Stupid

TeamWarfare Vet

2007-11-29 18:32

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,313683,00.html

Teen Jehovah's Witness Leukemia Patient Dies After Refusing Blood Transfusion

MOUNT VERNON, Wash. A few hours after a Mount Vernon judge ruled that a 14-year-old Jehovah's Witness sick with leukemia had the right to refuse a blood transfusion, even though that refusal might kill him, the boy died in a Seattle hospital.

Dennis Lindberg of Mount Vernon died shortly before 9 p.m. Wednesday in his bed at Children's Hospital and Regional Medical Center, the boy's biological father, Dennis Lindberg Sr., told the Seattle Post-Intelligencer.
...
...
...
Doctors diagnosed the boy with leukemia in early November and began treating him with chemotherapy at Children's Hospital, but stopped a week ago because his blood count was too low, the Skagit Valley Herald reported. The boy refused the transfusion on religious grounds.

However, his birth parents, Lindberg Sr. and Rachel Wherry, who do not have custody and flew from Boise, Idaho, to be at the hearing, believed their son should have had the transfusion and suggested he had been unduly influenced by his legal guardian, his aunt Dianna Mincin, who is also a Jehovah's Witness.

I don't know what else to say about this.

It IS someone's right to deny medical treatment for religious purposes... Y'know? A doctor doesn't have the right to damn someone to the fiery pits of hell or nothing... to save your life...

I ABSOLUTELY believe that it's a RIDICULOUS practice... but... if you gotta go? You gotta go.

But this kid was 14 years old.

Did the legal guardian tell the kid... well, if God calls you, then you must answer his call... or live for eternity in HELL!

Kid's friggin' 14!!!!

Anyway... what the HELL is wrong with the biological parents that they didn't have custody of their own child?
What the hell is wrong with the stupid Aunt who's the legal guardian?
What the hell?

Stupid.... just plain stupid.

Abaques

TeamWarfare Vet

2007-11-29 18:37

Yeah, fuck that kid's legal guardian. She should be held responsible for his death. If you are under 18 then the state should not let you deny something that would save your life.

Now if you're over 18 then I don't care, but thats not the case here.

Stones

Oh Eff EnTeamWarfare Vet

2007-11-29 18:39

It's their right.
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Mackadoody

TeamWarfare Vet

2007-11-29 18:42

It's their right.... but it's stupid.

Post edited by Mackadoody at 11/29/2007 6:46:27 PM

Stones

Oh Eff EnTeamWarfare Vet

2007-11-29 18:44

Originally posted by: Mackadoody
It's their right.... but it's stupid.

How's it stupid?

Are you one of those people that believes the government or state shouldn't be able to stick their nose into our business unless it's stuff like this?
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samUwell

evil capitalist pig TeamWarfare VetTWL Contributor

2007-11-29 18:46

reminds me of this :

Ron Paul on the war on drugs

Mackadoody

TeamWarfare Vet

2007-11-29 18:47

Originally posted by: Stones
Originally posted by: Mackadoody
It's their right.... but it's stupid.

How's it stupid?

Are you one of those people that believes the government or state shouldn't be able to stick their nose into our business unless it's stuff like this?

I can respect their right... I don't have to agree with it.
That's a big thing with Medical Ethics.
You wanna save their life... they refuse treatment.
Okay... bye

But when the kid is 14?
The hospital tried to ask the court if they could save his life, because the kid's a minor... but it's his right...

Okay... bye.
Stupid.

Stones

Oh Eff EnTeamWarfare Vet

2007-11-29 18:49

I wonder how many people live for very long with blood transfusions for leukemia like this?
Isn't it just prolonging the inevitable?
Post edited by Stones at 11/29/2007 6:50:46 PM

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Mackadoody

TeamWarfare Vet

2007-11-29 18:56

The blood transfusion was to support the kid so his body could continue fighting the leukemia.
Leukemia causes anemia... a lack of red blood cells to carry oxygen.

Kid was just diagnosed in the beginning of the month...

How do you like them apples?
Happy Halloween... btw, you have leukemia...
4 weeks later
DEAD

sucks.

-]45th[-*Devil

TeamWarfare Vet

2007-11-29 19:01

Originally posted by: Stones
It's their right.

DieselFuel!

TeamWarfare VetTWL Contributor

2007-11-29 19:01

Originally posted by: samUwell
reminds me of this :

Ron Paul on the war on drugs

He is 100% exactly correct.

Mackadoody

TeamWarfare Vet

2007-11-29 19:03

Found this real quick

5-year survival rate for white children under 15-years old with acute lymphocytic leukaemia is 75.0% in the US 1983-90 (SEER)

Listen... any extra time you can garner with a loved one is precious.

My father in law has a plasmacytoma... diagnosed in 2004... Any time the grandkids can spend with him is gold.

