Patriotism and Dissent.........

cimat1984

But it's organic poop!TeamWarfare VetTWL Contributor

2002-10-16 18:25

Your friendly neighborhood Green Party member here.

Some on the message board react angrily when I state that I do not support a war with Iraq. I try to make a compelling argument to support my statement.

If you agree with me, that's dandy. If not, that's ok too.

However, please do not accuse me of hating my country, or being unpatriotic. I love America, but America is not our goverment. America is the people, its citizens. I disagree, strongly, with what our goverment is doing.

When Bush says you're either with us or against us, he is trying (in my opinion) to stifle domestic dissent, as much as intimidate other countries. I will not be silenced when I see our government doing something that will ultimately hurt America.

So, friends, dissent is not unpatriotic. The public has a civic duty to raise its voice when it sees that the goverment is not doing the right thing.

Peace! No blood for oil. Ever.

Post edited by cimat1984 at 10/16/2002 6:27:18 PM

My non-political signature goes here

-Nautica-

Drake

2002-10-16 19:11

You claimed that the United States was going to kill thousands of people, and spend 80+ billion dollars - to get about 35 billion dollars worth of oil.

You claimed that the United States, through George Bush, was telling lies to the American population using propaganda. You claimed that the goverment had brainwashed us into beleiving that Iraq was a victim, and not a threat.

-Naut

Sly Duck

I'm a Quack

2002-10-16 19:31

You're a member of a party that would most likely gladly take away several of my rights in the name of environmental conservatism. Go ahead and keep your political views, but the day the Green party gets into a major position of power is the day I'm moving to Japan.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't listen to this guy. He just rambles on about random things and calls himself a philosopher because of it.

pheirce

Tin Foil HatTWL Contributor

2002-10-16 19:56

Originally posted by: Sly Duck

Go ahead and keep your political views, but the day the Green party gets into a major position of power is the day I'm moving to Japan.

Wait. Wouldn't that make you unpatriotic? The day the Green Party gets into power is the day I go into full scale polical activism to get them out of power.

-pheirce

ShinShun

TeamWarfare VetTWL Contributor

2002-10-16 20:02

Nicely put, cimat my good man. I'm right there with you.

Sly Duck

I'm a Quack

2002-10-16 21:15

America is going down the tubes fast. The system is so corrupt RIGHT NOW, that it would take an almost complete overhaul of it to get it right. Besides, "...and I'll move to Japan" is something I say to a bunch of political bs.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't listen to this guy. He just rambles on about random things and calls himself a philosopher because of it.

Respice

Teamwarfare VetTWL Contributor

2002-10-16 21:26

in regards to Iraq I think the ends justify the means. Regardless of what you believe the reasons may be, several things can be accomplished by the removal of Saddam from power.

1. Release the citizens of Iraq from his tyranny.

2. Eliminate the threat of them becoming a nuclear power.

3. Eliminate their other WOMD capabilities.

4. Eliminate a possible hotbed for terrorist organizations and other Anti-Western sentiment.

5. Restore some stability to that portion of the mid-east.

6. Reduce the number of troops we have in Mid-East.

Even if Bush's sole reason for erradicating Saddam and his posse of thugs was personal (or Oil) yet managed to accomplish some if not all of those things it's justifiable in my opinion. Those are all very attainable goals and the world would be better off without Saddam.

-Nautica-

Drake

2002-10-16 21:38

Yup.

DoMiNuS

Zombee's Love SlaveTeamWarfare VetTWL Contributor

2002-10-16 23:22

Cimat1984 loves this Coutry. Just because his viewpoints are those of a small minority does not mean he is not concerned about the issues everyone else is. He's one of the most active participants in such discussions here (why we have them here is beyond me but whatever )...which that alone should show that while he may not be your local democrat or republican neighbor... he's still an american citizen with a right to have a different point of view.

As a diehard republican & military vet, I acknowledge that and would hope others do too. The people like cimat in Iraq get killed for their dissent. So if we were to ever stoop to their level and smash people down who hold different viewpoints... we'd be no better than iraq is.

This deal in Iraq, folks... is about saving the people of Iraq AND removing any and all weapons of mass destruction. So people like Cimat there can have a voice without saying Yes or No to a one person ballot knowing full and well you're family members would be raped and tortured if you had any hint of dissent.

Respice

Teamwarfare VetTWL Contributor

2002-10-17 01:00

Originally posted by: DoMiNuS

Cimat1984 loves this Coutry. Just because his viewpoints are those of a small minority does not mean he is not concerned about the issues everyone else is. He's one of the most active participants in such discussions here (why we have them here is beyond me but whatever )...which that alone should show that while he may not be your local democrat or republican neighbor... he's still an american citizen with a right to have a different point of view.

As a diehard republican & military vet, I acknowledge that and would hope others do too. The people like cimat in Iraq get killed for their dissent. So if we were to ever stoop to their level and smash people down who hold different viewpoints... we'd be no better than iraq is.

This deal in Iraq, folks... is about saving the people of Iraq AND removing any and all weapons of mass destruction. So people like Cimat there can have a voice without saying Yes or No to a one person ballot knowing full and well you're family members would be raped and tortured if you had any hint of dissent.

Nobody in this thread is questioning cimat's patriotism nor damming him for holding a unique opinion. If you are just reaffirming what he said than ok.

cimat1984

But it's organic poop!TeamWarfare VetTWL Contributor

2002-10-17 07:03

Originally posted by: -Nautica-

You claimed that the United States was going to kill thousands of people, and spend 80+ billion dollars - to get about 35 billion dollars worth of oil.

You claimed that the United States, through George Bush, was telling lies to the American population using propaganda. You claimed that the goverment had brainwashed us into beleiving that Iraq was a victim, and not a threat.

