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THIS PISSES ME OFF!!!!!!!

Historical capture recovered from the Wayback Machine · captured 2003-06-06 · 2 of 3 pages survived · 23 posts
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British Officer Praised for His Code Is Accused of Violating It
Wed May 21, 3:01 PM ET Add Top Stories - The New York Times to My Yahoo!

By WARREN HOGE The New York Times

LONDON, May 21 — The British Army officer whose rousing prebattle address to his troops in March drew worldwide attention for its emphasis on treating enemy captives with respect is under investigation on accusations of having abused Iraqi soldiers and civilians, the Ministry of Defense said today.

Lt. Col. Tim Collins, 43, reportedly stands accused of punching, kicking and threatening Iraqi prisoners of war to force information from them and for opening fire needlessly to intimidate civilians. A ministry spokesman would confirm only that an investigation was under way.


British newspapers said the charges included gashing the head of an Iraqi civic leader with his pistol, shooting out the tires of vehicles when there was no threat or no weapons visible, firing at the ground near the feet of civilians and bullying townspeople who did not obey orders.


The charges were first published today in The Sun, Britain's largest daily tabloid, which was a vocal supporter of the war in Iraq (news - web sites).


If the charges are true, they will undermine a reputation the British established for showing patience and calm during the chaotic aftermath of the capture of Um Qasr and Basra and the surrounding areas of southern Iraq. That behavior was frequently contrasted in the British press with the conduct of American troops in Baghdad and elsewhere, which was often portrayed as insensitive and brutish.


The Press Association, Britain's domestic news agency, reported, with no attribution, that one of those complaining about Colonel Collins's actions was an American military officer.


Colonel Collins's rallying speech on March 22, on the eve of the British crossing into southern Iraq, attracted notice in particular for the emphasis he put on the need for showing generosity and compassion in conquest.


"If you are ferocious in battle, remember to be magnanimous in victory," he told his men, who were gathered around him at their encampment in the Kuwaiti desert. "If someone surrenders to you, remember they have that right in international law and ensure that one day they go home to their family."


He went on to remind them of Iraq's ancient history, saying:, "You will have to go a long way to find a more decent, generous and upright people than the Iraqis. You will be embarrassed by their hospitality, even though they have nothing. Don't treat them as refugees, for they are in their own country."


Charles, the Prince of Wales, described Colonel Collins's address at the time as "extraordinarily stirring, civilized and humane." In a personal letter to him, the heir to the throne wrote, "What you said somehow encapsulated, in a brilliantly inspired way, everything that we have come to expect of our armed forces and demonstrated why, quite simply, they are the best in the world."


Born and raised in Belfast, Northern Ireland, Colonel Collins commanded the First Battalion of the Royal Irish Regiment, based in Canterbury, Kent. The regiment helped secure the oil town of Rumaila in the early days of the war and was the first British infantry unit to return home this month.


The Ministry of Defense said Colonel Collins was now on operational leave, awaiting reassignment to a new posting that had been scheduled before the war. Special Investigations Branch teams were reported to have interviewed members of the regiment in Canterbury and to have flown to Iraq to take testimony there, all aimed at seeing whether there had been violations of the Geneva Convention's rules on treatment of prisoners.


Colonel Collins himself made no public comment, but unnamed friends quoted by The Sun said he had denied the accusations.


An athletic-looking man with iron-filing gray, crew-cut hair, he was often pictured smoking a cigar, with a khaki scarf tucked into his desert camouflage uniform and highway patrolman sunglasses covering his eyes.


Known to his troops as "Nails" for his steely manner, he built a distinguished record with the elite special forces and served in Northern Ireland, Sierra Leone, Germany, Cyprus, the Falkland Islands and Gibraltar.


Colonel Collins's speech concluded on a cautionary note. "If you harm the regiment or its history by overenthusiasm in killing or in cowardice," he said, "know it is your family that will suffer. You will be shunned unless your conduct is of the highest, for your deeds will follow you down through history."









Its war. If he kicked someone to get info to save lives. Who the fuck cares. Its war.

This guy should be getting a medal and instead some Anti-War Piece of Shit loser is trying to go after him. Sickens me.
Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~

Its war. If he kicked someone to get info to save lives. Who the fuck cares. Its war.

This guy should be getting a medal and instead some Anti-War Piece of Shit loser is trying to go after him. Sickens me.


That's not the point. He was the darling of the media with his "Yes, the war won't be nice. But it's necessary. We will, however, act honorably" speech.

I guess that makes him hyper-hypo-critical.
 
I think its bullshit none-the less. Its war. Its like the anti-war people want us to be nice to someone before we kill them. Or be nice to them when they are shooting at us.

I would stand behind this guy 100%

They want us to fight a politically correct war. LOL

How about the scumball Baath members who executed our men. FUCK THOSE guys who even open their mouths. Why dont they go to the families of them men who were executed and get their view. Anti-war people in this really piss me off. A person puts his life on the line and those POS are mad this guy used excessive force. FUCK them

and this isnt directed to any TWL member.
Post edited by ~~Snake~~ at 5/22/2003 2:07:14 PM
I'm fully behind you on the crap about fighting a politically correct war being b.s. and all.

