Liberty Dollar Sues the Fed, the Fed Raids Liberty Dollar and Steals Their Gold

EVANSVILLE, Ind. (AP) — Federal agents raided the headquarters of a group that produces illegal currency and puts it in circulation, seizing gold, silver and two tons of copper coins featuring Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul.

Agents also took records, computers and froze the bank accounts at the "Liberty Dollar" headquarters during the Thursday raid, Bernard von NotHaus, founder of the National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve Act & Internal Revenue Code, said in an interview.

The organization, which is critical of the Federal Reserve, has repeatedly clashed with the federal government, which contends that the gold, silver and copper coins it produces are illegal. NORFED claims its Liberty Dollars are inflation free and can restore stability to financial markets by allowing commerce based on a currency that does not fluctuate in value like the U.S. dollar.

"They're running scared right now and they had to do something," von NotHaus told The Associated Press Friday. "I'm volunteering to meet the agents and get arrested so we can thrash this out in court."

According to the company, NORFED has produced an estimated $20 million of its own paper currency in the past two decades, claiming its $1, $5 and $10 denominations were backed by silver stored in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho.

Federal agents also raided the group's storage facilities in Idaho, von NotHaus said.

...

The raid comes eight months after von NotHaus filed a lawsuit in federal court in Evansville seeking a permanent injunction to stop the federal government from labeling the Liberty Dollar an illegal currency.

The U.S. Mint issued a warning this year that the Liberty Dollar violated the Constitution and warned consumers against using them unsuspectingly.

And you wonder why we have the 2nd Amendment.

http://www.libertydollar.org

Yea! Bring back the silver standard too!
Then I kin re-open me mines!

I read that somewhere...

I thought it was an advertisement or something.


Who's Ron Paul?

This guy?

Artlicle I, Section VIII, says the Liberty Dollar fails at life.
___________________________________________
"My answer is to burn all the fucking oil as quick as possible and then the politicians will have to find a solution.” - R.D.

Fuck the Federal Reserve.
_________________________

God created Anarchy. Man created Government. I'll stick with God.

Originally posted by: Zombee
I hope someone shoots you in the face.

Yea, we get it, you like jon raul.

RuPaul?
___________________________________________
"My answer is to burn all the fucking oil as quick as possible and then the politicians will have to find a solution.” - R.D.

Originally posted by: Stryk
Artlicle I, Section VIII, says the Liberty Dollar fails at life.

You are forgetting one very important point: Gold has value, Silver has value. If I want to trade you 5 pieces of Gold for a car, that's not illegal.

That's exactly what the Liberty Dollar does.

---

[SMS]Gortok
Lead Writer, TeamWarfare General News
Email: gortok@teamwarfare.com
IRC: #teamwarfare #sms

Originally posted by: Mackadoody
Who's Ron Paul?

Ron Paul is the only candidate that is a staunch constitutionalist. He's a Libertarian in Republican clothing, and he scares the establishment because he says what needs to be said -- not what he think his constituents want to hear.

---

[SMS]Gortok
Lead Writer, TeamWarfare General News
Email: gortok@teamwarfare.com
IRC: #teamwarfare #sms

Originally posted by: Stryk
Artlicle I, Section VIII, says the Liberty Dollar fails at life.

Setting aside the crushing irony of you trying to quote the Constitution for a second...

Maybe you should read it again:

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

Congress has the power to coin money and punish those that counterfeit that money, but they don't have the power to monopolize all currency and dictate what is and is not tender. Perhaps you could highlight it for me.

It's almost preposterous to suggest. I mean, I could have have a collection of something really valuable - like porn. Then, I could take a bunch of college ruled notebook paper and write STRYK SMOKES POLE across it. Then, I could certify that each of those pieces of paper represent a portion of my porn collection. Now, if I could convince merchants that my porn collection is really valuable, are you saying the Federal Government can control what private businesses take as payment? Last I checked, people can agree on any forms of contractual compensation they see fit... whether it's barter, exchange, currency, or STRYK SMOKES POLE notes.

