The fall of the greenback...

Is this the direct result of America consuming more than we produce?

Does America have to face the realization that we are in the beginning of a slow economic transition away from being a “growth” economy (to something more centralized like Europe has)??

This guy seems pretty optimistic:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16549840

It does appear that after years of blaming China for artificially manipulating the value of their currency that the Yuan is suddenly on the move…….

What do our TWL economists have for a short term outlook?? (And #1 cause)

(I imagine that there are a few of you guys/gals that are going to be real sharp on this topic)

Edit: Mispelled Yuan...

Post edited by Mockery at 12/1/2007 9:51:52 PM

I listened to the guy in the npr soundbyte...

Dude kinda makes sense.... What we all have to remember is that the value of China's yuan is artificially controlled by China.

So... you get articles like this:
Wall Street Journal

Japan's Finance Minister
Seeks Faster China Yuan Rise

BEIJING -- Japan's finance minister Saturday asked China to let its tightly controlled currency rise at "the fastest possible speed," aligning himself with other Group of Seven leaders pushing for quicker appreciation of the yuan.

So... Say that China starts making the yuan appreciate in value... it would have some dire consequences. Firstly... American investors would pull out... No sense in paying the freight and shipping for all the crap made in China if the cost of manufacturing increases... might as well get it from Mexico at that point.

Get a large pull out of investors buying goods... and it equalizes the unfair advantage China has over it's manufacturing competitors...

Would spell doom for China... wouldn't it? Well, maybe not doom... but a lot of invested projects would suffer.


That's why I think china is trying to kill... THE WORLD!

That's why I think china is trying to kill... THE WORLD!

One Mattel toy at at time....

This is why I support Hasbro, Hasbro is the better company. Death to Mattel!

I think you are absolutely correct Mack....

With Asia no longer suppressing their currencies value....Mexico is going to look a lot better to a lot of American manufactures.

This topic leads us into the question of whether or not there is going to be a bigger push to create a North American Union (or glorified NAFTA) in the immediate future.

There are a lot of things stirring that indicate to me that this NAU concept might not be as over hyped as people originally made it out to be.

Originally posted by: IrishRebel
This is why I support Hasbro, Hasbro is the better company. Death to Mattel!

And by better I assume you mean equally manufactured in China and smothered in a better flavored lead paint derivative.

Originally posted by: Mockery

Originally posted by: IrishRebel
This is why I support Hasbro, Hasbro is the better company. Death to Mattel!

And by better I assume you mean equally manufactured in China and smothered in a better flavored lead paint derivative.

Better as in Hasbro rawks!

I wouldn't say China nor Japan aren't trying to suppress their currencies, but the US dollar has fallen far enough they can no longer fall with it.

Over the past 2 years, the dollar has fallen
14.4% vs. the Canadian Dollar
20.1% vs. the Euro

while only
8.4% vs. China's Yuan
6.4% vs. Japan's Yen

It just economically difficult for them to fall as hard as we have but I believe they are still trying to a point. And after a certain point the competitive advantages they enjoy by fixing their currency to the US currency just aren't worth the cost since both import large quantities of raw materials from non-US sources.
Post edited by Stryk at 12/1/2007 10:18:02 PM

___________________________________________
"My answer is to burn all the fucking oil as quick as possible and then the politicians will have to find a solution.” - R.D.

Originally posted by: IrishRebel

Originally posted by: Mockery

Originally posted by: IrishRebel
This is why I support Hasbro, Hasbro is the better company. Death to Mattel!

And by better I assume you mean equally manufactured in China and smothered in a better flavored lead paint derivative.

Better as in Hasbro rawks!

They manufacture Transformers and lunch boxes......(Ok, they do rock then)
Post edited by Mockery at 12/1/2007 10:17:42 PM

Originally posted by: Mockery
I think you are absolutely correct Mack....

With Asia no longer suppressing their currencies value....Mexico is going to look a lot better to a lot of American manufactures.

This topic leads us into the question of whether or not there is going to be a bigger push to create a North American Union (or glorified NAFTA) in the immediate future.

There are a lot of things stirring that indicate to me that this NAU concept might not be as over hyped as people originally made it out to be.

Speaking of an NAU, I seem to recall that leaders of the US, Canada, and Mexico had a meeting or something to that effect of creating an NAU not very long ago. If so, tying that in with your idea, then they prolly saw something way in advance then the rest of us.

Originally posted by: Stryk
I wouldn't say China nor Japan aren't trying to suppress their currencies, but the US dollar has fallen far enough they can no longer fall with it.

Over the past 2 years, the dollar has fallen
14.4% vs. the Canadian Dollar
20.1% vs. the Euro

while only
8.4% vs. China's Yuan
6.4% vs. Japan's Yen

It just economically difficult for them to fall as hard as we have but I believe they are still trying to a point. And after a certain point the competitive advantages they enjoy by fixing their currency to the US currency just aren't worth the cost since both import large quantities of raw materials from non-US sources.

