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Irrenarzt

Historical capture recovered from the Wayback Machine · captured 2012-03-09 · 100 posts
You've said you think secession is legal, but you weren't convinced that the South had a good reason to do so. Their reason was simple. They didn't feel like the Union was beneficial to them. They felt that the government was being used to plunder the South and enrich the North. Yes, this did include the handling of the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850, which never should have passed anyhow, but also with the collection and use of tariffs as well as political trickery.

Probably the easiest way to figure out what they didn't like is by looking at their legal framework, the Confederate Constitution. It was nearly identical to the Federal Constitution but there are some very important changes. Would they have made these changes if they felt that the original agreement were fair and just? If all that they wanted was simply to govern themselves, wouldn't they have just seceded and used the exact same constitution? But they didn't. They wanted to govern themselves better and they made the changes they thought appropriate to accomplish that goal.

Some of the changes are:
Internal Improvements (Corporate Welfare) was expressly forbidden.
The Executive Branch had one term limit of six years.
State legislatures could impeach Federal (meaning Confederate Government) Officials within their state.
Slavery was expressly legal but the international slave trade was expressly illegal. (this was the case with the US since about 1802)
Legislation intended to promote one industry over another (picking winners and losers) was expressly forbidden.
Any bill or resolution could only deal with a single subject which had to be stated in the title.
It was easier to amend.
And, of course, the Preamble stated "We, the people of the Confederate States, each State acting in its sovereign and independent character..."

Originally posted by: The Declaration of Independence
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."


In regards to how they left, there is no written process for how a State should leave the Union. Of course, since Secession is in fact a power that a person or group of people (State) can and have made use of and it is not restricted in anyway by the Constitution, it is reserved to the States or People, as is evidenced in the Tenth Amendment. But, since there was no laid out framework for how to do it, they had to decide the best way to go about it. What did they decide? They decided that since the vote to ratify the Constitution was fair and just, the only fair and just way to unratify the Constitution would be the same process; and that's exactly what they did. They held conventions and voted on it. And then, just as the American Colonies sent their former unifying sovereign fair and just notice of their departure, so did the Confederates. These are known as the Ordinances of Secession.

Keep in mind, this was all done by the first seven states to secede. Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, Florida, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas. After Lincoln called for an invasion of these seven states (without Congress' approval), Arkansas, North Carolina, Tennessee, and Virginia seceded as well because they strongly disapproved of Lincoln's actions.

I'm not sure there's much reason to go further. All that's left is destruction and the death of the Founders' America (two of them).

_________________
"The principle, on which the war was waged by the North, was simply this: That men may rightfully be compelled to submit to, and support, a government that they do not want; and that resistance, on their part, makes them traitors and criminals."
-- Massachusetts Abolitionist, Lysander Spooner
I'm not trying to be rude with a short response, but I'm still out of state and typing this on an iPad...

Again, I believe for secession to be legal, the reason needs to be legitimate. Tariffs that benefit industry (ultimately benefiting everyone's quality of life, national security, etc), but shrinking your pockets in the short is not something to cause even more problems over. Bide your time and reap your benefits later. Political trickery Is not something you're going to be able to secede from... Its something in human nature that has to be managed... You'll never just be able to run away scared from it.

None of these problems are overall unique to a society. But to act like selfish, hypocritical children over it is absurd... You're not being ruled by a hereditary monarch that takes months to sail across an ocean to hand a message for representation. You're not being illegally jailed, tortured, or killed. The government isn't enslaving your family in labor camps, etc...

You're simply not living the Burger King dream of always having it your way. This is real life.

A difference in legal framework doesn't do it for me either. After almost a hundred years, there's plenty of time to find changes and things that fit modern times... It's why rules are constantly changing. You listed nothing that couldn't have been achieved without a newly ratified constitution.
Post edited by Irrenarzt at 12/22/2011 5:53:45 PM
So, what you are saying is this: it's ok to get shit on, so long as you getting shit on benefits someone else that you *might* have the chance to shit on later. Because that's exactly what political trickery and maneuvering is all about. So, just sit down, shut up and enjoy the shit the best you can while hoping for the day that you get to defecate on someone in return.

You are arguing against the very principles that the United States was founded upon. Most of the Founding Fathers and the Confederates were simply not collectivists, at least nowhere near the same level as we are today.

As for changing the Constitution, that took an Amendment, which required 2/3s majority of either the Congress or the States. There were 11 Confederate States (originally 7). Guess how many states were in the Union in December of 1860?
Thirty-three. Those are some pretty tough odds.

Shit, now I'm pressed for time...

There's so much to cover. The Alien and Sedition Act and the Virginia and Kentucky Resolutions... the Hartford Convention and the death of Alexander Hamilton... the Annexation of Texas... the Nullification Crisis...

I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall. Your response really came off to me as "I'm a staunch nationalist and that's that." Of course, I'm cool with people having nationalistic beliefs, but there are so many reasons to oppose nationalism.

It seems like you put "country first" and I put "individuals first" and this might be a fruitless endeavor.

Post edited by Nathan Bedford Forrest at 12/22/2011 6:12:49 PM

_________________
"The principle, on which the war was waged by the North, was simply this: That men may rightfully be compelled to submit to, and support, a government that they do not want; and that resistance, on their part, makes them traitors and criminals."
-- Massachusetts Abolitionist, Lysander Spooner
I'm not seeing this as being a nationalist... I see myself in this case as nothing political, but purely as a realist. Your idealism is unpractical to even your own desires.

