Ann Arbor says NO! to war in Iraq...

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/1203-01.htm

What does the middle east have plenty of? Dictators and Oil. What are they worth- NOT ONE DROP OF AMERICAN BLOOD!

This is an excellent way to get anti-war viewpoints out to the public, and to the federal goverment.

Yours truly, Anti-War and Pro-Soldier,

cimat1984

"Raving Liberal Lunatic"
Go Green! http://www.greenpartyus.org

damb cimat, you say you're pro-soldier so often like you're afraid dominus is gonna come bust through your door and beat you down

War against Iraq, or.. Invasion and conquest?
...............................
Trap¥
Teamwarfare Mechwarrior4 Mercenaries Ladder admin

Originally posted by: HamNEggs

damb cimat, you say you're pro-soldier so often like you're afraid dominus is gonna come bust through your door and beat you down

Actually- Dom has me in a headlock right now!

Seriously- there are some stupid people in the anti war movement who lose their focus and become anti-soldier (remember the babykiller taunts from vietnam?). I want to let people know that I respect and admire the brave men and women in armed services. It is the policy of the civilian leadership (Busy/Cheney) that I vehemently disagree with.

Peace, and all that good stuff!


"Raving Liberal Lunatic"
Go Green! http://www.greenpartyus.org

Originally posted by: Trap¥

War against Iraq, or.. Invasion and conquest?

I like to think of it as a Crusade. Yep, I said it.

Carpet bomb Hussein's regime back to the stone age.

Every entity within his regime who has been responsible for the rape, torture and murder of thousands should have their very own Daisy Cutter fedex'd to them.


Knights of Invictus
2004 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE

I'd knock on Cimat's door and offer him a beer

I'm anti-violence against fellow americans, even if they are "Tree Hugging Dirt Worshippers and TWL Contributors".


Knights of Invictus
2004 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE

Awwww.......Dom rocks!


"Raving Liberal Lunatic"
Go Green! http://www.greenpartyus.org

I am anti-bitter beer face


Knights of Invictus
2004 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE

Amen to that, Brother! Give me a nice tasty Guiness any day


"Raving Liberal Lunatic"
Go Green! http://www.greenpartyus.org

the wh0re says... nuke em and loot em
...............................
Trap¥
Teamwarfare Mechwarrior4 Mercenaries Ladder admin

ick

you got a better idea? letting em develop isnt exactly good, i'd rather send a bomber over Sadams house, and pretend a meteor hit it. we already know they've got nukes and chem bombs...
...............................
Trap¥
Teamwarfare Mechwarrior4 Mercenaries Ladder admin

Originally posted by: Trap¥

you got a better idea? letting em develop isnt exactly good, i'd rather send a bomber over Sadams house, and pretend a meteor hit it. we already know they've got nukes and chem bombs...

Yes- do nothing. That's my idea. Is Saddam evil? Yes. Do the Iraqi people deserve better? You bet they do? One of the reasons things are so screwed up in the middle east is that every other country in the world is over there trying to fix everything all the time, and it doesn't work. Iraq is surrounded by enemies. Saddam is not a threat to the US. Has he attacked us? No. Was he our ally during the entire 1980's? Yes. Is there any link between Iraq and al-queda? No. Did the first inspection regulations destroy 95% of all WMD Iraq had? Yes.

There you have it. I do not support any war in Iraq. No good will come of it.


"Raving Liberal Lunatic"
Go Green! http://www.greenpartyus.org

we get less than 10% of our oil from Iraq, we get more oil from Canada than anyone else.

Saving Private Ryan = best movie ever:

Capt. Miller: James.... Earn this.

fast forward 50 years

James Ryan to wife: Tell me I've led a good life. Tell me I'm a good man.

-pheirce

well, for the safety of Iraq's neibors and our own, i'd either like to inspect every singel factory/compound/mosque there and look for nuke weps, materials, etc every 3 months. if then we dont find any, well then after Sadaam lets go of his grip of political office, then'll i'll accept neutrality with them.

they were building nukes in 2 damn mosques, kinda makes you wonder...
...............................
Trap¥
Teamwarfare Mechwarrior4 Mercenaries Ladder admin

Everyone knows what I think. I'm not out to say your viewpoint is bad (Cimat), I can tell you that in fact their is links between Iraq and al-queda. Every country with an active intelligence knows that. In fact, our own country has intelligence reports regarding meetings between al-queda officals and Iraqi officials that they've disclosed to the public.