Good points....What do you believe the primary cause is for the dollars fall, Stryk?

Originally posted by: Mockery

Originally posted by: IrishRebel

Originally posted by: Mockery

Originally posted by: IrishRebel
This is why I support Hasbro, Hasbro is the better company. Death to Mattel!

And by better I assume you mean equally manufactured in China and smothered in a better flavored lead paint derivative.

Better as in Hasbro rawks!

They manufacture Transformers and lunch boxes......(Ok, they do rock then)

My opinion is biased though. :] Wizards of the Coast for the win! Support your local comic book shop and Magic: The Gathering place thing

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-

Originally posted by: Mockery
I think you are absolutely correct Mack....

With Asia no longer suppressing their currencies value....Mexico is going to look a lot better to a lot of American manufactures.

This topic leads us into the question of whether or not there is going to be a bigger push to create a North American Union (or glorified NAFTA) in the immediate future.

There are a lot of things stirring that indicate to me that this NAU concept might not be as over hyped as people originally made it out to be.

Speaking of an NAU, I seem to recall that leaders of the US, Canada, and Mexico had a meeting or something to that effect of creating an NAU not very long ago. If so, tying that in with your idea, then they prolly saw something way in advance then the rest of us.

Do you mean the September meeting in Banff??

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52063

If that is the case...I have to question Bush's motives for giving $500 million to Mexico's drug war efforts but allows trucks from south of border to play a major role in trafficking them into our country.

This has me believing that this money is going to be used to help Mexico fortify its southern border (as opposed to northern one they share with us).

What's with all this covert secretism one must ask....

Edit: sorry for posting worldnetdaily as a link...It was the first thing I could find.
Post edited by Mockery at 12/1/2007 10:30:55 PM

Originally posted by: Mockery

Originally posted by: Stryk
I wouldn't say China nor Japan aren't trying to suppress their currencies, but the US dollar has fallen far enough they can no longer fall with it.

Over the past 2 years, the dollar has fallen
14.4% vs. the Canadian Dollar
20.1% vs. the Euro

while only
8.4% vs. China's Yuan
6.4% vs. Japan's Yen

It just economically difficult for them to fall as hard as we have but I believe they are still trying to a point. And after a certain point the competitive advantages they enjoy by fixing their currency to the US currency just aren't worth the cost since both import large quantities of raw materials from non-US sources.

Good points....What do you believe the primary cause is for the dollars fall, Stryk?

Short term its the mortgage/interest rate mess. Long term its practicing unilateral free trade leading to an underlying economic decline.
Post edited by Stryk at 12/1/2007 10:31:56 PM

___________________________________________
"My answer is to burn all the fucking oil as quick as possible and then the politicians will have to find a solution.” - R.D.

blah blah blah.....

Remember in the 80's we were warned that Japan owned us, and that Japan would rule the world.

Didn't happen.

Not going to happen with China either, at least not without a democratic government.



VOTE GREEN PARTY FOR REAL POLITICAL REPRESENTATION! http://www.gp.org

Originally posted by: Abaques
If Snake and Cimat agree on something then I think its case closed.

Are we doing somebody's homework?

Originally posted by: cimat1984
blah blah blah.....

Remember in the 80's we were warned that Japan owned us, and that Japan would rule the world.

Didn't happen.

Didn't claim it was going to work out well for the Japanese. Its benefitted them, but then Korea got their act together and seriously encroach on their monopoly in the electronics industry. I remember over about 3 year the price of a TV, which were previously very stable, fell around 40% when the Koreans entered the marketplace.

And the effect on our economy from China isn't done yet.

Not going to happen with China either, at least not without a democratic government.

You sound like a neocon. Or, is this an appeal to arrogance & pride in order to make people *sleep*.
Post edited by Stryk at 12/1/2007 11:11:28 PM

___________________________________________
"My answer is to burn all the fucking oil as quick as possible and then the politicians will have to find a solution.” - R.D.

Originally posted by: Mockery

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-

Speaking of an NAU, I seem to recall that leaders of the US, Canada, and Mexico had a meeting or something to that effect of creating an NAU not very long ago. If so, tying that in with your idea, then they prolly saw something way in advance then the rest of us.

Do you mean the September meeting in Banff??

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52063

If that is the case...I have to question Bush's motives for giving $500 million to Mexico's drug war efforts but allows trucks from south of border to play a major role in trafficking them into our country.

This has me believing that this money is going to be used to help Mexico fortify its southern border (as opposed to northern one they share with us).

What's with all this covert secretism one must ask....