I am ultimately concerned for myself and family, just as you are, but realize a big picture is involved that plays into it. I have a lot of wants, desires and needs that can only be filled with a functional society. Functional society requires a give and take relationship, just like a couples marriage.

Legitimate reasons can split apart society, but acting in favor of a crybaby (such as the south at the time) isn't beneficial to anyone in the long term.

If I want to kill someone in my home, should I just give my state and city advanced notice to my secession and then make it legal to do so?

You keep saying we're worse off because of the union being preserved, but I see no advantage to the alternative. While things are divisive now, it's nothing in comparison to the never ending conflict we'd see between the two sides AND individual states in your fantasy land.
These two fucktards are arguing over this bullshit while I am paying for up to a 20Mb DL speed and for the most part I get on average around 10-13 Mb DL speed.

Hell, even sometimes the shit is at 6-9 Mb for an entire hour!!!!
If you wanted to buy a computer and there were essentially two choices; one made in America (what a joke, right?) and one made in China. The one made in China cost 800 dollars and the one made in America cost 1000 dollars, which would you most likely buy?

Further, if the Feds set in place a tariff that made that 800 chinese computer now cost 1500 dollars, would you be pissed off about that? Especially if the American computer company was now selling their 1000 dollar computer for 1300?

If that wouldn't piss you off, I don't know what to say for you. If that does piss you off, I guess you are just a self-centered crybaby, right? I mean, fuck your quality of life. We've got starving computer manufacturers! What about THEM? Have a heart, asshole!


Oh, and I forgot to add that the Chinese computer runs Win 7 and the American computer is still on ME.

Post edited by Nathan Bedford Forrest at 12/22/2011 9:10:59 PM

_________________
"The principle, on which the war was waged by the North, was simply this: That men may rightfully be compelled to submit to, and support, a government that they do not want; and that resistance, on their part, makes them traitors and criminals."
-- Massachusetts Abolitionist, Lysander Spooner
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt

You keep saying we're worse off because of the union being preserved, but I see no advantage to the alternative. While things are divisive now, it's nothing in comparison to the never ending conflict we'd see between the two sides AND individual states in your fantasy land.


Would we be better off if we were all still part of the UK? How about if the entire world was one country and were subject to one government? Collectivism is "best for society", no? Fuck all that competition shit. Multiple societies competing with each other economically fucking sucks ass, doesn't it? We don't need to have 2 or even 50 similar societies implementing different laws and ideas to see which ones work best. Nah, fuck that noise. What we need is for everyone to tow the same line, even if it drags everyone of us straight to hell! At least in that case Hell won't be so bad, because at least we can count on having a shoulder to cry on.

You are totally right.

Post edited by Nathan Bedford Forrest at 12/22/2011 9:07:12 PM

_________________
"The principle, on which the war was waged by the North, was simply this: That men may rightfully be compelled to submit to, and support, a government that they do not want; and that resistance, on their part, makes them traitors and criminals."
-- Massachusetts Abolitionist, Lysander Spooner
Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
If you wanted to buy a computer and there were essentially two choices; one made in America (what a joke, right?) and one made in China. The one made in China cost 800 dollars and the one made in America cost 1000 dollars, which would you most likely buy?

Further, if the Feds set in place a tariff that made that 800 chinese computer now cost 1500 dollars, would you be pissed off about that? Especially if the American computer company was now selling their 1000 dollar computer for 1400?

If that wouldn't piss you off, I don't know what to say for you. If that does piss you off, I guess you are just a self-centered crybaby, right?


As a consumer it would piss me off. As an employee, or a friend/family member of an employee I would applaud it. Pluses and minuses.
Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt

You keep saying we're worse off because of the union being preserved, but I see no advantage to the alternative. While things are divisive now, it's nothing in comparison to the never ending conflict we'd see between the two sides AND individual states in your fantasy land.


Would we be better off if we were all still part of the UK? How about if the entire world was one country and were subject to one government? Collectivism is "best for society", no? Fuck all that competition shit. Multiple societies competing with each other economically fucking sucks ass, doesn't it? We don't need to have 2 or even 50 similar societies implementing different laws and ideas to see which ones work best. Nah, fuck that noise. What we need is for everyone to tow the same line, even if it drags everyone of us straight to hell! At least in that case Hell won't be so bad, because at least we can count on having a shoulder to cry on.

You are totally right.


Compare Europe to north America In the last 200+ years.

Ya, you are totally right.
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt
Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
If you wanted to buy a computer and there were essentially two choices; one made in America (what a joke, right?) and one made in China. The one made in China cost 800 dollars and the one made in America cost 1000 dollars, which would you most likely buy?

Further, if the Feds set in place a tariff that made that 800 chinese computer now cost 1500 dollars, would you be pissed off about that? Especially if the American computer company was now selling their 1000 dollar computer for 1400?

If that wouldn't piss you off, I don't know what to say for you. If that does piss you off, I guess you are just a self-centered crybaby, right?


As a consumer it would piss me off. As an employee, or a friend/family member of an employee I would applaud it. Pluses and minuses.


Ok. So, if you, your friends nor your family worked for the shitty American computer company, and the Federal government just drove the cost of your computer up 300-500 dollars while simultaneously incentivising people to buy lower quality stuff, what would your recommended course of action be?

_________________
"The principle, on which the war was waged by the North, was simply this: That men may rightfully be compelled to submit to, and support, a government that they do not want; and that resistance, on their part, makes them traitors and criminals."
-- Massachusetts Abolitionist, Lysander Spooner
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt
Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt

You keep saying we're worse off because of the union being preserved, but I see no advantage to the alternative. While things are divisive now, it's nothing in comparison to the never ending conflict we'd see between the two sides AND individual states in your fantasy land.