Originally posted by: Gortok

Originally posted by: Stryk
Artlicle I, Section VIII, says the Liberty Dollar fails at life.

You are forgetting one very important point: Gold has value, Silver has value. If I want to trade you 5 pieces of Gold for a car, that's not illegal.

That's exactly what the Liberty Dollar does.

So what happens when you live in a state with sales tax on the gold you're using to buy the car?
Are you going to shave your gold to dust and pay the taxes due on it?

Originally posted by: Gortok

Originally posted by: Stryk
Artlicle I, Section VIII, says the Liberty Dollar fails at life.

You are forgetting one very important point: Gold has value, Silver has value. If I want to trade you 5 pieces of Gold for a car, that's not illegal.

That's exactly what the Liberty Dollar does.

The actual physical uses for gold can be more than satisfied by the supply.

Its value far outstrips it practical worth. Making shinny bobbles is what gave gold is mythical value.

The going price of gold is more fictitious and volatile than the value of the US Dollar. Even more so. It is vulnerable to a highly speculative commodities market that we currently have.
Post edited by Stryk at 11/17/2007 3:03:32 PM

___________________________________________
"My answer is to burn all the fucking oil as quick as possible and then the politicians will have to find a solution.” - R.D.

In fact, speculation has recently run up the price of gold. It may go higher, but it likely eventually go lower than it is now.

Invest in these dollars and you might screw yourself if the price of gold drops.

Bahhh. Can't stop people from being a fish on a hook. Nevermind.
___________________________________________
"My answer is to burn all the fucking oil as quick as possible and then the politicians will have to find a solution.” - R.D.

Originally posted by: Digm

Originally posted by: Stryk
Artlicle I, Section VIII, says the Liberty Dollar fails at life.

Setting aside the crushing irony of you trying to quote the Constitution for a second...

Maybe you should read it again:

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

Congress has the power to coin money and punish those that counterfeit that money, but they don't have the power to monopolize all currency and dictate what is and is not tender. Perhaps you could highlight it for me.

It's almost preposterous to suggest. I mean, I could have have a collection of something really valuable - like porn. Then, I could take a bunch of college ruled notebook paper and write STRYK SMOKES POLE across it. Then, I could certify that each of those pieces of paper represent a portion of my porn collection. Now, if I could convince merchants that my porn collection is really valuable, are you saying the Federal Government can control what private businesses take as payment? Last I checked, people can agree on any forms of contractual compensation they see fit... whether it's barter, exchange, currency, or STRYK SMOKES POLE notes.

"regulate the Value thereof"

A second currency would threaten to destabilize the current US currency. Based on this clause they would be empowered to act. Nevermind there were countless private currencies in the past, all stampped out.

"STRYK SMOKES POLE" assuming this doesn't generate a ban, I assume it atleast shows you know you have no leg to stand on and you're promoting wishful thinking.
___________________________________________
"My answer is to burn all the fucking oil as quick as possible and then the politicians will have to find a solution.” - R.D.

The dollar has turned to shit since we got away from the gold standard during Nixon.

As of right now, I see no crime that has been committed. These folks have the right idea and this is actually a scary story to read the Feds going in and taking something that doesnt belong to them.

PATRIOTIC DISSENT IS A LUXURY OF THOSE PROTECTED BY BETTER MEN THAN THEY.

Originally posted by: Stryk

The going price of gold is more fictitious and volatile than the value of the US Dollar. Even more so. It is vulnerable to a highly speculative commodities market that we currently have.

This is a joke, right?

I mean, you do understand economics, and aren't just spouting stuff out, right?

Gold's value is dictated (like everything else in the Free market) on its supply relative to its demand (I'm being simplistic on purpose). The supply of gold doesn't increase readily, yet it's demand stays constant, or goes higher as people see it as a viable alternative to the dollar.