All I'm saying is that the guy shouldn't say one thing (to a very large audience, mind you) and do something diametrically opposed to what he said.
 
Its not proven he did it. I really think common sense would apply here though Its war and war is hell. If we understand that aspect of it, I find it absurd that he is being charged. IMO

I still appreciate your input though
Well im sure he was just greasing the medias ear like hes supposed to..No one is told to go out and say, "Well were gonna beat the shit outta them if they dont give us the info we ask for.." Its all about feeding the media frenzy and telling them what they want to hear..Shit half the guys giving these speeches never seen em till about 10 mins before the speech anywho...And to all those people crying about how prisoners are treated, grow the hell up...Any american soldier caught by these guys had there asses ROYALLY whooped...This whole human rights shit is garbage. Let them get captured by enemy forces and spend a few nights with them and then they can come and preach to me, till then they can STFU. These are the same guys who got there asses kicked in high school cause they were afraid to fight back. Face the facts man, when in war there is nothing civil going on.. All the boundries are blurred when it comes down to it. Its kill or be killed. I see nothing wrong with beating the shit outta a prisoner if its gonna save the lives of 100 men, even 1 or 2 for that fact. Folks act like prisoners of WAR should have tea and crumpets served and allowed to make a phone call once an hour. Its war, and these types of things are just orders carried out by the peons for the big wigs. This shit has happend in EVERY WAR that there has EVER BEEN. And will always happen as long as mankind is involved..Have a nice day


Save a tree, Eat a BEAVER...!
Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~

Its war. If he kicked someone to get info to save lives. Who the fuck cares. Its war.

This guy should be getting a medal and instead some Anti-War Piece of Shit loser is trying to go after him. Sickens me.

It makes him no better than the Iraqis who captured and abused americans.
Wrong. They butchered us for one. Being a POW isnt a pleasant experience. It like these people think war is a video game and you can turn it off when it gets ugly. War is ugly. I hope that guy kicked tons of the Iraqis who wouldnt listen or posed a threat to our soldiers. Im sure in the heat of battle that emotions run high. I sure don't recall any mideast countries EVER following the Geneva conventions in war. And we do and now look what happens.


Post edited by ~~Snake~~ at 5/22/2003 3:42:05 PM
People wanted Patton removed after he slapped his OWN soldiers. Thanks god that didn't happen. The information he recieved probably saved his men's lives. I would serve for a man like that any day.

One problem I have with this article (other than it's from the New York Times) is that it goes on to say that he opened fire without the threat of weapons around. That's a lot of crap. In war and even now (in Iraq) there is always always always the threat of weapons.
There is NO PROOF at all.

*edited*
Post edited by Naut at 5/22/2003 6:22:37 PM
Personall, Im gonna need a HELL of a lot more information about this man before I go counting him as a war criminal. If all he did was slap a few prisoners around to get some information, then I say he didnt violate anything.

I say get off the soldier's back. He is a soldier, not a clergyman. If I saw half the shit this guy did, I would probably be slapping around a few myself.

Originally posted by: Naut

There is NO PROOF at all.

By posting the story it just shows your a bitch to the media.

I am a bitch?? You better restate that
Post edited by ~~Snake~~ at 5/22/2003 5:50:48 PM
Naut seems to like to personally insult people, dont blame him
I think he meant to say slave or something like that. Naut is usually very cool. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt.
Naut has been eating retard sandwiches again.
Maybe I overreacted to what he said about my dad i dunno, but I was extremely pissed at the time
Kevin, and the others saying that I personally attacked Kev a sec ago;

http://www.teamwarfare.com/forums/showthread.asp?forumid=9&perpage=20&threadid=44040&page=4


As for this actual thread.. maby I should rephrase, but what I meant by calling him a bitch to the media is that he beleives anything he sees on CNN or FOX. It is a bad idea to do that considering how one sides many issues they put on there are..


Snake is awesome, just making a point
Thanks! I figured so. hehe.
Treating POWs with some dignity is not fighting a 'politically correct' war. It is showing that we are adhering to the same principles, rights and freedoms (e.g., freedom from discrimination/tortue) that we are going to war to defend.
I think using the argument that the other side would tortue Allied soldiers if put in the same position is flawed because one of the main reasons, as I interpreted it, for going to Iraq was to 'liberate the Iraqis' who were being treated cruely and injustely. Are you so quick to stoop to their level-the very level that we condemmed?
^TYRO.exe

Its war! Like I said. War is Hell.

With that being said, NO other middle east country EVER follows the Geneva conventions. So if it gets heated and we smack them around. Im glad we did. Because we could Blow them apart but we choose to let them live. So arguing that we didnt give them dignity is 100% wrong. This is war. If you are so worried about dignity, you have no business in being in a hostile zone.


I don't think we stooped to any level except getting the job done.!!!


I am big about honor, but I am even more big on getting our boys home and if it costs some Iraqi his SO CALLED dignity. So be it.
Post edited by ~~Snake~~ at 5/22/2003 6:46:22 PM
hehe

Originally posted by: Juzfugen

since when did could you only have 1 reason to goto war?


I never said you could have only 1 reason, if you thought thats what i meant, oops

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