Would we be better off if we were all still part of the UK? How about if the entire world was one country and were subject to one government? Collectivism is "best for society", no? Fuck all that competition shit. Multiple societies competing with each other economically fucking sucks ass, doesn't it? We don't need to have 2 or even 50 similar societies implementing different laws and ideas to see which ones work best. Nah, fuck that noise. What we need is for everyone to tow the same line, even if it drags everyone of us straight to hell! At least in that case Hell won't be so bad, because at least we can count on having a shoulder to cry on.

You are totally right.


Compare Europe to north America In the last 200+ years.

Ya, you are totally right.


Europe and America aren't quite the same. It would be more like comparing America, Canada, and Mexico.

_________________
"The principle, on which the war was waged by the North, was simply this: That men may rightfully be compelled to submit to, and support, a government that they do not want; and that resistance, on their part, makes them traitors and criminals."
-- Massachusetts Abolitionist, Lysander Spooner
Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt
Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
If you wanted to buy a computer and there were essentially two choices; one made in America (what a joke, right?) and one made in China. The one made in China cost 800 dollars and the one made in America cost 1000 dollars, which would you most likely buy?

Further, if the Feds set in place a tariff that made that 800 chinese computer now cost 1500 dollars, would you be pissed off about that? Especially if the American computer company was now selling their 1000 dollar computer for 1400?

If that wouldn't piss you off, I don't know what to say for you. If that does piss you off, I guess you are just a self-centered crybaby, right?


As a consumer it would piss me off. As an employee, or a friend/family member of an employee I would applaud it. Pluses and minuses.


Ok. So, if you, your friends nor your family worked for the shitty American computer company, and the Federal government just drove the cost of your computer up 300-500 dollars while simultaneously incentivising people to buy lower quality stuff, what would your recommended course of action be?


Buy the higher quality product. Ultimately competition will win considering this is a global economy. I'd still applaud the government for siding with American business though... In the end it'll be the American companies fault if it fails, but our government gave them a fighting opportunity to catch up and succeed.
Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt
Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt

You keep saying we're worse off because of the union being preserved, but I see no advantage to the alternative. While things are divisive now, it's nothing in comparison to the never ending conflict we'd see between the two sides AND individual states in your fantasy land.


Would we be better off if we were all still part of the UK? How about if the entire world was one country and were subject to one government? Collectivism is "best for society", no? Fuck all that competition shit. Multiple societies competing with each other economically fucking sucks ass, doesn't it? We don't need to have 2 or even 50 similar societies implementing different laws and ideas to see which ones work best. Nah, fuck that noise. What we need is for everyone to tow the same line, even if it drags everyone of us straight to hell! At least in that case Hell won't be so bad, because at least we can count on having a shoulder to cry on.

You are totally right.


Compare Europe to north America In the last 200+ years.

Ya, you are totally right.


Europe and America aren't quite the same. It would be more like comparing America, Canada, and Mexico.


Over time fully autonomous individual states and governments would become Europe.
Post edited by Irrenarzt at 12/22/2011 9:22:20 PM
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt
Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt
Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
If you wanted to buy a computer and there were essentially two choices; one made in America (what a joke, right?) and one made in China. The one made in China cost 800 dollars and the one made in America cost 1000 dollars, which would you most likely buy?

Further, if the Feds set in place a tariff that made that 800 chinese computer now cost 1500 dollars, would you be pissed off about that? Especially if the American computer company was now selling their 1000 dollar computer for 1400?

If that wouldn't piss you off, I don't know what to say for you. If that does piss you off, I guess you are just a self-centered crybaby, right?


As a consumer it would piss me off. As an employee, or a friend/family member of an employee I would applaud it. Pluses and minuses.


Ok. So, if you, your friends nor your family worked for the shitty American computer company, and the Federal government just drove the cost of your computer up 300-500 dollars while simultaneously incentivising people to buy lower quality stuff, what would your recommended course of action be?


Buy the higher quality product. Ultimately competition will win considering this is a global economy. I'd still applaud the government for siding with American business though... In the end it'll be the American companies fault if it fails, but our government gave them a fighting opportunity to catch up and succeed.


So you are a shill for the corporations and are totally cool with plundering individuals. I cannot convince you otherwise.

I guess it's time to Occupy Irrenarzt!



Just kidding. You and I have different morals and principles. It's that simple. No point in arguing the point any further.

I'm John C. Calhoun to your Henry Clay.

_________________
"The principle, on which the war was waged by the North, was simply this: That men may rightfully be compelled to submit to, and support, a government that they do not want; and that resistance, on their part, makes them traitors and criminals."
-- Massachusetts Abolitionist, Lysander Spooner
Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt
Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt
Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
If you wanted to buy a computer and there were essentially two choices; one made in America (what a joke, right?) and one made in China. The one made in China cost 800 dollars and the one made in America cost 1000 dollars, which would you most likely buy?

Further, if the Feds set in place a tariff that made that 800 chinese computer now cost 1500 dollars, would you be pissed off about that? Especially if the American computer company was now selling their 1000 dollar computer for 1400?

If that wouldn't piss you off, I don't know what to say for you. If that does piss you off, I guess you are just a self-centered crybaby, right?


As a consumer it would piss me off. As an employee, or a friend/family member of an employee I would applaud it. Pluses and minuses.


Ok. So, if you, your friends nor your family worked for the shitty American computer company, and the Federal government just drove the cost of your computer up 300-500 dollars while simultaneously incentivising people to buy lower quality stuff, what would your recommended course of action be?