Bottom line here folks... we will & should go to war with Iraq. The whole No Blood for Oil sounds like a good chant but it's not for the oil... anyone who knows me, knows I couldn't give two shits about that as we should be using alternative fuels anyways. And besides that, we get our current oil from outside Iraq. If we take out Saddam's regime and lay the smack down on Syria and Iran too, we will cripple all these extremist groups to the point they will become ineffective and the Palestinians and Israeli's will finally have breathing space of peace to talk and work out their issues which will eventually lead to stability in the Middle East.

And I find it very hard to believe that 95% of all WMD items, programs were destroyed/shut down Cimat. Where are you getting that information from? I mean, they got kicked out of the country and even IF you're right that 95% was gone by then... that 5% is more than enough to build upon for the last decade that Iraq has deliberately broke every agreement they made with the UN which ceased the Persian Gulf War to begin with. Those agreements were the ONLY reason Iraq didn't get their asses handed to them completely.

Thank you for our attention to this matter. Beer and Peanuts can be found in the isleway.
Post edited by DoMiNuS at 12/3/2002 11:42:39 PM


Knights of Invictus
2004 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE

Originally posted by: cimat1984

Originally posted by: Trap¥

you got a better idea? letting em develop isnt exactly good, i'd rather send a bomber over Sadams house, and pretend a meteor hit it. we already know they've got nukes and chem bombs...

Yes- do nothing. That's my idea. Is Saddam evil? Yes. Do the Iraqi people deserve better? You bet they do? One of the reasons things are so screwed up in the middle east is that every other country in the world is over there trying to fix everything all the time, and it doesn't work. Iraq is surrounded by enemies. Saddam is not a threat to the US. Has he attacked us? No. Was he our ally during the entire 1980's? Yes. Is there any link between Iraq and al-queda? No. Did the first inspection regulations destroy 95% of all WMD Iraq had? Yes.

There you have it. I do not support any war in Iraq. No good will come of it.

If you were around during WWII, would you have supported us sending troops to storm the beach at Normandy? It was a direct response to a different country attacking America (Pearl Harbor) and peace-nics of the day argued that nothing good would come of it.

-pheirce

Originally posted by: DoMiNuS

Everyone knows what I think. I'm not out to say your viewpoint is bad (Cimat), I can tell you that in fact their is links between Iraq and al-queda. Every country with an active intelligence knows that. In fact, our own country has intelligence reports regarding meetings between al-queda officals and Iraqi officials that they've disclosed to the public.
***Yes- Iraqi intel and Al-Queda did meet- and Iraq chose not to work with al-Queda. Bottom line- if saddam can't call the shots, he won't work with al-queda.

Bottom line here folks... we will & should go to war with Iraq. The whole No Blood for Oil sounds like a good chant but it's not for the oil... anyone who knows me, knows I couldn't give two shits about that as we should be using alternative fuels anyways. And besides that, we get our current oil from outside Iraq. If we take out Saddam's regime and lay the smack down on Syria and Iran too, we will cripple all these extremist groups to the point they will become ineffective and the Palestinians and Israeli's will finally have breathing space of peace to talk and work out their issues which will eventually lead to stability in the Middle East.

**And the fact is, if we install a govement there, no matter how democratic it is- the people of the country will not support it: see south vietnam, pre-1979 Iran

And I find it very hard to believe that 95% of all WMD items, programs were destroyed/shut down Cimat. Where are you getting that information from? I mean, they got kicked out of the country and even IF you're right that 95% was gone by then... that 5% is more than enough to build upon for the last decade that Iraq has deliberately broke every agreement they made with the UN which ceased the Persian Gulf War to begin with. Those agreements were the ONLY reason Iraq didn't get their asses handed to them completely.

****And none of those agreements allowed for military retaliation. Remember, the US agreed to those UN resolutions too. If we don't keep our word, why should anyone else?

***Scott Ritter(former marine)- head of the UN weapons inspectors until 12-98 has made this claim numerous times to the media

Thank you for our attention to this matter. Beer and Peanuts can be found in the isleway.

Individual responses listed above.....