A legal guardian might not agree.

leroybrown

/uninstall TeamWarfare Vet

2007-11-29 19:16

Religion is wacky.

-]45th[-*Devil

TeamWarfare Vet

2007-11-29 19:41

Originally posted by: samUwell
reminds me of this :

Ron Paul on the war on drugs

He is right and, wow, he fucking owned that kid too.

Digm

Lost AdminTeamWarfare Vet

2007-11-29 19:48

Originally posted by: Stones
How's it stupid?

Because it goes against nature.

Every creature, from the human to the amoeba, instinctually moves away from things that can harm it and towards things that can sustain it.

So, anyone who goes against that is stupid. And anyone who defends that stupidity is stupid. Lots of stupid to go around. Who wants seconds?

But of course it's their right. Plus, it helps weed out the gene pool.

the penguin

Batman's boy toyTeamWarfare Vet

2007-11-29 19:54

Originally posted by: Mackadoody
Did the legal guardian tell the kid... well, if God calls you, then you must answer his call... or live for eternity in HELL!

Kid's friggin' 14!!!!

well if she did, she clearly doesnt know anything about God. if you believe in God, it follows that He allowed all the medical advances we have today, such as surgery, blood transfusions, and the like. it's His indirect way of curing people. its not like Jesus comes, heals people, and leaves... God simply allows for humans to heal other humans. if she thinks that a blood transfusion in and of itself is sinful, then thats pretty much blasphemy. so basically, she knows nothing about God.
_______________________

Originally posted by: the wierdo
There's nothing like a little child molestation to bring people together and rise above the partisanship

Originally posted by: Pudd¿nheäd
ive been wanting coq for some time now, and im goin for it on sunday!

Originally posted by: Aria Giovanni.pZ
kok. i want kok. lots of kok.

W. B. Yeats

doesn't sleep, he waitsTeamWarfare Vet

2007-11-29 20:01

Originally posted by: the penguin
Originally posted by: Mackadoody
Did the legal guardian tell the kid... well, if God calls you, then you must answer his call... or live for eternity in HELL!

Kid's friggin' 14!!!!

well if she did, she clearly doesnt know anything about God. if you believe in God, it follows that He allowed all the medical advances we have today, such as surgery, blood transfusions, and the like. it's His indirect way of curing people. its not like Jesus comes, heals people, and leaves... God simply allows for humans to heal other humans. if she thinks that a blood transfusion in and of itself is sinful, then thats pretty much blasphemy. so basically, she knows nothing about God.

And you know nothing about religion if you think there is one definitive version of Christian faith.

leroybrown

/uninstall TeamWarfare Vet

2007-11-29 20:02

Yeah well thats your belief, not hers. But we're talking about religion here so of course whatever you think is right and everyone else is wrong.

I was talking to Penguin not yeats.
Post edited by leroybrown at 11/29/2007 8:03:04 PM

the penguin

Batman's boy toyTeamWarfare Vet

2007-11-29 20:06

well yes i know theres more than one definition of christianity, but i dont see how that if you believe in God you can say that---

nevermind, my point does require a specific belief, not a general christian belief.
_______________________

Originally posted by: the wierdo
There's nothing like a little child molestation to bring people together and rise above the partisanship

Originally posted by: Pudd¿nheäd
ive been wanting coq for some time now, and im goin for it on sunday!

Originally posted by: Aria Giovanni.pZ
kok. i want kok. lots of kok.

Mackadoody

TeamWarfare Vet

2007-11-29 20:32

Jehovah's Witnesses are a strange off-shoot of Christianity...

Basically, it comes down to a few passages from the Bible:
From Wikipedia

Using biblical texts such as Genesis 9:3; Leviticus 17:10 and Acts 15:29, the current doctrine states that:

* Blood is sacred to God.
* Blood means life in God's eyes.
* Blood must not be eaten or transfused.
* Blood leaving the body of a human or animal must be disposed of, except for autologous blood transfusions considered part of a current therapy.
* Blood was reserved for only one special use, the atonement for sins, which led up to Jesus' shed blood.
* When a Christian abstains from blood, he or she is in effect expressing faith that only the shed blood of Jesus Christ can truly redeem him or her and save his or her life.
* Even in the case of an emergency, it is not permissible to sustain life with transfused blood.
* Conscientious violation of this doctrine is a serious offense, after which a member is subject to organized shunning, known amongst Jehovah's Witnesses as being disfellowshipped or disassociated.

It's their right...
A doctor must respect their right.

We can all think they're stupid...