Here's an example.

If I had invested in gold back when it was 400 dollars an ounce, I would have made a profit of 300 dollars per ounce right now (It's at ~$787 right now). If I only have the dollar, it isn't backed by anything other than the word of the US Government. Currently, that word doesn't mean much, and the dollar is through the floor.

At one time, we were on a true Gold standard -- the reason is that it's very very hard to have inflation when there is a constant value of something -- where it isn't possible to 'flood' the market with Gold, because only so much of it exists. With the dollar, all the US Mint has to do is print more dollars (which they did to bail out the Banks in the Subprime crisis), and when that happens, you have price inflation.

It is the dollar that is highly speculative, because we strayed from the Gold standard. If we went back to it, we'd have less fluctuation, but people would actually have to have fiscal responsibility.

---

[SMS]Gortok
Lead Writer, TeamWarfare General News
Email: gortok@teamwarfare.com
IRC: #teamwarfare #sms

Agents also took records, computers......

well, the feds got me in their records.

Gold's value is a myth. The only commodity with real value these days is a barrel of oil. Or maybe a kilo of uranium.

Originally posted by: Gortok

Originally posted by: Stryk

The going price of gold is more fictitious and volatile than the value of the US Dollar. Even more so. It is vulnerable to a highly speculative commodities market that we currently have.

This is a joke, right?

I mean, you do understand economics, and aren't just spouting stuff out, right?

Gold's value is dictated (like everything else in the Free market) on its supply relative to its demand (I'm being simplistic on purpose). The supply of gold doesn't increase readily, yet it's demand stays constant, or goes higher as people see it as a viable alternative to the dollar.

Here's an example.

If I had invested in gold back when it was 400 dollars an ounce, I would have made a profit of 300 dollars per ounce right now (It's at ~$787 right now). If I only have the dollar, it isn't backed by anything other than the word of the US Government. Currently, that word doesn't mean much, and the dollar is through the floor.

At one time, we were on a true Gold standard -- the reason is that it's very very hard to have inflation when there is a constant value of something -- where it isn't possible to 'flood' the market with Gold, because only so much of it exists. With the dollar, all the US Mint has to do is print more dollars (which they did to bail out the Banks in the Subprime crisis), and when that happens, you have price inflation.

It is the dollar that is highly speculative, because we strayed from the Gold standard. If we went back to it, we'd have less fluctuation, but people would actually have to have fiscal responsibility.

Hunt Brothers & Silver. Google it.
___________________________________________
"My answer is to burn all the fucking oil as quick as possible and then the politicians will have to find a solution.” - R.D.

Originally posted by: Stryk
Paper > Gold

Gold and Silver inflate in price, if it didn't, it wouldn't be an investment.

DUH!

Originally posted by: -]45th[-*Devil

Originally posted by: Stryk
Paper > Gold

Although that's not what I said, it is remarkably poetic on multiple levels.
Post edited by Stryk at 11/17/2007 5:20:29 PM

___________________________________________
"My answer is to burn all the fucking oil as quick as possible and then the politicians will have to find a solution.” - R.D.

Originally posted by: Abaques
Gold's value is a myth. The only commodity with real value these days is a barrel of oil. Or maybe a kilo of uranium.

Let's start making uranium coins with Abaques face on them

---

nov-em-ber.my-space

Originally posted by: novEmb3R

Originally posted by: Abaques
Gold's value is a myth. The only commodity with real value these days is a barrel of oil. Or maybe a kilo of uranium.

Let's start making uranium coins with Abaques face on them

Haha! I'm totally down with this plan!

Yall reckon this is why they got shut down?

The only way for gold or silver, ie real money, to increase in apparent value is for the dollar to be effectively devalued. I don't think gold and silver can inflate or deflate.

Originally posted by: Stryk

Originally posted by: Gortok

Originally posted by: Stryk

The going price of gold is more fictitious and volatile than the value of the US Dollar. Even more so. It is vulnerable to a highly speculative commodities market that we currently have.