"Raving Liberal Lunatic"
Go Green! http://www.greenpartyus.org

Originally posted by: pheirce

Originally posted by: cimat1984

Originally posted by: Trap¥

you got a better idea? letting em develop isnt exactly good, i'd rather send a bomber over Sadams house, and pretend a meteor hit it. we already know they've got nukes and chem bombs...

Yes- do nothing. That's my idea. Is Saddam evil? Yes. Do the Iraqi people deserve better? You bet they do? One of the reasons things are so screwed up in the middle east is that every other country in the world is over there trying to fix everything all the time, and it doesn't work. Iraq is surrounded by enemies. Saddam is not a threat to the US. Has he attacked us? No. Was he our ally during the entire 1980's? Yes. Is there any link between Iraq and al-queda? No. Did the first inspection regulations destroy 95% of all WMD Iraq had? Yes.

There you have it. I do not support any war in Iraq. No good will come of it.

If you were around during WWII, would you have supported us sending troops to storm the beach at Normandy? It was a direct response to a different country attacking America (Pearl Harbor) and peace-nics of the day argued that nothing good would come of it.

-pheirce

In 1941 Japan and German were allies. Japan attacked the US, and they both declared war on the US. Iraq has never attacked the US. Yes, I supported US involvement in wwII. The 50 million people that died in ww2 might say that no good came of it.

I also believe that ww2 happened due the appeasing of dicators. In 1990, do think Saddam would have invaded Iraq if Bush Sr would have called him on the phone and said: If you invade Kuwait, we will crush you? Me neither. I wonder why he did nothing to stop the war. With that said- the "pre-emptive destruction" of dictator-controlled countries is a foolish, counterproductive and evil policy that only serves to increaase the suffering of the people under the dictators oppressions.

09-11-2001(and before): Al-queda attacked the US. I support the US destroying al-queda. I do not support the US destroying Iraq. Also, I support the US eliminating the conditions that promote terror organisations: extreme poverty, political oppression, denial of basic human rights, constant interference in other countries.

stuff like this makes me want to say, hey, you remember who we just faught the gulf war with? mi not saying destroy iraw, im just saying capture and control iraq untill it is a sound government as we have done with Japan.
Post edited by Trap¥ at 12/4/2002 11:17:56 AM

...............................
Trap¥
Teamwarfare Mechwarrior4 Mercenaries Ladder admin

HamNEggs was clear, you are not, Cimat.

HamNEggs translated for me, thank you.

I agree with you Cimat in the foreign policy thingy.

But on Iraq, no way, Hussein is no Diplomat, he is a thug, and thugs understand brass knuckles, bats and guns...big guns. And so is Arafat, a thug too. And Bin Laden is another thug.

We gotta put a 25-feet-rkt-powered enema up their asses ASAP...well, I dont care that much about Arafat. Israel should care more about Arafat.

---

T.C. (GRASSHOPPER-MAXIMUS) 1/20/03:
"The point to all this is simple guys. Do people cheat? Hell yes. Do as many people cheat as people think? Nah. Is the community as a whole overly paranoid...oh hell yeah. But by the same token the community has forgotten just how many bugs still exist in this game."

Originally posted by: cimat1984

If the US were attacked by Iraq- I would support a military response. The US has been attacked by Al-Queda, and I support the military helping to capture those responsible for 09-11. They deserve to rot in a cell and be someones jailhouse girlfriend for the rest of their lives.

Ok. Let's say someone is against ALL kinds of agression. They feel that if the US is attacked, we should simply lay down and take it instead of asking our military to take care of the problem.

Would that person be justified in calling you a chickenhawk because you are willing to sacrifice the lives of brave soldiers to save your skin/land/home?

-pheirce

Are we still talking about this?

What don't you understand?
I though for sure people like you bleeding heart tree huggers would understand aggression more than any of us.
I’m sure you have been pushed around a lot as a child/teen, perhaps even now?
Being a member of the debating team never seemed to factor in when dealing with the big dumb ass on the block, did it? He never cared you knew about the arts, science and even how to count over 13.
He was interested in one thing, your lunch money, jacket, shoes etc…
Not how well spoken you seemed to be, nor the fact that you saw no need in violence.
He knew you would run your mouth in an attempt to stop his assault; in fact he looked forward to your long-winded rationale speech, condemning his violent actions and Neanderthal like thinking, as his only thought was, which portion of your anatomy he would strike first!