Mackadoody

TeamWarfare Vet

2007-11-29 20:34

The main argument comes from Leviticus

Leviticus 17:10 (21st Century King James Version)
10"`And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among you, who eateth any manner of blood, I will even set My face against that soul who eateth blood and will cut him off from among his people.

wacky, eh?

leroybrown

/uninstall TeamWarfare Vet

2007-11-29 20:49

You mean The Bible? Yeah.

samUwell

evil capitalist pig TeamWarfare VetTWL Contributor

2007-11-29 21:03

Originally posted by: -]45th[-*Devil
Originally posted by: samUwell
reminds me of this :

Ron Paul on the war on drugs

He is right and, wow, he fucking owned that kid too.

lol.... yes, yes he did.

[-NM-] -SS-

TeamWarfare Vet

2007-11-29 21:23

Originally posted by: samUwell
reminds me of this :

Ron Paul on the war on drugs

He raped that kid. But he is right, gvt wasnt the answer then and isnt the answer now. They made their choice [whether we like it or not] and have to live with it.

(SF) DirtyRatFink

Still an outsiderTeamWarfare Vet

2007-11-29 22:54

Originally posted by: W. B. Yeats
Originally posted by: the penguin
Originally posted by: Mackadoody
Did the legal guardian tell the kid... well, if God calls you, then you must answer his call... or live for eternity in HELL!

Kid's friggin' 14!!!!

well if she did, she clearly doesnt know anything about God. if you believe in God, it follows that He allowed all the medical advances we have today, such as surgery, blood transfusions, and the like. it's His indirect way of curing people. its not like Jesus comes, heals people, and leaves... God simply allows for humans to heal other humans. if she thinks that a blood transfusion in and of itself is sinful, then thats pretty much blasphemy. so basically, she knows nothing about God.
And you know nothing about religion if you think there is one definitive version of Christian faith.

And you know nothing about the Christian faith if you think that jehovas witnesses are christians. They dont beleive in the diety of Jesus, they dont beleive in the Trinity, they dont beleive in salvation through Jesus. As Christian literally means "Christ in us", if you dont beleive in Christ, youre not Christian.

anarchist-

Culinary TerroristTeamWarfare Vet

2007-11-30 03:45

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-
Originally posted by: samUwell
reminds me of this :

Ron Paul on the war on drugs

He raped that kid. But he is right, gvt wasnt the answer then and isnt the answer now. They made their choice [whether we like it or not] and have to live with it.

lol nice...//on topic, it's merely evolution taking it's course.

-S-Co.Smokey

News ManagerTeamWarfare NewsTWL Contributor

2007-11-30 09:36

Originally posted by: Abaques
Yeah, fuck that kid's legal guardian. She should be held responsible for his death. If you are under 18 then the state should not let you deny something that would save your life.

Now if you're over 18 then I don't care, but thats not the case here.

Every American has the right to die. Once you're that old, you have more choices than you would think.

My cousin just went through a custody battle over his 15 year old daughter. She told the court she wished to live with her mother out of state, and the court made it so. No amount of argument could stop it.

-Swo0p

100% oranje TeamWarfare Vet

2007-11-30 10:03

Can someone tell me why if you got in a car accident, have no arms and legs, cannot breath on your own, can consciously make the decision that NO you don't want to live anymore, you can't request they pull the plug?

Mackadoody

TeamWarfare Vet

2007-11-30 10:04

You can... it's your right

DieselFuel!

TeamWarfare VetTWL Contributor

2007-11-30 10:05

It shouldn't be the government's business one way or another.

Mackadoody

TeamWarfare Vet

2007-11-30 10:08

In this kid's case... I think he's stupid... but he's dead, so what's that matter?
A lot of living can be done between your freshman year of highschool to graduation. First kiss, first crush, run one out the first time... etc.

Some decisions are good, some are stupid. Like an abused woman who has a restraining order on her ex-... and she wants to reconcile.
STUPID.
But she can do it... you can't stop her.

-Swo0p

100% oranje TeamWarfare Vet

2007-11-30 10:28

Originally posted by: Mackadoody
In this kid's case... I think he's stupid... but he's dead, so what's that matter?
A lot of living can be done between your freshman year of highschool to graduation. First kiss, first crush, run one out the first time... etc.

Some decisions are good, some are stupid. Like an abused woman who has a restraining order on her ex-... and she wants to reconcile.
STUPID.
But she can do it... you can't stop her.

Yeah but its ironic when the kid can decide on his own life, but not if he wants to buy a heineken.

Blakhart

Where's the tinfoil?TeamWarfare Vet

2007-11-30 10:42

The second thing you do is to ask for permission to treat. The first thing you do is check the scene for danger. If the victim is unresponsive, permission to treat is implied in all cases. Good samaritan laws cover your arse no matter what they would have responded if able. You are to perform life saving measures unless they are decapitated or told to cease by a doctor. Well, if they've begun decomposing you can forgo it too. My paramedic instructor said so.

Kristine65

I can read occifer!