This is a joke, right?

I mean, you do understand economics, and aren't just spouting stuff out, right?

Gold's value is dictated (like everything else in the Free market) on its supply relative to its demand (I'm being simplistic on purpose). The supply of gold doesn't increase readily, yet it's demand stays constant, or goes higher as people see it as a viable alternative to the dollar.

Here's an example.

If I had invested in gold back when it was 400 dollars an ounce, I would have made a profit of 300 dollars per ounce right now (It's at ~$787 right now). If I only have the dollar, it isn't backed by anything other than the word of the US Government. Currently, that word doesn't mean much, and the dollar is through the floor.

At one time, we were on a true Gold standard -- the reason is that it's very very hard to have inflation when there is a constant value of something -- where it isn't possible to 'flood' the market with Gold, because only so much of it exists. With the dollar, all the US Mint has to do is print more dollars (which they did to bail out the Banks in the Subprime crisis), and when that happens, you have price inflation.

It is the dollar that is highly speculative, because we strayed from the Gold standard. If we went back to it, we'd have less fluctuation, but people would actually have to have fiscal responsibility.

Hunt Brothers & Silver. Google it.

that same argument can be turned around to read like this; gold is more stable than the us dollar as reflected in the high dollar to gold ratio. the value of gold stays relatively the same while the dollar plummets.
Post edited by anarchist- at 11/17/2007 6:48:57 PM

Originally posted by: Blakhart
The only way for gold or silver, ie real money, to increase in apparent value is for the dollar to be effectively devalued. I don't think gold and silver can inflate or deflate.

Which is it, gold or silver?

Originally posted by: anarchist-

Originally posted by: Stryk

Originally posted by: Gortok

Originally posted by: Stryk

The going price of gold is more fictitious and volatile than the value of the US Dollar. Even more so. It is vulnerable to a highly speculative commodities market that we currently have.

This is a joke, right?

I mean, you do understand economics, and aren't just spouting stuff out, right?

Gold's value is dictated (like everything else in the Free market) on its supply relative to its demand (I'm being simplistic on purpose). The supply of gold doesn't increase readily, yet it's demand stays constant, or goes higher as people see it as a viable alternative to the dollar.

Here's an example.

If I had invested in gold back when it was 400 dollars an ounce, I would have made a profit of 300 dollars per ounce right now (It's at ~$787 right now). If I only have the dollar, it isn't backed by anything other than the word of the US Government. Currently, that word doesn't mean much, and the dollar is through the floor.

At one time, we were on a true Gold standard -- the reason is that it's very very hard to have inflation when there is a constant value of something -- where it isn't possible to 'flood' the market with Gold, because only so much of it exists. With the dollar, all the US Mint has to do is print more dollars (which they did to bail out the Banks in the Subprime crisis), and when that happens, you have price inflation.

It is the dollar that is highly speculative, because we strayed from the Gold standard. If we went back to it, we'd have less fluctuation, but people would actually have to have fiscal responsibility.

Hunt Brothers & Silver. Google it.

that same argument can be turned around to read like this; gold is more stable than the us dollar as reflected in the high dollar to gold ratio. the value of gold stays relatively the same while the dollar plummets.

Right...

During the Spike in the late 70's, by a factor of 50 (yes, ten), did products cost 10x more and then fall to roughly 1x more than the mid-70's?

A couple of years of 300+% inflation would have worked out really well, wouldn't it have.

Post edited by Stryk at 11/17/2007 7:18:10 PM

___________________________________________
"My answer is to burn all the fucking oil as quick as possible and then the politicians will have to find a solution.” - R.D.

hard to say if that 70's inflation would have happened had we not left the gold standard.

"Which is it, gold or silver?"
Both, but gold is a more valuable metal, for the same weight. Gold is at 780 or so oz, a silver dollar, over the counter, can be had for what, $15 right now? Some places it's even higher.