Buy the higher quality product. Ultimately competition will win considering this is a global economy. I'd still applaud the government for siding with American business though... In the end it'll be the American companies fault if it fails, but our government gave them a fighting opportunity to catch up and succeed.


So you are a shill for the corporations and are totally cool with plundering individuals. I cannot convince you otherwise.

I guess it's time to Occupy Irrenarzt!



Just kidding. You and I have different morals and principles. It's that simple. No point in arguing the point any further.

I'm John C. Calhoun to your Henry Clay.


K, I'll just go with that.
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt
Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt
Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt

You keep saying we're worse off because of the union being preserved, but I see no advantage to the alternative. While things are divisive now, it's nothing in comparison to the never ending conflict we'd see between the two sides AND individual states in your fantasy land.


Would we be better off if we were all still part of the UK? How about if the entire world was one country and were subject to one government? Collectivism is "best for society", no? Fuck all that competition shit. Multiple societies competing with each other economically fucking sucks ass, doesn't it? We don't need to have 2 or even 50 similar societies implementing different laws and ideas to see which ones work best. Nah, fuck that noise. What we need is for everyone to tow the same line, even if it drags everyone of us straight to hell! At least in that case Hell won't be so bad, because at least we can count on having a shoulder to cry on.

You are totally right.


Compare Europe to north America In the last 200+ years.

Ya, you are totally right.


Europe and America aren't quite the same. It would be more like comparing America, Canada, and Mexico.


Over time fully autonomous individual states and governments would become Europe.


I would argue otherwise based off of cultural differences. All of the American States and Canadian Provinces are based off of British Common Law and society (except for Quebec, and I'd bet it's highly influenced). I don't see a lot of cultural similarity between Finland and Greece, Poland and Portugal, or Wales and Italy. At the same time, there is quite a bit to be found in common between Alabama and British Columbia and Colorado and Nova Scotia.

_________________
"The principle, on which the war was waged by the North, was simply this: That men may rightfully be compelled to submit to, and support, a government that they do not want; and that resistance, on their part, makes them traitors and criminals."
-- Massachusetts Abolitionist, Lysander Spooner
Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt
Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt
Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt

You keep saying we're worse off because of the union being preserved, but I see no advantage to the alternative. While things are divisive now, it's nothing in comparison to the never ending conflict we'd see between the two sides AND individual states in your fantasy land.


Would we be better off if we were all still part of the UK? How about if the entire world was one country and were subject to one government? Collectivism is "best for society", no? Fuck all that competition shit. Multiple societies competing with each other economically fucking sucks ass, doesn't it? We don't need to have 2 or even 50 similar societies implementing different laws and ideas to see which ones work best. Nah, fuck that noise. What we need is for everyone to tow the same line, even if it drags everyone of us straight to hell! At least in that case Hell won't be so bad, because at least we can count on having a shoulder to cry on.

You are totally right.


Compare Europe to north America In the last 200+ years.

Ya, you are totally right.


Europe and America aren't quite the same. It would be more like comparing America, Canada, and Mexico.


Over time fully autonomous individual states and governments would become Europe.


I would argue otherwise based off of cultural differences. All of the American States and Canadian Provinces are based off of British Common Law and society (except for Quebec, and I'd bet it's highly influenced). I don't see a lot of cultural similarity between Finland and Greece, Poland and Portugal, or Wales and Italy. At the same time, there is quite a bit to be found in common between Alabama and British Columbia and Colorado and Nova Scotia.


Because they haven't had the opportunity to be much different. Divide and give it time, and changes will make shape leading to differences - mostly negative for progression or even a status quo.
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt

Again, I believe for secession to be legal, the reason needs to be legitimate. Tariffs that benefit industry (ultimately benefiting everyone's quality of life, national security, etc), but shrinking your pockets in the short is not something to cause even more problems over. Bide your time and reap your benefits later. Political trickery Is not something you're going to be able to secede from... Its something in human nature that has to be managed... You'll never just be able to run away scared from it.


I don't mean to be rude........

But did you even support the Revolutionary War? And if you did why, exactly, did you support one event and not the other?

Feeling that taxation........or false taxation.........without some level of benefit, or direct representation/benefit, isn't a sound justification pretty much means that you also would have been on this side of that battle.



How am I wrong here? Or am I?

Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
So, what you are saying is this: it's ok to get shit on, so long as you getting shit on benefits someone else that you *might* have the chance to shit on later. Because that's exactly what political trickery and maneuvering is all about. So, just sit down, shut up and enjoy the shit the best you can while hoping for the day that you get to defecate on someone in return.

You are arguing against the very principles that the United States was founded upon. Most of the Founding Fathers and the Confederates were simply not collectivists, at least nowhere near the same level as we are today.

As for changing the Constitution, that took an Amendment, which required 2/3s majority of either the Congress or the States. There were 11 Confederate States (originally 7). Guess how many states were in the Union in December of 1860?
Thirty-three. Those are some pretty tough odds.

Shit, now I'm pressed for time...

There's so much to cover. The Alien and Sedition Act and the Virginia and Kentucky Resolutions... the Hartford Convention and the death of Alexander Hamilton... the Annexation of Texas... the Nullification Crisis...

I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall. Your response really came off to me as "I'm a staunch nationalist and that's that." Of course, I'm cool with people having nationalistic beliefs, but there are so many reasons to oppose nationalism.

It seems like you put "country first" and I put "individuals first" and this might be a fruitless endeavor.


Pretty much sums it.....blind, submissive, complacency.
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt

Legitimate reasons can split apart society, but acting in favor of a crybaby (such as the south at the time) isn't beneficial to anyone in the long term.