You never understood why then, don’t try now!

I’ll be short, as long-winded speeches only drive you on.

Some are prone to violent behavior. This is all they know.
They are good at it and it has taken them far. (So they think)

You have not lived life I see, you have rose-colored glasses and they greatly distort you perspective ability of reality.

Reality is:
Some times shit happens and you can’t change it!
People have thought that you can't change!
But you had better learn to see it coming and be ready to counter it!

Step away from the tree, look around the world, and smell reality.
Or,
You could simply go tend the garden, let us who understand these types do what we do, and not criticize us when you still have your green garden to attend.



Post edited by WAR-M@c3 at 12/6/2002 8:02:48 PM

M@c3 CO of >WAR<
http://www.war-ofpr.com

I never will understand why people bring this to a GAMING forum. Someone please shoot him.

Guys, sheesh. I don't agree with cimat, I think sometimes we need to take the initiative, before they do. If a threat against us is obvious, and an attack is a matter of time, rather than 'if', we need to neutralize the threat. I think Hussein is a prime example. *I* think we should have given our UN allies the finger and gone through with getting him OUT of power when we had the chance. I think we would've heard a lot of bitching and moaning (esp. france and russia) early on, but when things actually got underway, they would have jumped on the wagon with us (they'd want to play a role in helping set up the new government of a big oil country, after all. No, it's not about oil, we're not that selfish, but we're not stupid either... but let's not get on that again).

But... you, warmace, are the one who doesn't seem to understand what cimat's been saying. He thinks we haven't exhausted all avenues of diplomacy. I think we have. When you hae a bully on the block, the first things you should try to get rid of him, or get him to stop being a bully, would be talking, or even avoidance. When all else fails, of course, you plunge your forehead into his nose. Then he'll go away. Sidenote: bleedin' hippies got the best music (with the exception of Ted Nugent).

Look, why dont we all go out to the pub for a booze? Oh, but depending on what bar we go to, someone else might have ot buy for me (I'm only 20 ).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/02/uk_human_rights_dossier_on_iraq/pdf/iraq_human_rights.pdf

enjoy the reading

---

T.C. (GRASSHOPPER-MAXIMUS) 1/20/03:
"The point to all this is simple guys. Do people cheat? Hell yes. Do as many people cheat as people think? Nah. Is the community as a whole overly paranoid...oh hell yeah. But by the same token the community has forgotten just how many bugs still exist in this game."

Originally posted by: pheirce

Originally posted by: cimat1984

If the US were attacked by Iraq- I would support a military response. The US has been attacked by Al-Queda, and I support the military helping to capture those responsible for 09-11. They deserve to rot in a cell and be someones jailhouse girlfriend for the rest of their lives.

Ok. Let's say someone is against ALL kinds of agression. They feel that if the US is attacked, we should simply lay down and take it instead of asking our military to take care of the problem.

Would that person be justified in calling you a chickenhawk because you are willing to sacrifice the lives of brave soldiers to save your skin/land/home?

-pheirce

No, they would not be justified in calling me a chickenhawk. Chicken hawks go looking for wars to spill soldiers blood in. Defending the country is just that, defending yourself against an attack. You didn't go looking for war, it came looking for you. In my opinion, Bush/Cheney are desperate to make an excuse to go to war against Iraq, because they can't find Bin Laden, and because they want to distract us from problems at home.


"Raving Liberal Lunatic"
Go Green! http://www.greenpartyus.org

Originally posted by: WAR-M@c3

Are we still talking about this?

What don't you understand?
I though for sure people like you bleeding heart tree huggers would understand aggression more than any of us.
I’m sure you have been pushed around a lot as a child/teen, perhaps even now?
Being a member of the debating team never seemed to factor in when dealing with the big dumb ass on the block, did it? He never cared you knew about the arts, science and even how to count over 13.
He was interested in one thing, your lunch money, jacket, shoes etc…
Not how well spoken you seemed to be, nor the fact that you saw no need in violence.
He knew you would run your mouth in an attempt to stop his assault; in fact he looked forward to your long-winded rationale speech, condemning his violent actions and Neanderthal like thinking, as his only thought was, which portion of your anatomy he would strike first!

You never understood why then, don’t try now!

I’ll be short, as long-winded speeches only drive you on.