2007-11-30 11:25

Originally posted by: DieselFuel!
Originally posted by: samUwell
reminds me of this :

Ron Paul on the war on drugs

He is 100% exactly correct.

Originally posted by: Mackadoody
Jehovah's Witnesses are a strange off-shoot of Christianity...

Basically, it comes down to a few passages from the Bible:
From Wikipedia

Using biblical texts such as Genesis 9:3; Leviticus 17:10 and Acts 15:29, the current doctrine states that:

* Blood is sacred to God.
* Blood means life in God's eyes.
* Blood must not be eaten or transfused.
* Blood leaving the body of a human or animal must be disposed of, except for autologous blood transfusions considered part of a current therapy.
* Blood was reserved for only one special use, the atonement for sins, which led up to Jesus' shed blood.
* When a Christian abstains from blood, he or she is in effect expressing faith that only the shed blood of Jesus Christ can truly redeem him or her and save his or her life.
* Even in the case of an emergency, it is not permissible to sustain life with transfused blood.
* Conscientious violation of this doctrine is a serious offense, after which a member is subject to organized shunning, known amongst Jehovah's Witnesses as being disfellowshipped or disassociated.

It's their right...
A doctor must respect their right.

We can all think they're stupid...

Meh , if they don't wanna live, let them die!

Pillbug

TeamWarfare Vet

2007-11-30 11:38

Originally posted by: -S-Co.Smokey
Every American has the right to die. Once you're that old, you have more choices than you would think.

Then why is it illegal to kill yourself?
Why do people get put in mental institutions for trying to kill him/herself?

And why is it we have this hypocricy where it's okay to let yourself die and not try and fight it when you have a chronic or terminal disease but you can't do it when you've just got a broken heart?

I don't get it...

the penguin

Batman's boy toyTeamWarfare Vet

2007-11-30 19:07

Originally posted by: Mackadoody
A lot of living can be done between your freshman year of highschool to graduation. First kiss, first crush, run one out the first time... etc.

but not always!

and yeah, this is why im not a jehovah's witness. (actually it isnt, but it makes me glad im not )
_______________________

Originally posted by: the wierdo
There's nothing like a little child molestation to bring people together and rise above the partisanship

Originally posted by: Pudd¿nheäd
ive been wanting coq for some time now, and im goin for it on sunday!

Originally posted by: Aria Giovanni.pZ
kok. i want kok. lots of kok.

the penguin

Batman's boy toyTeamWarfare Vet

2007-11-30 19:22

Originally posted by: Pillbug
Then why is it illegal to kill yourself?

afaik suicide isnt legal, but assisting someone in suicide is. i could be wrong though.
_______________________

Originally posted by: the wierdo
There's nothing like a little child molestation to bring people together and rise above the partisanship

Originally posted by: Pudd¿nheäd
ive been wanting coq for some time now, and im goin for it on sunday!

Originally posted by: Aria Giovanni.pZ
kok. i want kok. lots of kok.

Mockery

TWL Member

2007-11-30 21:01

Originally posted by: Stones
Originally posted by: Mackadoody
It's their right.... but it's stupid.

How's it stupid?

Are you one of those people that believes the government or state shouldn't be able to stick their nose into our business unless it's stuff like this?

No...F' the governments nose.

But I can see where this does become slightly more difficult when it involves minors. Some laws have been established specifically for minors, as preventative measures to ensure their safety in the event that their parents are complete retards.

Take child seats as an example.it forces children to be in a safety seat, in a specific direction, where some parents would be more than content to just have them ride on their quadriplegic Uncles Joes lap (or on the top of the car if your Britney Spears kid).

Its why children arent allowed to smoke are forced to wear a helmet on a bike.etc etc.

But adults have options(to do stupid shit)

Basically the government is trying to allow them to mature enough to eventually make their own decisions on whether or not they want to continue doing/undoing these things.

Im not sure if I even agree with it..but it is a precedent (for what it's worth)

I personally think more laws (for adults) should be a choice like this.

Puckfist

TWL Member

2007-12-01 16:17

Originally posted by: (SF) DirtyRatFink
And you know nothing about the Christian faith if you think that jehovas witnesses are christians. They dont beleive in the diety of Jesus, they dont beleive in the Trinity, they dont beleive in salvation through Jesus. As Christian literally means "Christ in us", if you dont beleive in Christ, youre not Christian.

How did anyone let that slide?

I advise you go read up on Jahovah's Witnesses if you think they don't believe in Jesus. Few but the Catholics believe in the trinity too...

Coba|t

TeamWarfare Vet

2007-12-01 16:22

The teens stupid parents should have told the doctor about this aspect of their religion before they began chemo.

They bear some responsibility for the death of their son because they didn't fully inform their doctor of these preferences before they began treatment.