that simple.


Does anyone else find it funny that Snake always asks for sources from others but when he is asked to provide them he just says "Go find them yourself, I am not wasting my time doing it"?
As for personal attacks talk with Sealily. I dont think you need to throw any 2cents in unless you know how she continually is insulting.

I know my facts very well. Thank you. I appeciate your input, but dealing with a multitude of people is what I do daily. I don't really care if some liberal doesn't heed what I say. I am stating facts. I am not going to sugar coat them. I took many debate and writing classes. My only goal is posting the truth. Like it or don't.
Post edited by ~~Snake~~ at 5/23/2003 6:17:22 PM
I didnt need to post any sources 13Psi- when someone states that dick cheney pays these sites, etc. I asked him too. I have always posted mine. Maybe you should try to understand the difference! Show me in my post where I didnt?

HAMAS is PISS. Anyone who thinks they offer anything good can go tell that to the families of the victims they slaughted.
Post edited by ~~Snake~~ at 5/23/2003 6:20:40 PM
Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
I think my source is 100% accurate.


It's anti-Muslim, of course it's accurate!!

/end sarcasm
Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
HAMAS is PISS. Anyone who thinks they offer anything good can go tell that to the families of the victims they slaughted.


By that same token, what has Israel provided for Palestinians that they should be thankful for, except pain and suffering. Perhaps we should start stereotyping Israelis as you do Muslims...
no one is backing up the palestine goverment sure some oil companies are supporting the terrorist groups but no one is giving any money to the palestine goverment if we gave them the money we gave isreal im sure the palestinian police force would be able to control these bombers better. you also have to take it from these extremist's point of view

Your buddies just got locked up by the Israeli army you hear that the refugee camp your uncle was in being raided. You want retailiation who are you going to choose?
1. The well equiped Israeli army with body armor, helicopters, tanks and apcs. You'll get shot before you even get close.
2.This nice undefended bus full of Israelis.

Saddly they only have bombs since it is the cheapest and deadliest weapon. It wouldn't do much effect on that 2inch titanium coating on that army vehicle but it sure will do alot of damage in that mall over ther. Of course they are going to go for the civilians.
BULLSHIT. I dont have to TAKE it from an Extremist view. They are FUCKIN SCUM. There is NO VIEW from their point of view. FUCK THEM. They butcher and kill and celebrate. They teach hate to children. The only view I see is right and wrong, and killing civilians such as HAMAS has is wrong.
Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~

Originally posted by: reimero

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
acutally Israel is regarded as having one of the most objectionate medias in the world. FACT. they critizize their military sometimes more then the rest of the world, so Snake can use Israeli information to make an objectionate fact
Hope that is what you wanted Cobalt. hehe. Its factual info about HAMAS.


Snake,

This isn't intended to jump down your throat about your views, so don't take it that way.

When reporting about "factual" information, you have to consider the source. What you posted about Hamas may be true. However, I have to note that the "authority" you cited is a counter-terrorist organization based out of Israel. From an academic/debate/journalistic point of view, that casts reasonable doubt on the bias and "spin" on your information. There are equally legitimate organizations out there in the Arab world who consider groups like Hamas involved in a war of Palestinian liberation in an effort to drive Israeli invaders from a people's homeland, and given Israel's insistance on using full military force without regard for innocent civilian life, it is believed that the war must be taken to the Israeli populace in order that they might understand the circumstances they are imposing on Palestine.

I'm not saying that's my personal point of view, by the way, so don't even accuse me of going there. What I am saying is that there are multiple angles on every issue, and if you are truly interested in factual information about the group, you'll consider multiple sources from multiple authorities and multiple degrees of interest.

Put another way, I have a very hard time envisioning an Israeli organization concerned with counter-terrorism being any more neutral and unbiased than, say, Al-Jazeera. I would give your information a LOT more credence if it came from, say, the United Nations, CNN or Amnesty International. To be safest, though, cite multiple sources who not only seem not to be biased, but who actually have a vested interest in remaining neutral and unbiased.

For instance, info on Hamas can be found at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/978626.stm (BBC News) or http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/hamas.htm (Federation of American Scientists, a fascinating site with TONS of info about US and foreign NBC and conventional weapons and vehicles. Worth a look!! This site also has a link to a translation of Hamas's charter.)

Basically, though, if you want to argue a point effectively, you have to argue in terms acceptable to the person you are trying to sway. Telling an atheist that God exists because the Bible says so is a waste of time because an atheist doesn't belive the Bible to hold any credibility. You have to base your argument in secular philosophy and science. For instance, my argument against Darwin and natural selection doesn't involve the book of Genesis from the Bible. Instead, I simply point out that there are far too many stupid people out there for the gene pool to have cleansed itself, even after all these thousands upon thousands of years

Sorry for the rant, but Snake, man, if you want to sound at all like anything more than a mouthpiece for the conservative wing of the Republican Party, you have to start using sources that don't come straight out of Dick Cheney's wallet.