Edit: sorry for posting worldnetdaily as a link...It was the first thing I could find.

I really do not know. It seemed to fit when I read your post.

But, I am wondering if we did some sort of NAU where the 3 of us tied the 3 economies to the dollar and wonder if it would be such a bad thing. I am still pondering that though. My initial impression is that would help stem the illegal hordes heading north since they wont be making a killing against the peso anymore when they send it home as well as gaining access to Mexico's cheap labor -an offset against China's vast labor.

Hell, I am not an economist and really not sure what the implications and benefits would bring. I just know that if we continue to consume and not produce, we are fucked.

I learned economics from one of the best in the world, John Solow, son of the Nobel Prize winner in economics Robert Solow, and I don't fully understand what is going on. I should contact him and get his take on the current situation.

All fiat currencies fail and all empires fall.

Originally posted by: -]45th[-*Devil
All fiat currencies fail and all empires fall.

When good men do nothing and have become corrupt. Tell me, what would you do keep our Nation a superpower and continue our way of life? Or is that idea something abhorrent to you?

PATRIOTIC DISSENT IS A LUXURY OF THOSE PROTECTED BY BETTER MEN THAN THEY.

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-

Originally posted by: -]45th[-*Devil
All fiat currencies fail and all empires fall.

When good men do nothing and have become corrupt. Tell me, what would you do keep our Nation a superpower and continue our way of life? Or is that idea something abhorrent to you?

Why do we need to be a super power? That's a big part of the problem to begin with.

Baby boomers aren't saving (and many who have retired haven't saved) enough for their retirement. If the saving rate goes up (as it should) that would decrease consumer spending and contribute to a small decline in demand for goods which would amount to a small market correction in the manufacturing of goods. It would also negatively affect American consumers' demand for foreign goods (in addition to a existing drop in demand associated with the devaluation of the American dollar).


People need to increase their savings. Generally this means spending less which as a downside would aid fears of a recession. It seems at this point that consistently strong consumer demand is the only obstacle from the U.S. experiencing a recession. However those purchases seem to indicate that Americans still aren't saving enough despite knowing that if a recession were to hit that they would have little cash reserves to support their way of life (including meeting their debt obligations.)


To be honest a recession isn't a bad thing. A modest market correction every now and again can contribute to a stronger economic climate going forward. The housing market has already busted and a surge in demand is likely at least 12-18 months away.


I suppose the aim of the federal reserve is to decrease the frequency of market swings. Rather than a huge boom and a huge bust being a part of the periodic economic cycle they aim for their to be stable sustained economic growth coupled with stable periods of economic slowdowns.


Based on market sentiment one would guess that we are currently in a period of an economic slowdown already. Some signs are certainly there with a weak housing sector contributing to broad investment losses in the tens and hundreds of billions in addition to a large number of corporate layoffs in the automotive and lending industries. However recent economic reports indicate that the economy is growing in the neighborhood of 2-3% this year. In fact in the most recent quarter the annualized rate of economic growth was over 4%.


The question is why is there such a disconnect? Well I heard on NPR the other day (sorry I don't have a link) that much of the recent economic growth has been driven by upper income individuals whose spending has been robust and whose economic status has been little affected by the broader market weakness. Their spending on consumer goods is what is keeping this economy from further deterioration and from the dreaded recession that is just around the corner.


Middle income America does not have the financial strength as a whole to consistently maintain their current level of spending. Lower income families are hurting currently and their stagnation of wages has largely sidelined them in the current economic growth.


I don't think it would be too surprising to many of us that once the wealthy decide that they have had their fill of consumer goods that the American economy will indeed experience the long awaited recession.


How long that recession would last, I think, would directly correlate to the ability of the American people recover from a market slowdown which would inevitably expose their weakness--namely their lack of cash savings.
Post edited by -EB- Bluedoctor at 12/2/2007 11:45:22 AM

Originally posted by: Stryk
I wouldn't say China nor Japan aren't trying to suppress their currencies, but the US dollar has fallen far enough they can no longer fall with it.

Over the past 2 years, the dollar has fallen
14.4% vs. the Canadian Dollar
20.1% vs. the Euro

while only
8.4% vs. China's Yuan
6.4% vs. Japan's Yen

It just economically difficult for them to fall as hard as we have but I believe they are still trying to a point. And after a certain point the competitive advantages they enjoy by fixing their currency to the US currency just aren't worth the cost since both import large quantities of raw materials from non-US sources.

go further, but closer....what do I mean?

6 yrs or so ago .84 US cents got u 1-euro.

today? you need $1.49 or so to buy one euro...

that´s way more than 20% decline...

Bush´s economic policies have made the dollar tumble.

a country´s currency rises and fall due to a country´s MACRO-economic policies.

those reside squarely on the administration. it´s clear and irrefutable.