Here is the kicker........it is like a marriage. And that, much like marriage, you have the "choice" to get out of it when it is no longer beneficial to you, or in your individual best interest.

For anyone to tell you that you have to stay married, despite being miserable, or it forcing you to be poor, or downtrodden (or whatever), because some third party.......who isn't making any sacrifices.....says so is frankly fucking absurd in my eyes.

It's like you saying that you are going to divorce, because you aren't happy, or for whatever reason, and I say "suck it up cry baby"....."stop being a cunt bitch".....and that your happiness isn't sound justification to being granted a divorce.

Why not take this further? Why not disallow people to quit their jobs because they are miserable and not being compensated enough? Why not just re-invoke slavery too?

If choice, free will and consent are not requisites in this world what the really fuck is?
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt
Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt
Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
If you wanted to buy a computer and there were essentially two choices; one made in America (what a joke, right?) and one made in China. The one made in China cost 800 dollars and the one made in America cost 1000 dollars, which would you most likely buy?

Further, if the Feds set in place a tariff that made that 800 chinese computer now cost 1500 dollars, would you be pissed off about that? Especially if the American computer company was now selling their 1000 dollar computer for 1400?

If that wouldn't piss you off, I don't know what to say for you. If that does piss you off, I guess you are just a self-centered crybaby, right?


As a consumer it would piss me off. As an employee, or a friend/family member of an employee I would applaud it. Pluses and minuses.


Ok. So, if you, your friends nor your family worked for the shitty American computer company, and the Federal government just drove the cost of your computer up 300-500 dollars while simultaneously incentivising people to buy lower quality stuff, what would your recommended course of action be?


Buy the higher quality product. Ultimately competition will win considering this is a global economy. I'd still applaud the government for siding with American business though... In the end it'll be the American companies fault if it fails, but our government gave them a fighting opportunity to catch up and succeed.


No......it's about elimination of choice. It's about playing favorites, in an allegedly free market. Choice has nothing to do with your outlook. Hence my massive issue with it.

It's virtually analogous, in my eyes, to passing a law that you have to buy American, even if it is the inferior of the two products.........

That would also be beneficial to some people.......so why not right?

I honestly just don't understand how you can mentally justify this notion that some people will just have to work, their entire life, to support people who are not necessarily doing, or giving, anything back to them in return.....

And that they should have no real say......or argument in the matter (that it's just a burden that they will have to carry).

I just don't fucking get it.......it's a completely abstract concept to me and perhaps it has something to do with me only being able to see this world linearly.

Help a brother out.......please
Post edited by Mockery at 12/23/2011 2:07:02 AM
hey guys!
___________________________________________________________________________

And here is Mockery saying all the shit that I'm to lazy to say. I just gave up dude. We won't change his mind.


edit

I guess I didn't give up after all...

Post edited by Nathan Bedford Forrest at 12/23/2011 10:29:08 AM

_________________
"The principle, on which the war was waged by the North, was simply this: That men may rightfully be compelled to submit to, and support, a government that they do not want; and that resistance, on their part, makes them traitors and criminals."
-- Massachusetts Abolitionist, Lysander Spooner
Originally posted by: Mockery
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt

Again, I believe for secession to be legal, the reason needs to be legitimate. Tariffs that benefit industry (ultimately benefiting everyone's quality of life, national security, etc), but shrinking your pockets in the short is not something to cause even more problems over. Bide your time and reap your benefits later. Political trickery Is not something you're going to be able to secede from... Its something in human nature that has to be managed... You'll never just be able to run away scared from it.


I don't mean to be rude........

But did you even support the Revolutionary War? And if you did why, exactly, did you support one event and not the other?

Feeling that taxation........or false taxation.........without some level of benefit, or direct representation/benefit, isn't a sound justification pretty much means that you also would have been on this side of that battle.



How am I wrong here? Or am I?



You're jumping into a conversation when it's already over, so that's part of the problem...

Trying to compare the civil war to the revolution war is impossible, and feeble to an argument.

The civil war was political rivalry. The revolution war was a separation from an assigned government that offered poor representation through extreme distance and lack of concern.
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt

Trying to compare the civil war to the revolution war is impossible, and feeble to an argument.


No, it isn't.

Originally posted by: Irrenarzt
The revolution war was a separation from an assigned government that offered poor representation through extreme distance and lack of concern.


The bold part is an accurate description of the South's position in their secession and the subsequent invasion.

Post edited by Nathan Bedford Forrest at 12/23/2011 10:28:14 AM

_________________
"The principle, on which the war was waged by the North, was simply this: That men may rightfully be compelled to submit to, and support, a government that they do not want; and that resistance, on their part, makes them traitors and criminals."
-- Massachusetts Abolitionist, Lysander Spooner
Originally posted by: Mockery
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt

Legitimate reasons can split apart society, but acting in favor of a crybaby (such as the south at the time) isn't beneficial to anyone in the long term.


Here is the kicker........it is like a marriage. And that, much like marriage, you have the "choice" to get out of it when it is no longer beneficial to you, or in your individual best interest.

For anyone to tell you that you have to stay married, despite being miserable, or it forcing you to be poor, or downtrodden (or whatever), because some third party.......who isn't making any sacrifices.....says so is frankly fucking absurd in my eyes.

It's like you saying that you are going to divorce, because you aren't happy, or for whatever reason, and I say "suck it up cry baby"....."stop being a cunt bitch".....and that your happiness isn't sound justification to being granted a divorce.

Why not take this further? Why not disallow people to quit their jobs because they are miserable and not being compensated enough? Why not just re-invoke slavery too?