Show me these organizations that you are talking about?? And your comments about Dick Cheneys wallet are really bad retorts. Show me your sources that are paid for by Dick Cheney. You liberals are so afraid of the truth its funny. You are born cynics. I think my source is 100% accurate. If you would like to dispute it, go ahead. I can find 500 other ones that will say the same thing.

I am not tryin to insult you. But when ever someone posts anything against what you liberals dont like, you come back with dick cheney this or Bush that.

HAMAS is pure shit. They will either stop the terror or we will be pissing on their graves. Its that simple.
Israel has one of the most objectionate Medias in the world. their scholars are exactly that scholars who go by facts and not extremist propganda. A report using Israeli-based information is entirely credible.
Originally posted by: scout45

no one is backing up the palestine goverment sure some oil companies are supporting the terrorist groups but no one is giving any money to the palestine goverment if we gave them the money we gave isreal im sure the palestinian police force would be able to control these bombers better. you also have to take it from these extremist's point of view

Your buddies just got locked up by the Israeli army you hear that the refugee camp your uncle was in being raided. You want retailiation who are you going to choose?
1. The well equiped Israeli army with body armor, helicopters, tanks and apcs. You'll get shot before you even get close.
2.This nice undefended bus full of Israelis.

Saddly they only have bombs since it is the cheapest and deadliest weapon. It wouldn't do much effect on that 2inch titanium coating on that army vehicle but it sure will do alot of damage in that mall over ther. Of course they are going to go for the civilians.

actually they have m-16's, grenades, and unguided rockets, they dont have to resort to suicide bombing! when the Jews were fighting the British in the 1940's to kick them out of Palestine did they send suicide bombers to London to blow up civilians? NO! they blew up the military command center of the British Army which was the King David hotel and teh brits ran home screaming
Originally posted by: Gen.ArielSharon

Originally posted by: scout45

no one is backing up the palestine goverment sure some oil companies are supporting the terrorist groups but no one is giving any money to the palestine goverment if we gave them the money we gave isreal im sure the palestinian police force would be able to control these bombers better. you also have to take it from these extremist's point of view

Your buddies just got locked up by the Israeli army you hear that the refugee camp your uncle was in being raided. You want retailiation who are you going to choose?
1. The well equiped Israeli army with body armor, helicopters, tanks and apcs. You'll get shot before you even get close.
2.This nice undefended bus full of Israelis.

Saddly they only have bombs since it is the cheapest and deadliest weapon. It wouldn't do much effect on that 2inch titanium coating on that army vehicle but it sure will do alot of damage in that mall over ther. Of course they are going to go for the civilians.

actually they have m-16's, grenades, and unguided rockets, they dont have to resort to suicide bombing! when the Jews were fighting the British in the 1940's to kick them out of Palestine did they send suicide bombers to London to blow up civilians? NO! they blew up the military command center of the British Army which was the King David hotel and teh brits ran home screaming

the ratio of m-16 grenades ect. to suicide bombs they have in supplies is more like 1:25
that second statement of course they arent going to go 1,000 miles just to blow up something they are going to blow up and may not even kill anyone. might as well go for teh military targets but jerusalem is just right around the corner
Originally posted by: scout45

Originally posted by: Gen.ArielSharon

Originally posted by: scout45

no one is backing up the palestine goverment sure some oil companies are supporting the terrorist groups but no one is giving any money to the palestine goverment if we gave them the money we gave isreal im sure the palestinian police force would be able to control these bombers better. you also have to take it from these extremist's point of view

Your buddies just got locked up by the Israeli army you hear that the refugee camp your uncle was in being raided. You want retailiation who are you going to choose?
1. The well equiped Israeli army with body armor, helicopters, tanks and apcs. You'll get shot before you even get close.
2.This nice undefended bus full of Israelis.

Saddly they only have bombs since it is the cheapest and deadliest weapon. It wouldn't do much effect on that 2inch titanium coating on that army vehicle but it sure will do alot of damage in that mall over ther. Of course they are going to go for the civilians.

actually they have m-16's, grenades, and unguided rockets, they dont have to resort to suicide bombing! when the Jews were fighting the British in the 1940's to kick them out of Palestine did they send suicide bombers to London to blow up civilians? NO! they blew up the military command center of the British Army which was the King David hotel and teh brits ran home screaming

the ratio of m-16 grenades ect. to suicide bombs they have in supplies is more like 1:25
that second statement of course they arent going to go 1,000 miles just to blow up something they are going to blow up and may not even kill anyone. might as well go for teh military targets but jerusalem is just right around the corner

M-16's and Ak-47's are rampant in the terrotorries and now with the wepaons problems in Iraq u can only imagine how much more amoo and wepaons will finds its way to the west bank
thats why we need to put full support behind abbas if israeli army went in there and did raids and searches that would only help the flame against israel if abbas's goverment did the searches there would be less tension.

personally if i was plotting an attack on canada i would be more happy to get arressted by the fbi then a candian mountie

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