Some are prone to violent behavior. This is all they know.
They are good at it and it has taken them far. (So they think)

You have not lived life I see, you have rose-colored glasses and they greatly distort you perspective ability of reality.

Reality is:
Some times shit happens and you can’t change it!
People have thought that you can't change!
But you had better learn to see it coming and be ready to counter it!

Step away from the tree, look around the world, and smell reality.
Or,
You could simply go tend the garden, let us who understand these types do what we do, and not criticize us when you still have your green garden to attend.

I will not give up my right to criticize. Who are you to limit free speech? If you don't like my ideas, don't read the posts. If you find me hypocritical, too bad, I'm not the pillar of all anti-war wisdom. I'm not the pillar of perfect logic and intelligence. But, I will not stop speaking out when I see something wrong happening in my country. I am an American, and my country is my home, and I will defend that from all threats within and without. Frankly, I see more threats to this country from the current administration, than I do from Hussein and his 6 leftover scuds that would blow up on the lauch pad. Oh yeah, he doesn't have any launch pads.


Post edited by cimat1984 at 12/6/2002 10:06:42 PM

"Raving Liberal Lunatic"
Go Green! http://www.greenpartyus.org

Originally posted by: WAR-M@c3

Are we still talking about this?

What don't you understand?
I though for sure people like you bleeding heart tree huggers would understand aggression more than any of us.
I’m sure you have been pushed around a lot as a child/teen, perhaps even now?
Being a member of the debating team never seemed to factor in when dealing with the big dumb ass on the block, did it? He never cared you knew about the arts, science and even how to count over 13.
He was interested in one thing, your lunch money, jacket, shoes etc…
Not how well spoken you seemed to be, nor the fact that you saw no need in violence.
He knew you would run your mouth in an attempt to stop his assault; in fact he looked forward to your long-winded rationale speech, condemning his violent actions and Neanderthal like thinking, as his only thought was, which portion of your anatomy he would strike first!

You never understood why then, don’t try now!

I’ll be short, as long-winded speeches only drive you on.

Some are prone to violent behavior. This is all they know.
They are good at it and it has taken them far. (So they think)

You have not lived life I see, you have rose-colored glasses and they greatly distort you perspective ability of reality.

Reality is:
Some times shit happens and you can’t change it!
People have thought that you can't change!
But you had better learn to see it coming and be ready to counter it!

Step away from the tree, look around the world, and smell reality.
Or,
You could simply go tend the garden, let us who understand these types do what we do, and not criticize us when you still have your green garden to attend.

I've never been bullied, or had my lunch money taken from me. Nor do I look at the world through rose colored glasses. If you are wanting a war in Iraq, go fight there yourself, but leave the soldiers out of it. They deserve better than a made up, phony excuse war for oil.

It's not about oil! you will cry out! But, then, what is it about? Saddam's WMD? we don't know what he has- the inspectors have only been there a week.

True story from my life in junior high: While standing in line to exit the locker room, the local tough kid walks up to me, and asks "Wanna fight?" and I answer "No." He looks a little confused, calls me a pussy to save face in front of the other kids and walks away. I won, and didn't even have to raise a fist.

To date, I have never been in fist fight, and I am 30 years old. I win again.


"Raving Liberal Lunatic"
Go Green! http://www.greenpartyus.org

Originally posted by: HamNEggs

Guys, sheesh. I don't agree with cimat, I think sometimes we need to take the initiative, before they do. If a threat against us is obvious, and an attack is a matter of time, rather than 'if', we need to neutralize the threat. I think Hussein is a prime example. *I* think we should have given our UN allies the finger and gone through with getting him OUT of power when we had the chance. I think we would've heard a lot of bitching and moaning (esp. france and russia) early on, but when things actually got underway, they would have jumped on the wagon with us (they'd want to play a role in helping set up the new government of a big oil country, after all. No, it's not about oil, we're not that selfish, but we're not stupid either... but let's not get on that again).

But... you, warmace, are the one who doesn't seem to understand what cimat's been saying. He thinks we haven't exhausted all avenues of diplomacy. I think we have. When you hae a bully on the block, the first things you should try to get rid of him, or get him to stop being a bully, would be talking, or even avoidance. When all else fails, of course, you plunge your forehead into his nose. Then he'll go away. Sidenote: bleedin' hippies got the best music (with the exception of Ted Nugent).