If choice, free will and consent are not requisites in this world what the really fuck is?


It's amazing that after all this discussion you've missed such obvious points that I have to repeat myself...

I'm not arguing against secession, I'm arguing against doing it without legitimate reasons... The south had NONE.

You quitting your job over poor compensation is legitimate, because that's the only reason to be working in the first place. Divorcing from a miserable marriage is legitimate, because happiness is the only reason to get into it in the first place.

Needing a wambulance purely over some things that are both debatebly positive and negative IS NOT fair reason to make the decision for everyone else to weaken your society and develop future conflicts.

What about my earlier question on your idea that apparently anything is legitimate to secede? What if I want to secede from city and state to murder in my own home? It's apparently my right to do so...
Post edited by Irrenarzt at 12/23/2011 10:44:36 AM
Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt

Trying to compare the civil war to the revolution war is impossible, and feeble to an argument.


No, it isn't.

Originally posted by: Irrenarzt
The revolution war was a separation from an assigned government that offered poor representation through extreme distance and lack of concern.


The bold part is an accurate description of the South's position in their secession and the subsequent invasion.


It is a feeble attempt.

Using only the bold words is a pretty major stretch (one thatll tear holes) to try and say it fits.
Originally posted by: Mockery
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt
Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt
Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
If you wanted to buy a computer and there were essentially two choices; one made in America (what a joke, right?) and one made in China. The one made in China cost 800 dollars and the one made in America cost 1000 dollars, which would you most likely buy?

Further, if the Feds set in place a tariff that made that 800 chinese computer now cost 1500 dollars, would you be pissed off about that? Especially if the American computer company was now selling their 1000 dollar computer for 1400?

If that wouldn't piss you off, I don't know what to say for you. If that does piss you off, I guess you are just a self-centered crybaby, right?


As a consumer it would piss me off. As an employee, or a friend/family member of an employee I would applaud it. Pluses and minuses.


Ok. So, if you, your friends nor your family worked for the shitty American computer company, and the Federal government just drove the cost of your computer up 300-500 dollars while simultaneously incentivising people to buy lower quality stuff, what would your recommended course of action be?


Buy the higher quality product. Ultimately competition will win considering this is a global economy. I'd still applaud the government for siding with American business though... In the end it'll be the American companies fault if it fails, but our government gave them a fighting opportunity to catch up and succeed.


No......it's about elimination of choice. It's about playing favorites, in an allegedly free market. Choice has nothing to do with your outlook. Hence my massive issue with it.

It's virtually analogous, in my eyes, to passing a law that you have to buy American, even if it is the inferior of the two products.........

That would also be beneficial to some people.......so why not right?

I honestly just don't understand how you can mentally justify this notion that some people will just have to work, their entire life, to support people who are not necessarily doing, or giving, anything back to them in return.....

And that they should have no real say......or argument in the matter (that it's just a burden that they will have to carry).

I just don't fucking get it.......it's a completely abstract concept to me and perhaps it has something to do with me only being able to see this world linearly.

Help a brother out.......please


My belief is that I benefit more from an employed than unemployed neighbor. Giving that neighbor an opportunity over my own selfish consumerist desires is an annoyance, but ultimately better.

And as I said before, that business it not going to survive purely off a government tariff... It's still up to them to produce a product people will buy. The government giving them the opportunity to do so is exactly what I would expect them to do though.
I feel like I should be wearing a white wig. I wish I had one, I'd put it on.
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt

You're jumping into a conversation when it's already over, so that's part of the problem...


So fill a brother in........or did you suddenly change your mind on your previous opinion?

Originally posted by: Irrenarzt
Trying to compare the civil war to the revolution war is impossible, and feeble to an argument.


But you just used every single one of the justifications for why the Revolutionary war SHOULD NOT have taken place. It's just a little more tax? Not even a nickel tea tariff for crying out loud. It was also for the improvement of the entire British empire (colonies included). Canada paid their tax for crying out loud........what the fuck made America so special? Why did they have the right to denounce their allegiance to Britain and to everyone else who had, before that, been paying out money to help support them.

Originally posted by: Irrenarzt
The civil war was political rivalry. The revolution war was a separation from an assigned government that offered poor representation through extreme distance and lack of concern.


I totally agree with that.........and hopefully you can see how either of those arguments can and were actively made for either war. That's all I'm getting at. I don't even necessarily agree that the South had the right to do what they did against the Union in the Civil War.......but with that said.....I can certainly understand and see their side to the argument.

They felt they were not being sufficiently represented....that the industrialized North was levying taxes against them unfairly/unjustly.......and that the Union, due to either distance to the Capital, or sheer discrepancy in representation numbers, no longer represented their individual best interests anymore.

It's analogous, in almost every single way, to our own individual justification for the Revolutionary War. That's all I'm saying. Hopefully you can see that.

Post edited by Mockery at 12/23/2011 3:06:23 PM
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt

It's amazing that after all this discussion you've missed such obvious points that I have to repeat myself...


I read the thread three times and I'm sorry that your answers were still vague enough that I felt the need to reiterate these points of contention.

Originally posted by: Irrenarzt

I'm not arguing against secession, I'm arguing against doing it without legitimate reasons... The south had NONE.


Then you have clearly not been paying attention.....or are intentionally being dense.....because the arguments for legitimacy are virtually identical to the ones WE used in the Revolutionary War.

Who the hell was Canada to have to pay those taxes and not us? What the fuck made America so god damn special to not pay their loyalties to the queen? We were selfish and petty and should have just paid up for the improvement of the British empire, that we were also a part of........

Riddle me that......and I'll leave you alone.