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-
......dont get all pissy cause I call you out for being a deceptive piece of shit...Too bad it is such a challenge for you to be a better person. I know I would never trust you in combat or when it counts. The bottom line is that you have no honor and you arent the "good person" you attempt to perpetrate on these forums with threads about "mom and dad" or your kids while you purposely fuck up threads about men who's lives are in the balance over accusations of murder and rape. The very men you just said you appreciate - yeah right. You're garbage aria. No class at all.

Originally posted by: Stryk

Originally posted by: Mockery

Originally posted by: Stryk
I wouldn't say China nor Japan aren't trying to suppress their currencies, but the US dollar has fallen far enough they can no longer fall with it.

Over the past 2 years, the dollar has fallen
14.4% vs. the Canadian Dollar
20.1% vs. the Euro

while only
8.4% vs. China's Yuan
6.4% vs. Japan's Yen

It just economically difficult for them to fall as hard as we have but I believe they are still trying to a point. And after a certain point the competitive advantages they enjoy by fixing their currency to the US currency just aren't worth the cost since both import large quantities of raw materials from non-US sources.

Good points....What do you believe the primary cause is for the dollars fall, Stryk?

Short term its the mortgage/interest rate mess. Long term its practicing unilateral free trade leading to an underlying economic decline.

it´s public debt. and the trade deficits when the gains in productivity are not so spectacular.

if u have trade deficits and productivity gains, then it is not so bad.

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-
......dont get all pissy cause I call you out for being a deceptive piece of shit...Too bad it is such a challenge for you to be a better person. I know I would never trust you in combat or when it counts. The bottom line is that you have no honor and you arent the "good person" you attempt to perpetrate on these forums with threads about "mom and dad" or your kids while you purposely fuck up threads about men who's lives are in the balance over accusations of murder and rape. The very men you just said you appreciate - yeah right. You're garbage aria. No class at all.

Originally posted by: Mackadoody

Are we doing somebody's homework?

Hahha...Yes and no....

I'm finally finished with college, so this isn’t for any class or grade.

But this topic does still concern me and after hours of researching I still can't entirely formulate what they hell is going on (exactly). This multidimensional rabbit hole seems to go down a lot further than I have the time to crawl.

Hence I want to know what everyone else’s 2 cents is.

Originally posted by: Aria Giovanni.pZ

Originally posted by: Stryk
I wouldn't say China nor Japan aren't trying to suppress their currencies, but the US dollar has fallen far enough they can no longer fall with it.

Over the past 2 years, the dollar has fallen
14.4% vs. the Canadian Dollar
20.1% vs. the Euro

while only
8.4% vs. China's Yuan
6.4% vs. Japan's Yen

It just economically difficult for them to fall as hard as we have but I believe they are still trying to a point. And after a certain point the competitive advantages they enjoy by fixing their currency to the US currency just aren't worth the cost since both import large quantities of raw materials from non-US sources.

go further, but closer....what do I mean?

6 yrs or so ago .84 US cents got u 1-euro.

today? you need $1.49 or so to buy one euro...

that´s way more than 20% decline...

Bush´s economic policies have made the dollar tumble.

a country´s currency rises and fall due to a country´s MACRO-economic policies.

those reside squarely on the administration. it´s clear and irrefutable.

Last I checked:

Federal Reserve >>>>>>>> Single President

When it comes to macroeconomics and monetary regulation topics.

I would argue that by continuing to remain in NAFTA and allowing our trade deficit to remain in the "OMG my ass hurts" level our president has simply done what every other presidents have done (need I break out those stats to clarify?).

I need something more specific than "I blame Bush"...give me a policy that he has implemented for us to discuss.


We have been running an absolutely abysmal trade deficit every single year since Nixon was in office (so why the sudden change?). If you believe it has something to do with our federal deficit....well that too has been there for decades. With the exception of Andrew Jackson, I don’t know of a single American president that has ever paid it off…..(I will, however, agree with you that Bush has been spending money like he is at a clearance sale).

Now that the national deficit is around 9 trillion dollars, apparently we owe another 1.2 billion dollars every single day (just in interest). With numbers like this I have a hard time imagining that this isn’t finally catching up with us (but it certainly isn’t something that is new). So, again, why the sudden change….

Are all of these decades worth of neglect slowly catching up with us??? Is George Bush (or who/what ever comes after him) going to be our next Herbert Hoover (ie. escape goat for years worth of crap fiscal policy)?

Post edited by Mockery at 12/2/2007 2:12:03 PM

Originally posted by: -EB- Bluedoctor
Baby boomers aren't saving (and many who have retired haven't saved) enough for their retirement. If the saving rate goes up (as it should) that would decrease consumer spending and contribute to a small decline in demand for goods which would amount to a small market correction in the manufacturing of goods. It would also negatively affect American consumers' demand for foreign goods (in addition to a existing drop in demand associated with the devaluation of the American dollar).