Look, why dont we all go out to the pub for a booze? Oh, but depending on what bar we go to, someone else might have ot buy for me (I'm only 20 ).

Amen- booze rules! I'd buy for ya. Your old enough to serve in the army=your old enough to drink.


"Raving Liberal Lunatic"
Go Green! http://www.greenpartyus.org

Well green boy, not to be an ass, and you do seem like a man with a brain.
So all I ask is you let go of your tree for a min. (she will be their when your done)

You miss the big picture in the entire world scheme of things, in my opinion.

RE the lunch money comment I made.
So then you do know when to fight for yourself or you just have never been in that situation?

Again, I do understand Mr. Egg’s,
It’s those whom have never physically fought for what they believe in that miss the big picture here!
I would love this to have a storybook ending, but in reality the only such endings are only found in said books.

cimat1984:
Brother,
I would love to server in this great nations ARMY, I would love to server her with the greatest honor one can.
Put my as on the line so YOU, could plant any damn tree you wanted, any time you wished to do so!

I think you forget what gave you the right to speak your mind sir!
I think you are forgetting what the red stripes in our flag stand for!

Men/Women join our military knowing the chance exists, that one day they may be called on to fight for the freedoms they cherish so.
The military is not a Colleague fund for the poor sir.
Many a great men and women have served this country in uniform, I cannot!
I will not dwell on the reasons, why this will never come to be as its beside the point!

We as an open nation of free people have many faults, and I feel we as God loving Americans are fast becoming a minority???

(Well so much for the long windedness)

I don’t dislike you sir just because you don’t agree with me, but others would kill you for this!
I don’t tell you what you can or cannot do, but others would.
I will not kill your friends and neighbors, innocent as they may be in the name of my cause, but others willingly would!

Lets set the record straight right now sir.
You are allowed your opinion and your right to openly express them, on the backs and on the blood of countless Americans whom have given of their self so that you may openly practice your belief!

You have the right to remain silent, but you also have the right to speak your mind with minor ramifications!
This right was given you threw blood!
So save your speech.
The ones who seek your demise care not of your thoughts and your thoughts are what they are looking to eradicate!

We are Americans, for the most part and we may have our issues, but good God man, where do you think the world would be without our interventions? In a better place, please!

We all have the right to speak out and disagree; we have little fear of reprisals afterwards.

Tell me this, have you ever placed your life on the line so that another may have his God rights?

I have looked at all the street signs, it seems they all point to WAR Ave.

Please man,
offer us all, in this forum your solution if, Aggression is not an option?

Have you never killed a bee’s nest around your home for the simple reason they may sting you given the chance?

This WAR will come and I hope you and others like you will not take to the streets in protest.

Hope this all makes sense, as I have already hit the pub and its getting hard 2 stay conscious! J



M@c3 CO of >WAR<
http://www.war-ofpr.com

ok, giving up nuke-the-country thing, instead, lets just capture sadaam and interrogate him. havent even interrogated him eh?
...............................
Trap¥
Teamwarfare Mechwarrior4 Mercenaries Ladder admin

1) "10 free well-fed goats, for the first man to bring in Saddam!"
2) "Lookie here, Mr. Hussein, you have something on your forehead. Lemme GET IT OFF WITH a @$#^ing BASE BALL BAT for ya!"
3) "In recent news, former dictator of Iraq, Saddam Hussein, has just died of natural causes while on a friendly visit to America."

LMFAO
...............................
Trap¥
Teamwarfare Mechwarrior4 Mercenaries Ladder admin

Actaully, I have much more respect for those with the courage to stand against those people who once called themselves friends and family and choose to openly disagree with them being armed only with what they see as the right way.

Those people on the streets with their signs, and those people in the City Halls and those people facing total and complete rejection from a war-loving nation as they fight (yes, fight) for a more peaceful solution are the real courageous ones in my eyes. People like cimat are on a daily basis called unpatriotic, told to love it or leave it, and the like, when in reality I have no hesitation in saying that they love it far more than people who go with the flow, such as yourself.

cimat has no gun, but he's fighting harder than many of the good ol' boys stationed in the Middle East right now. There are far worse things than physical death, and if you think otherwise a reevaluation of your life is necessary.