Originally posted by: Irrenarzt
You quitting your job over poor compensation is legitimate, because that's the only reason to be working in the first place. Divorcing from a miserable marriage is legitimate, because happiness is the only reason to get into it in the first place.


Sweet.......then there it is. You do believe in some free will and choice. Glad to see I'm not arguing with a complete totalitarian after all.

Originally posted by: Irrenarzt
Needing a wambulance purely over some things that are both debatebly positive and negative IS NOT fair reason to make the decision for everyone else to weaken your society and develop future conflicts.


The developing of further conflict wasn't as much the product of trying to "peacefully" separate from the Union as much as it was the acts of war that directly tried to force it to stay together. That's what some would argue.

Originally posted by: Irrenarzt
What about my earlier question on your idea that apparently anything is legitimate to secede? What if I want to secede from city and state to murder in my own home? It's apparently my right to do so...


There are all sorts of reasons for secession. Some clearly more legitimate than others. Would you be doing this because you are of Native American descent and want to start your own sovereign land? Would you be doing this for religious reasons and/or because you fear persecution?

What I am getting at is legitimacy, for anything, is all in the eye of the beholder. The fundamental idea that one person has a say over your life and livelihood, more so than you do, is about the oldest trick in the book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killington,_Vermont_secession_movement

It still happens in this country all the time......be it from the State they are in........or the Union they no longer wish to be a part of.

To say that people should have no say in their own lives, or what is in their own interests, is essentially the same thing as saying that their is sound justification to supporting slavery in my eyes.
Post edited by Mockery at 12/23/2011 3:22:33 PM
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt

My belief is that I benefit more from an employed than unemployed neighbor. Giving that neighbor an opportunity over my own selfish consumerist desires is an annoyance, but ultimately better.


And it's absolutely your "choice" to do that.......but to force that on to others isn't exactly fair in my mind.

It's why people got so pissed off about the auto bailout and banking bailout.

Sure it helped keep a lot of people employed, who would have otherwise lost their jobs.......but at what cost to everyone else?

Charity works best when it's voluntary.......not enforced and taken through government gun point.

Originally posted by: Irrenarzt
And as I said before, that business it not going to survive purely off a government tariff... It's still up to them to produce a product people will buy. The government giving them the opportunity to do so is exactly what I would expect them to do though.


Say people don't want to buy their products? Say they are both overpriced and under quality compared to their foreign competition? Then what? Would entire neighborhoods of unemployed people, say in Flint, Michigan, be an acceptable outcome then?
Originally posted by: Mockery

The developing of further conflict wasn't as much the product of trying to "peacefully" separate from the Union as much as it was the acts of war that directly tried to force it to stay together. That's what some would argue.


Yep. It was the Union that invaded the Confederacy. The last four states to secede did so in direct response to Lincoln's call for invasion. Interestingly enough, all but two major battles in the war took place in the CSA. Gettysburg and Sharpsburg are the two exceptions. Also interesting, neither of those battles, both of which were the result of an actualy Confederate invasion, were preceded by rape, pillage, or destruction. The Confederates literally just walked through towns; they did not attack them in any way.


_________________
"The principle, on which the war was waged by the North, was simply this: That men may rightfully be compelled to submit to, and support, a government that they do not want; and that resistance, on their part, makes them traitors and criminals."
-- Massachusetts Abolitionist, Lysander Spooner
Here is what the Cherokee had to say about it:

Originally posted by: The Cherokee Nation


...Conscious that they were a people few in numbers compared with either of the contending parties, and that their country might with no considerable force be easily overrun and devastated and desolation and ruin be the result if they took up arms for either side, their authorities determined that no other course was consistent with the dictates of prudence or could secure the safety of their people and immunity from the horrors of a war waged by an invading enemy than a strict neutrality, and in this decision they were sustained by a majority of the nation.
That policy was accordingly adopted and faithfully adhered to. Early in the month of June of the present year the authorities of the nation declined to enter into negotiations for an alliance with the Confederate States, and protested against the occupation of the Cherokee country by their troops, or any other violation of their neutrality. No act was allowed that could be construed by the United States to be a violation of the faith of treaties.
But Providence rules the destinies of nations, and events, by inexorable necessity, overrule human resolutions. The number of the Confederate States has increased to eleven, and their Government is firmly established and consolidated. Maintaining in the field an army of 200,000 men, the war became for them but a succession of victories. Disclaiming any intention to invade the Northern States, they sought only to repel invaders from their own soil and to secure the right of governing themselves. They claimed only the privilege asserted by the Declaration of American Independence, and on which the right of the Northern States themselves to self-government is founded, of altering their form of government when it became no longer tolerable and establishing new forms for the security of their liberties...


Originally posted by: The Cherokee Nation
Whatever causes the Cherokee people may have had in the past, to complain of some of the Southern States, they cannot but feel that their interests and their destiny are inseparably connected with those of the South. The war now raging is a war of Northern cupidity and fanaticism against the institution of African servitude; against the commercial freedom of the South, and against the political freedom of the States, and its objects are to annihilate the sovereignty of those States and utterly change the nature of the General Government.


Post edited by Nathan Bedford Forrest at 12/23/2011 4:10:11 PM

_________________
"The principle, on which the war was waged by the North, was simply this: That men may rightfully be compelled to submit to, and support, a government that they do not want; and that resistance, on their part, makes them traitors and criminals."
-- Massachusetts Abolitionist, Lysander Spooner
Originally posted by: Mockery


But you just used every single one of the justifications for why the Revolutionary war SHOULD NOT have taken place.