People need to increase their savings. Generally this means spending less which as a downside would aid fears of a recession. It seems at this point that consistently strong consumer demand is the only obstacle from the U.S. experiencing a recession. However those purchases seem to indicate that Americans still aren't saving enough despite knowing that if a recession were to hit that they would have little cash reserves to support their way of life (including meeting their debt obligations.)


To be honest a recession isn't a bad thing. A modest market correction every now and again can contribute to a stronger economic climate going forward. The housing market has already busted and a surge in demand is likely at least 12-18 months away.


I suppose the aim of the federal reserve is to decrease the frequency of market swings. Rather than a huge boom and a huge bust being a part of the periodic economic cycle they aim for their to be stable sustained economic growth coupled with stable periods of economic slowdowns.


Based on market sentiment one would guess that we are currently in a period of an economic slowdown already. Some signs are certainly there with a weak housing sector contributing to broad investment losses in the tens and hundreds of billions in addition to a large number of corporate layoffs in the automotive and lending industries. However recent economic reports indicate that the economy is growing in the neighborhood of 2-3% this year. In fact in the most recent quarter the annualized rate of economic growth was over 4%.


The question is why is there such a disconnect? Well I heard on NPR the other day (sorry I don't have a link) that much of the recent economic growth has been driven by upper income individuals whose spending has been robust and whose economic status has been little affected by the broader market weakness. Their spending on consumer goods is what is keeping this economy from further deterioration and from the dreaded recession that is just around the corner.


Middle income America does not have the financial strength as a whole to consistently maintain their current level of spending. Lower income families are hurting currently and their stagnation of wages has largely sidelined them in the current economic growth.


I don't think it would be too surprising to many of us that once the wealthy decide that they have had their fill of consumer goods that the American economy will indeed experience the long awaited recession.


How long that recession would last, I think, would directly correlate to the ability of the American people recover from a market slowdown which would inevitably expose their weakness--namely their lack of cash savings.

You have just confirmed my fears (BTW...thanks for your fantastic contribution).

I was afraid that this upcoming holiday season (and the fed cutting interest rates *again*) is going to be the last artificial prop that our economy is going to get before we begin our inevitable decent into another big recession.

There are simply too many things going wrong, at the exact same time, for us to get out of this (in the short term) smelling like a rose IMO.

2008 is shaping up to be an interesting year.

Originally posted by: Mockery

Originally posted by: -EB- Bluedoctor
Baby boomers aren't saving (and many who have retired haven't saved) enough for their retirement. If the saving rate goes up (as it should) that would decrease consumer spending and contribute to a small decline in demand for goods which would amount to a small market correction in the manufacturing of goods. It would also negatively affect American consumers' demand for foreign goods (in addition to a existing drop in demand associated with the devaluation of the American dollar).


People need to increase their savings. Generally this means spending less which as a downside would aid fears of a recession. It seems at this point that consistently strong consumer demand is the only obstacle from the U.S. experiencing a recession. However those purchases seem to indicate that Americans still aren't saving enough despite knowing that if a recession were to hit that they would have little cash reserves to support their way of life (including meeting their debt obligations.)


To be honest a recession isn't a bad thing. A modest market correction every now and again can contribute to a stronger economic climate going forward. The housing market has already busted and a surge in demand is likely at least 12-18 months away.


I suppose the aim of the federal reserve is to decrease the frequency of market swings. Rather than a huge boom and a huge bust being a part of the periodic economic cycle they aim for their to be stable sustained economic growth coupled with stable periods of economic slowdowns.


Based on market sentiment one would guess that we are currently in a period of an economic slowdown already. Some signs are certainly there with a weak housing sector contributing to broad investment losses in the tens and hundreds of billions in addition to a large number of corporate layoffs in the automotive and lending industries. However recent economic reports indicate that the economy is growing in the neighborhood of 2-3% this year. In fact in the most recent quarter the annualized rate of economic growth was over 4%.


The question is why is there such a disconnect? Well I heard on NPR the other day (sorry I don't have a link) that much of the recent economic growth has been driven by upper income individuals whose spending has been robust and whose economic status has been little affected by the broader market weakness. Their spending on consumer goods is what is keeping this economy from further deterioration and from the dreaded recession that is just around the corner.


Middle income America does not have the financial strength as a whole to consistently maintain their current level of spending. Lower income families are hurting currently and their stagnation of wages has largely sidelined them in the current economic growth.


I don't think it would be too surprising to many of us that once the wealthy decide that they have had their fill of consumer goods that the American economy will indeed experience the long awaited recession.