And about what gave him the right to speak his mind? Yes, our armed forces protected it, but it was people like him over two hundred years ago who had the courage to stand up and give England the finger and promise to make this land a better place for all humans.

I didn't want to get into anymore of these, but you're way out of line WARmace. The "tree-hugging" quips (which I assume are meant to be derogatory) are also completely unnecessary. If not for people like cimat then you could expect this wonderful nation to consume itself into extinction at many times the rate it is right now. So instead of telling him to look around, perhaps it would be best if you got off your high-horse and did the same.

Your arguement seems to follow the same line as so many others: You have the right to speak your mind and fight for what you believe is right, even if it goes agaisnt the current administration, but since this government allows you to do so, you should thank them for it and shut your damn mouth.

Right.

And I'm not sure what you were trying to say when you said, "I feel we as God loving Americans are fast becoming a minority." But if you are trying to say that those people who do not subscribe to the Christian beliefs are immoral or full of shit, you don't need to speak any further. It's pretty clear where you're coming from and room for discussion is nil.

You seem to forget that if this were a county of only an army, we would be exactly like the countries you now think we should bomb the fuck out of. AGAIN people like cimat were the ones who argued and thought and wrote and fought with each other to even come up such ideas as freedom of speech. Very few of the philosphical figures who said such ideas were admirable in their day were anything but rewarded for their efforts.

cimat has been much more tame on the Armed Forces than I am - I mean hell - he's pro-soldier for christ's sake! He is open about his respect for them and acknowledges the role they've played in our history. It is *you* who is being short-sighted in your rejection of people who oppose the current system in favor of a better one.

As soon as everyone is content that this nation is fine the way it is, our entire system collapses.

___

Got ?

Originally posted by: Deception

In the words of ShinShunMangetsu... This Place needs more .. Now Drop your drawers!

Originally posted by: cimat1984

Originally posted by: pheirce

Originally posted by: cimat1984

If the US were attacked by Iraq- I would support a military response. The US has been attacked by Al-Queda, and I support the military helping to capture those responsible for 09-11. They deserve to rot in a cell and be someones jailhouse girlfriend for the rest of their lives.

Ok. Let's say someone is against ALL kinds of agression. They feel that if the US is attacked, we should simply lay down and take it instead of asking our military to take care of the problem.

Would that person be justified in calling you a chickenhawk because you are willing to sacrifice the lives of brave soldiers to save your skin/land/home?

-pheirce

No, they would not be justified in calling me a chickenhawk. Chicken hawks go looking for wars to spill soldiers blood in. Defending the country is just that, defending yourself against an attack. You didn't go looking for war, it came looking for you. In my opinion, Bush/Cheney are desperate to make an excuse to go to war against Iraq, because they can't find Bin Laden, and because they want to distract us from problems at home.

IMO, Ralph Nader is a parasite who feeds on human misery. His complete lack of leadership ability and his incessant disregard of logic and reason dictate that he should never be a leader in any way shape or form. He recognizes his serious flaws, so he does the only thing he can to gain power. He relishes human misery so he can have a platform to gain gullible followers.

His need for human misery is a strong motivation for him not to solve any of societies social ills. In fact, he is best served to make these social ills worse. His plan is beautifully architected and would make Machiavelli proud. He drumbeats the mantra that "I care for you" and "I feel your pain" while pushing agendas that actually increase human suffering and misery. His plan is brilliant in that it gets gullible people to think that he actually cares, while exacerbating the social problems that he so needs to maintain power.

-pheirce

Originally posted by: cimat1984

True story from my life in junior high: While standing in line to exit the locker room, the local tough kid walks up to me, and asks "Wanna fight?" and I answer "No." He looks a little confused, calls me a pussy to save face in front of the other kids and walks away. I won, and didn't even have to raise a fist.

About the "wanna fight". It sure would have been nice if Al queda had asked "You mind if we knock down the world Trade Center?" or if Husein had asked Kuwait "You mind if we annex you?" or if Hussein simply asked us "You mind if we build and use Weapons of Mass Destruction?".

I could also share you many experiences that I've had where I was able to talk people down who wanted to beat me down.

As well, I can tell you of several times that I've had to throw down with agressors. I never, not once, instigated the agression (it's not in my nature). Some times I had to throw down in defense of myself, others times in the defense of others.