No, I didn't. As I said, to compare the issues over tax and representation in the two situations is a huge stretch full of holes. An assigned government poorly communicating to a hereditary ruler over an extreme distance does not equal your elected officials losing in a majority vote.

There's a difference between an individual not giving you your say, and being collectively outnumbered by your neighbors. Pouting over losing votes is childish.
Originally posted by: Mockery


Who the hell was Canada to have to pay those taxes and not us? What the fuck made America so god damn special to not pay their loyalties to the queen? We were selfish and petty and should have just paid up for the improvement of the British empire, that we were also a part of........

Riddle me that......and I'll leave you alone.


Just did above. If the Canadians were in the same boat as us, they had legitimate reason if they so desired.

Originally posted by: Mockery


The developing of further conflict wasn't as much the product of trying to "peacefully" separate from the Union as much as it was the acts of war that directly tried to force it to stay together. That's what some would argue.


I'm not talking about the war that actually resulted... I'm talking about the obvious border, trade and resource conflicts that would occur with so many independent governments operating next to each other. Pretending the lack of unity would be utopian in comparison to how we function now is absurd.

Originally posted by: mockery
What I am getting at is legitimacy, for anything, is all in the eye of the beholder. The fundamental idea that one person has a say over your life and livelihood, more so than you do, is about the oldest trick in the book.


Yes, but the beholder isn't necessarily always rational, requiring some boundaries. Even the founding fathers recognized this.
Originally posted by: Irrenarzt

No, I didn't. As I said, to compare the issues over tax and representation in the two situations is a huge stretch full of holes. An assigned government poorly communicating to a hereditary ruler over an extreme distance does not equal your elected officials losing in a majority vote.


I agree with you that there were significant differences.....like I said before, I'm not even sure if I personally, on an individual basis, entirely agree with the Southern succession movement. Seeing as how I enjoy history, I just entertain certain mindsets and beliefs to obtain a minds eye of where the South was actually coming from.

I have done the same thing for just about every major war/battle that I have followed. Nobody goes to war knowing they are the bad guy......or the empirical dick head.......it's only history that tries (fairly or unjustly) to paint that lexicon out for us.

I like trying to find the justification for why major events in history took place. I don't believe in absolute answers, per se, as much as the individual thought processes that perpetuated such conflicts. That's all I was getting at. I'm not peddling or selling anything here. I also like that you are open an willing enough to validate and elaborate your beliefs. It's all I ever ask from anyone (even if we don't reach the same conclusion).

Originally posted by: Irrenarzt
There's a difference between an individual not giving you your say, and being collectively outnumbered by your neighbors. Pouting over losing votes is childish.


What if not getting your say is the direct result of not being fairly counted (like only 60% counted?)......what if losing votes is the product of a clearly rigged system that only favored the established ingrained powers......and not because it followed a true Republic.....nor a Democracy?

Only treating blacks like 3/5 of a person is pretty fucked up.........can you imagine if we tried to pass similar legislature today against the illegal aliens in the South? Talk about a shit storm of epic proportions.

Originally posted by: Irrenarzt

I'm not talking about the war that actually resulted... I'm talking about the obvious border, trade and resource conflicts that would occur with so many independent governments operating next to each other. Pretending the lack of unity would be utopian in comparison to how we function now is absurd.


Really, that's your justification? Exactly how bad was it when there were 13 entirely different colonies/governments all operating independently right next to one another?

How the hell did Europe function for centuries, how about every other major Continent on Earth?

How did this era of American history function?



Without further justification, I'm going with that's a massively fallacious argument. But I'll give it the open chance that I'm just missing something.

Originally posted by: Irrenarzt

Yes, but the beholder isn't necessarily always rational, requiring some boundaries. Even the founding fathers recognized this.


And sometimes the founding fathers weren't rational.......especially when they typed that whole "all men are created equal" section, as they held slave quarters in their backyards, and were shooting the shit out of Indians named Tonto all across this country.

Rational, irrational, all in the eye of the beholder (even if I have my own rigid standards and guidelines for what I personally feel is logical). That's what is so dangerous about collectivism and totalitarianism. It mandates that we are not individuals, but groups of people.......and that some people have the inherent right to demand/control what other people can/can't do with their individual lives. The more of that we have the less freedom and liberty we will ever enjoy.

The bigger and more centralized the government becomes......the less this concept of the individual holds any meaning and legitimacy. That's why I feel the incessant need to argue with you about your very pro, one world government, beliefs. It blatantly contradicts all that I personally hold dear to me as an individual (since that is all I've got).
Post edited by Mockery at 12/24/2011 4:01:06 PM
Originally posted by: Mockery

What if not getting your say is the direct result of not being fairly counted (like only 60% counted?)......what if losing votes is the product of a clearly rigged system that only favored the established ingrained powers......and not because it followed a true Republic.....nor a Democracy?

Only treating blacks like 3/5 of a person is pretty fucked up.........can you imagine if we tried to pass similar legislature today against the illegal aliens in the South? Talk about a shit storm of epic proportions.



I know what you're trying to say, but they got what they asked for. You can't bitch that your negro only gets you 3/5ths of a persons representation when you own him like property and don't let him vote.
Originally posted by: Mockery


Really, that's your justification? Exactly how bad was it when there were 13 entirely different colonies/governments all operating independently right next to one another?

How the hell did Europe function for centuries, how about every other major Continent on Earth?

How did this era of American history function?
).


The 13 colonies still fell under the same monarch. They weren't even close to autonomous like the level proposed under a confederation or separate nations.

Europe didn't function. Hundreds of wars, two being the largest the world has ever seen, prove that.