How long that recession would last, I think, would directly correlate to the ability of the American people recover from a market slowdown which would inevitably expose their weakness--namely their lack of cash savings.

You have just confirmed my fears (BTW...thanks for your fantastic contribution).

I was afraid that this upcoming holiday season (and the fed cutting interest rates *again*) is going to be the last artificial prop that our economy is going to get before we begin our inevitable decent into another big recession.

There are simply too many things going wrong, at the exact same time, for us to get out of this (in the short term) smelling like a rose IMO.

2008 is shaping up to be an interesting year.

The Bush regime may be trying to delay the inevitable recession until after the November 2008 election for two reasons:

1. A recession prior to the election will make it even harder than it already is to elect whatever goon gets the repubican nomination, and,
2. Delaying, by artificial means, the recession until after the election makes it the next administrations fault-probably a democratic administration at the rate the republicans are self-destructing.



VOTE GREEN PARTY FOR REAL POLITICAL REPRESENTATION! http://www.gp.org

Originally posted by: Abaques
If Snake and Cimat agree on something then I think its case closed.

Originally posted by: -]45th[-*Devil

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-

Originally posted by: -]45th[-*Devil
All fiat currencies fail and all empires fall.

When good men do nothing and have become corrupt. Tell me, what would you do keep our Nation a superpower and continue our way of life? Or is that idea something abhorrent to you?

Why do we need to be a super power? That's a big part of the problem to begin with.

Yes, it's our fault for being good at we do and then squandering instead of capitalizing on it.

Amazing.

PATRIOTIC DISSENT IS A LUXURY OF THOSE PROTECTED BY BETTER MEN THAN THEY.

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-

Originally posted by: -]45th[-*Devil

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-

Originally posted by: -]45th[-*Devil
All fiat currencies fail and all empires fall.

When good men do nothing and have become corrupt. Tell me, what would you do keep our Nation a superpower and continue our way of life? Or is that idea something abhorrent to you?

Why do we need to be a super power? That's a big part of the problem to begin with.

Yes, it's our fault for being good at we do and then squandering instead of capitalizing on it.

Amazing.

tying in being a superpower and having a good way of life is simply a fallacy.

OMG'S YOU DONT WANT TO BE A SUPERPOWER YOU HATE OUR WAY OF LIFE!

i dont think it works that way. we can have one over the other if need be.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The right is more virtuous than the left. They have twice as many virtues because they have double the standards.

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-

Originally posted by: -]45th[-*Devil

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-

Originally posted by: -]45th[-*Devil
All fiat currencies fail and all empires fall.

When good men do nothing and have become corrupt. Tell me, what would you do keep our Nation a superpower and continue our way of life? Or is that idea something abhorrent to you?

Why do we need to be a super power? That's a big part of the problem to begin with.

Yes, it's our fault for being good at we do and then squandering instead of capitalizing on it.

Amazing.

Random site I'm using for generic "facts"

According to this site, which I know nothing about and only use to make a generic point, Switzerland is the 4th freest nation on the planet while the U.S. comes in at 5th.

When was the last time that Switzerland went around policing the world and building and empire?

They were not in WW1 or WW2. They are not in the European Union. They keep to themselves and don't seem to bug anyone and at least according to this site they manage to be freer than us, though only by a small margin.

The point is, running an empire that polices the world does not make you free.

Just imagine how free we could be if we didn't police the world and make everyone hate us. Then W and his pals wouldn't have to take our freedoms (that the terrorist hate us for....) with bullshit legislation and free speech zones and the like to keep us safe.

So, like I said. Being the super power that we are is part of the problem with this country.

Originally posted by: Kal-
I learned economics from one of the best in the world, John Solow, son of the Nobel Prize winner in economics Robert Solow, and I don't fully understand what is going on. I should contact him and get his take on the current situation.

Ill tell you exactly whats happening.

750 billion dollar trade deficit,

skyrocketing health care costs

a population that has a larger ageing population then working population

A mortgage fail rate that is the highest in US history

A falling US dollar

Insane energy prices

and last but not least, the future of our nation...ie our children are not being educated properly and have placed 3rd to last in the world in basic courses like math, science, and geography.
Post edited by Andy_187 at 12/2/2007 11:07:04 PM

You must have also assumed that most of us don't know dick about this.

Like myself.

Originally posted by: Aria Giovanni.pZ

Originally posted by: Stryk
I wouldn't say China nor Japan aren't trying to suppress their currencies, but the US dollar has fallen far enough they can no longer fall with it.

Over the past 2 years, the dollar has fallen
14.4% vs. the Canadian Dollar
20.1% vs. the Euro

while only
8.4% vs. China's Yuan
6.4% vs. Japan's Yen

It just economically difficult for them to fall as hard as we have but I believe they are still trying to a point. And after a certain point the competitive advantages they enjoy by fixing their currency to the US currency just aren't worth the cost since both import large quantities of raw materials from non-US sources.

go further, but closer....what do I mean?