You may ask yourself "Why would people want to beat down pheirce so much if he didn't instigate it?", I asked myself this question many, many, many times. The most common thread about all the incidents I've had (for defense of myself) is that I happened to be the biggest/strongest guy in the room at the time. I'd be at a party and a drunk cowboy (I grew up in Texas) would decide they want to fight and launch into me because I looked to be the toughest. Often times they'd start with a sucker punch.

Now, I'm sure there are some people who felt I did instigate it because I took the time to lift weights and bulk up for football. Others might have felt it was my fault because I was one of the popular kids and I, therefore, must have been arogant. Still others might have claimed that I had no business being at a party that was in the territory of a cross-town rival.

I think you would agree that these notions are just silly and my point is, sometimes it simply can't be avoided.

Let me give you the most recent example of me having to step up which happened when I was 30 (I'm 33 now):

I was at my in-laws. We were about to leave so I go warm the car up for the family. As I'm sitting in the car, these three guys came by. One had a baseball bat, the other two were advancing on him (we'll call them A and B). The guy with the baseball bat (we'll call him Z) screams at me "go call the cops, this guy beat up my sister".

I step out of the car and tell all of them "guys, knock it off, I'm about to call the cops on all of you".

The two agressors back off and start to leave. The guy with the bat sees his opportunity and lunges at them with the bat swinging.

The two guys then turn around and swarm him. One of them grabs the bat and the two (A and Z) start struggling on the ground. At this point I had run up and was still just watching. The other guy (B) tries to get into the fight, but I held him off. I was hoping two guys struggling for the bat would just tire out. The guy I'm holding back pretends to be appeased and when I stop holding him he breaks away and places a hard kick on Z's face which explodes in a splash of blood. Z lets go of the bat and A now lifs it up to beat on him.

Now I ask you, what should I have done next? I suppose I could have been the pacifist and politely asked the guy to drop the bat and leave the bloody guy alone, but, again, it's not in my nature.

Instead, I decided that I needed to get that bat because it was the most dangerous weapon in the altercation and if I didn't get it, someone was going to die. I launched full force into the melee and fought the bat away from the guy who had it. I then threatened to use the bat if they didn't knock it off. There was no more fighting that night (although A and B both spent the night in jail).

Now, my involvement was not without consequence to me. The common opinion amongst the combatants was that I had no business getting involved in a family matter (A and B were brothers and B was married to Zs sister who he had beat up earlier). I even received some veiled threats about my forthcoming testimony in court.

My mom told me I was crazy: "You could have been shot". But again, I ask, what should I have done? Should I have just sat idly by and let these two guys kill the other, secure in my virtue because I was not involved in another fight?

Again, I think you get the point and maybe my experiences of having to fight with agressors and your luck of never having to deal with one is a big reason as to why we disagree on this whole issue.

-pheirce
Post edited by pheirce at 12/7/2002 7:18:08 PM

Originally posted by: ShinShun

cimat has no gun, but he's fighting harder than many of the good ol' boys stationed in the Middle East right now.

Um. Much respect to cimat, but I've got to say "NO" to this comment.

I happen to also be pro-soldier, but it goes much deeper than that. These men and women who risk their life for our country are nothing short of heros, and I mean that.

You once took offense at a statement I made and I never apologized for it (I just dropped it). Let me revisit that to make my point.

You expressed that you would run to Canada if America ever instituted a draft and you extolled your virtue for "having the courage of your convictions".

I told you "If you really had the courage of your convictions and a love for this country, you would become a martry for your cause and go sit in a jail cell for refusing to serve. Running to a different country so you could safely play video games while your former compatriots are dieing in the field of battle, shows neither courage or conviction."

You objected to my characterization and I just let it drop.

Well, let me ask you now, what can I replace "safely play videogames" with to make it much more agreeable to you? Would "safely earn money" be less objectionable? How about "safely screw your girlfriend"? Maybe "safely protest", "safely watch tv", "safely spend time with your family"? In short "safely live your life"?

I fail to see how it takes much courage for someone to run away from personal harm and run toward a subculture of friends and (possibly new) family that will patt them on the back and tell them how good they are for their "courage" in running away.

-pheirce

If you are too forgetful to remember, I agreed with you about sitting in federal prison and said that would be a much more couragous way to go. But yes, forgetting I said that makes it much easier to attack me.