Doesn't that mean that FRN's, compared to a real silver dollar have been real-world devalued 15 to 1? When i bought silver it was $11 for the same silver dollar. This will likely get worse as we progress deeper into ruin.
But keep in mind that when the dollar is used for tp or rolling paper, gold and silver will still get you a loaf of bread. The people I know who own gold and silver do so for that reason.

The value of gold and silver is almost just as arbitrary as that of paper money. Thats what I find the most amusing about this whole situation.

No one seems to remember why we left the gold and silver standards in the first place...

Originally posted by: Abaques
The value of gold and silver is almost just as arbitrary as that of paper money. Thats what I find the most amusing about this whole situation.

No one seems to remember why we left the gold and silver standards in the first place...

i'll admit i'm not an expert on this...so why did we leave the gold standard?

I admit money is a human idea, the value of wich can be largely arbitrary. In the same light one can also say that government only exists in the minds of men. But if the dollar keeps spiraling downward, gold and silver will still be held as valuable.

FFS's people google a historical gold or silver price chart and then tell me its a stable system.
___________________________________________
"My answer is to burn all the fucking oil as quick as possible and then the politicians will have to find a solution.” - R.D.

Back to the original silliness

This "Liberty Dollar" group was originally NORFED
http://www.norfed.com/

This is short for "National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve and Internal Revenue Code"
http://www.libertydollar.org/information/nlfiles/1998V0N01.pdf

Well so much for not trying to undermine the US Currency.
___________________________________________
"My answer is to burn all the fucking oil as quick as possible and then the politicians will have to find a solution.” - R.D.

Originally posted by: Stryk
Back to the original silliness

This "Liberty Dollar" group was originally NORFED
http://www.norfed.com/

This is short for "National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve and Internal Revenue Code"
http://www.libertydollar.org/information/nlfiles/1998V0N01.pdf

Well so much for not trying to undermine the US Currency.

US Currency != IRS and Federal Reserve

If we eliminated the IRS and the Federal Reserve, and went back to a gold standard, you'd see Inflation in check, and people would be able to spend more of their own money. The post-keynesians (such as yourself) would have a fit.

---

[SMS]Gortok
Lead Writer, TeamWarfare General News
Email: gortok@teamwarfare.com
IRC: #teamwarfare #sms

I love how these gold/silver fanatics claim that these metals have stable value and are inflation proof.

What a crock.

Gold and silver value fluctuates daily on the markets.

Also, a currency can only be inflation proof if the government sets the prices of everything - like the USSR did. The ruble was inflation proof, and look where that got them.



VOTE GREEN PARTY FOR REAL POLITICAL REPRESENTATION! http://www.gp.org

Originally posted by: Abaques
If Snake and Cimat agree on something then I think its case closed.

Originally posted by: Blakhart
The only way for gold or silver, ie real money, to increase in apparent value is for the dollar to be effectively devalued. I don't think gold and silver can inflate or deflate.

If a huge new gold deposit were found tomorrow that flooded the market with more gold, the price would go down. Therefore, the price would deflate.



VOTE GREEN PARTY FOR REAL POLITICAL REPRESENTATION! http://www.gp.org

Originally posted by: Abaques
If Snake and Cimat agree on something then I think its case closed.

Originally posted by: cimat1984

Originally posted by: Blakhart
The only way for gold or silver, ie real money, to increase in apparent value is for the dollar to be effectively devalued. I don't think gold and silver can inflate or deflate.

If a huge new gold deposit were found tomorrow that flooded the market with more gold, the price would go down. Therefore, the price would deflate.

If King Dick Cheney melts down his solid gold toilet throne to pay for 4 new mansions and an oil tanker, the market will be flooded.

If the French every decide to melt the gold in versaille, it is enough to send the entire gold market crashing down.

And furthermore, fuck you dirty libertarians, go live on an island and spend your tokens there.