6 yrs or so ago .84 US cents got u 1-euro.

today? you need $1.49 or so to buy one euro...

that´s way more than 20% decline...

Bush´s economic policies have made the dollar tumble.

a country´s currency rises and fall due to a country´s MACRO-economic policies.

those reside squarely on the administration. it´s clear and irrefutable.

Blame whoever you want Aria! I didn't see Bush whispering into the ears of credit applicants, "if you don't do it, I'm going to attack the Congo"!

Nice try though!

The problems in the credit market are causing a flight to quality. The Fed has lowered intrests rates to all time lows creating a hugh amount of liquidity. That easy money found it's way to unqualified applicants.

Most investors see the writing on the wall. The party is over in the US. Not only that, but when in the world will the US ever make a comeback from the coming credit crunch.

Little does the rest of the world realize, we are the economy that will ruin their fortunes too.

So, moving to Spain wasn't such a great idea afterall!

That is why our government is actually talking about bailing out all these people who will have credit problems.

This will have lasting economic consequences for the world!

Originally posted by: -]45th[-*Devil


Random site I'm using for generic "facts"

According to this site, which I know nothing about and only use to make a generic point, Switzerland is the 4th freest nation on the planet while the U.S. comes in at 5th.

When was the last time that Switzerland went around policing the world and building and empire?

They were not in WW1 or WW2. They are not in the European Union. They keep to themselves and don't seem to bug anyone and at least according to this site they manage to be freer than us, though only by a small margin.

The point is, running an empire that polices the world does not make you free.

Just imagine how free we could be if we didn't police the world and make everyone hate us. Then W and his pals wouldn't have to take our freedoms (that the terrorist hate us for....) with bullshit legislation and free speech zones and the like to keep us safe.

So, like I said. Being the super power that we are is part of the problem with this country.

Some people will have you believe that Switzerland is so free because they play the role of "neutral” whenever world wars break out around them…or because they “stick to themselves” and never mess around in other countries affairs.

In my opinion it is essentially their liberal banking systems power that enables their freedoms….

They are more than happy to hold the financial assets of any country that is willing to invest in them (be it in the form of gold [from the teeth of holocaust victims ala the Nazis] or from the rich conglomerate types trying to find a haven that helps avoid their countries tax codes [ala Ken Lay types and stolen 401ks]).

It will always be easy to play neutral (and profit hand over fist from it) when they know that someone else is going to be there to fight their enemies for them.

I truly wish that I could follow Ron Paul's ideas and believe that America could ever go back to being an Isolationist again. I really do.....
Post edited by Mockery at 12/3/2007 1:49:51 AM

Originally posted by: Andy_187

Originally posted by: Kal-
I learned economics from one of the best in the world, John Solow, son of the Nobel Prize winner in economics Robert Solow, and I don't fully understand what is going on. I should contact him and get his take on the current situation.

Ill tell you exactly whats happening.

750 billion dollar trade deficit,

skyrocketing health care costs

a population that has a larger ageing population then working population

A mortgage fail rate that is the highest in US history

A falling US dollar

Insane energy prices

and last but not least, the future of our nation...ie our children are not being educated properly and have placed 3rd to last in the world in basic courses like math, science, and geography.

However, the good news is that our children most likely will not be requiring a better education if America continues on its current path.

With a little luck every real engineering job, research and development facility, and educational think tank will be outsourced overseas before 2015.

Our children only need to be just smart enough to swipe a credit card and drive to their nearest retailer to buy material shit they don’t need (and ultimately can’t afford).

Our children being able to recognize that they will owe a lifetime of debt (both inherited and otherwise) before they can talk or walk is entirely overrated.

Originally posted by: [-NM-] Pudd¿nheäd

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-

Originally posted by: -]45th[-*Devil

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-

Originally posted by: -]45th[-*Devil
All fiat currencies fail and all empires fall.

When good men do nothing and have become corrupt. Tell me, what would you do keep our Nation a superpower and continue our way of life? Or is that idea something abhorrent to you?

Why do we need to be a super power? That's a big part of the problem to begin with.

Yes, it's our fault for being good at we do and then squandering instead of capitalizing on it.

Amazing.

tying in being a superpower and having a good way of life is simply a fallacy.

OMG'S YOU DONT WANT TO BE A SUPERPOWER YOU HATE OUR WAY OF LIFE!

i dont think it works that way. we can have one over the other if need be.

Wow, I am very surprised at you.

My point was that US has been a superpower since the end of WW2 and we have enjoyed a great way of life. Now everything that was created and earned back then is being squandered on a wide range things from illegal immigration to the decline of our economic strength through loss of our manufacturing might or technological advancement.

I really do think that if you dont believe in your own country, then you dont stand for much except for your own selfish ideals. No where does that imply we should be out policing the world or footing their bills through "foreign aid" either. We need to take care of our own people and provide a good example to the rest of the world. Want to help another country out? Fine, use a charity, not the US taxpayer.

So yeah, in a sense, I do think that if you cant back your own country, then you have a very fucked up sense of identity -especially if you view the US as an "empire".

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-

Originally posted by: [-NM-] Pudd¿nheäd

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-

Originally posted by: -]45th[-*Devil

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-

Originally posted by: -]45th[-*Devil
All fiat currencies fail and all empires fall.

When good men do nothing and have become corrupt. Tell me, what would you do keep our Nation a superpower and continue our way of life? Or is that idea something abhorrent to you?

Why do we need to be a super power? That's a big part of the problem to begin with.

Yes, it's our fault for being good at we do and then squandering instead of capitalizing on it.

Amazing.

tying in being a superpower and having a good way of life is simply a fallacy.

OMG'S YOU DONT WANT TO BE A SUPERPOWER YOU HATE OUR WAY OF LIFE!

i dont think it works that way. we can have one over the other if need be.

Wow, I am very surprised at you.

My point was that US has been a superpower since the end of WW2 and we have enjoyed a great way of life. Now everything that was created and earned back then is being squandered on a wide range things from illegal immigration to the decline of our economic strength through loss of our manufacturing might or technological advancement.

I really do think that if you dont believe in your own country, then you dont stand for much except for your own selfish ideals. No where does that imply we should be out policing the world or footing their bills through "foreign aid" either. We need to take care of our own people and provide a good example to the rest of the world. Want to help another country out? Fine, use a charity, not the US taxpayer.

So yeah, in a sense, I do think that if you cant back your own country, then you have a very fucked up sense of identity -especially if you view the US as an "empire".

Though I value my own State more than the other 49, I do back my own Country. I love this place. I don't, however, blindly follow or support alot of the things that our government does.

I thought it was pretty obvious that we are an empire. For example:

1. Congress basically doesn't matter any more. We are so close to being an actual dictatorship it is scary. (Through things like the Military Commissions Act, the "Patriot" Act and PDD 51)

2. There are 190 nations on this planet. We have a military presence in 130 of them.

3. We are constantly at war around the globe speading "our democracy and way of life."

Those same 3 things are descriptive of Rome at its height. Just like Rome, we were founded as a Republic but through corruption and greed on the behalf of the politicians and laziness on the behalf of the people we have become an empire.

Originally posted by: Cocytus

Originally posted by: Aria Giovanni.pZ

Originally posted by: Stryk
I wouldn't say China nor Japan aren't trying to suppress their currencies, but the US dollar has fallen far enough they can no longer fall with it.

Over the past 2 years, the dollar has fallen
14.4% vs. the Canadian Dollar
20.1% vs. the Euro

while only
8.4% vs. China's Yuan
6.4% vs. Japan's Yen

It just economically difficult for them to fall as hard as we have but I believe they are still trying to a point. And after a certain point the competitive advantages they enjoy by fixing their currency to the US currency just aren't worth the cost since both import large quantities of raw materials from non-US sources.

go further, but closer....what do I mean?

6 yrs or so ago .84 US cents got u 1-euro.

today? you need $1.49 or so to buy one euro...

that´s way more than 20% decline...

Bush´s economic policies have made the dollar tumble.

a country´s currency rises and fall due to a country´s MACRO-economic policies.

those reside squarely on the administration. it´s clear and irrefutable.

Blame whoever you want Aria! I didn't see Bush whispering into the ears of credit applicants, "if you don't do it, I'm going to attack the Congo"!

Nice try though!

The problems in the credit market are causing a flight to quality. The Fed has lowered intrests rates to all time lows creating a hugh amount of liquidity. That easy money found it's way to unqualified applicants.

Most investors see the writing on the wall. The party is over in the US. Not only that, but when in the world will the US ever make a comeback from the coming credit crunch.

Little does the rest of the world realize, we are the economy that will ruin their fortunes too.

So, moving to Spain wasn't such a great idea afterall!

That is why our government is actually talking about bailing out all these people who will have credit problems.

This will have lasting economic consequences for the world!

euros.

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-
......dont get all pissy cause I call you out for being a deceptive piece of shit...Too bad it is such a challenge for you to be a better person. I know I would never trust you in combat or when it counts. The bottom line is that you have no honor and you arent the "good person" you attempt to perpetrate on these forums with threads about "mom and dad" or your kids while you purposely fuck up threads about men who's lives are in the balance over accusations of murder and rape. The very men you just said you appreciate - yeah right. You're garbage aria. No class at all.