-Naut

All correct except I think the goverment is trying to make Iraq seem like much more of a threat than it really is.

cimat1984

But it's organic poop!TeamWarfare VetTWL Contributor

2002-10-17 07:04

Originally posted by: -Nautica-

You claimed that the United States was going to kill thousands of people, and spend 80+ billion dollars - to get about 35 billion dollars worth of oil.
***Great point- why go to war if the cost will exceed the reward of getting control of the oil? Except, I think Iraq's oil reserves are worth far more. Where do you get $35billion from?

You claimed that the United States, through George Bush, was telling lies to the American population using propaganda. You claimed that the goverment had brainwashed us into beleiving that Iraq was a victim, and not a threat.

-Naut

cimat1984

But it's organic poop!TeamWarfare VetTWL Contributor

2002-10-17 07:06

Originally posted by: DoMiNuS

Cimat1984 loves this Coutry. Just because his viewpoints are those of a small minority does not mean he is not concerned about the issues everyone else is. He's one of the most active participants in such discussions here (why we have them here is beyond me but whatever )...which that alone should show that while he may not be your local democrat or republican neighbor... he's still an american citizen with a right to have a different point of view.

As a diehard republican & military vet, I acknowledge that and would hope others do too. The people like cimat in Iraq get killed for their dissent. So if we were to ever stoop to their level and smash people down who hold different viewpoints... we'd be no better than iraq is.

This deal in Iraq, folks... is about saving the people of Iraq AND removing any and all weapons of mass destruction. So people like Cimat there can have a voice without saying Yes or No to a one person ballot knowing full and well you're family members would be raped and tortured if you had any hint of dissent.

Thanks Dom- you da man! (cimat puts Dom first on his "give huggies to a conservative" list)

Post edited by cimat1984 at 10/17/2002 7:12:22 AM

My non-political signature goes here

cimat1984

But it's organic poop!TeamWarfare VetTWL Contributor

2002-10-17 07:11

Originally posted by: Sly Duck

You're a member of a party that would most likely gladly take away several of my rights in the name of environmental conservatism. Go ahead and keep your political views, but the day the Green party gets into a major position of power is the day I'm moving to Japan.

Sly- last time I checked, America is a democracy. So, in order for the Greens to have a majority in congress, they would have to win elections all accross the country. That means, people would have to vote them in. So, if that ever happens, that means they got a majority of the votes.

By the way- what rights, exactly, do you think the greens will take away? The right to breathe polluted air- yep, we will take that away. The right to get screwed over by corporations-that's gone too. The right not to be able to join a union- history! The right to drink poison water from your kitchen tap- that is gone as well. The right not to have affordable heatlh care- we're taking that right away. The right to be discrimated against- again, the iron fist of the green party will smash that right.

But you are probably referring to the beloved 2nd amendment, the right to bear arms. Well guess what? American laws and courts have deemed it legal to own guns. Whooopee!!!!!!! The Greens cannot change that. If the people support gun ownership restrictions, then the congress can try to pass them (Brady Bill), but it still has to be consistent with the constitution.

My non-political signature goes here

DoMiNuS

Zombee's Love SlaveTeamWarfare VetTWL Contributor

2002-10-17 18:29

Originally posted by: Respice

Originally posted by: DoMiNuS

Cimat1984 loves this Coutry. Just because his viewpoints are those of a small minority does not mean he is not concerned about the issues everyone else is. He's one of the most active participants in such discussions here (why we have them here is beyond me but whatever )...which that alone should show that while he may not be your local democrat or republican neighbor... he's still an american citizen with a right to have a different point of view.

As a diehard republican & military vet, I acknowledge that and would hope others do too. The people like cimat in Iraq get killed for their dissent. So if we were to ever stoop to their level and smash people down who hold different viewpoints... we'd be no better than iraq is.

This deal in Iraq, folks... is about saving the people of Iraq AND removing any and all weapons of mass destruction. So people like Cimat there can have a voice without saying Yes or No to a one person ballot knowing full and well you're family members would be raped and tortured if you had any hint of dissent.

Nobody in this thread is questioning cimat's patriotism nor damming him for holding a unique opinion. If you are just reaffirming what he said than ok.

bingo, i was reaffirming what he said, yes

ShinShun

TeamWarfare VetTWL Contributor

2002-10-17 18:32

Because Dom is just that kick ass kinda guy and people like cimat have repeatedly had thier patrotism questioned in other threads.

cimat1984

But it's organic poop!TeamWarfare VetTWL Contributor

2002-10-17 22:08

cimat is proud to be an american.
cimat wants to make his country even better.
cimat wants to give huggies to all those who do not agree with him

My non-political signature goes here

pheirce

Tin Foil HatTWL Contributor

2002-10-18 01:57

On second thought, can we just like high five or sumthin'? Maybe a slap on the back?

...HUGGIES just sounds too cute...

...and i'm not cute...

-pheirce
---
"We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good" --Hillary MarxClinton
"the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God." -- John F. Kennedy
"I think it was the right decision to disarm Saddam Hussein, and when the President made the decision, I supported him, and I support the fact that we did disarm him." -- John Kerry, Democratic Primary Debate, 5/03/03

mikebo2

TeamWarfare Vet

2002-10-18 08:20

Cimat,

Just a question? I do NOT question your patriatism. Different opinions is what America is all about.

At what point would you think America should declare war on another Nation?

Mikebo

ShinShun

TeamWarfare VetTWL Contributor

2002-10-18 09:39

Now don't say that, pheirce, you are *very* cute. I find it hard at times to keep myself from goosing you you're so cute.

pheirce

Tin Foil HatTWL Contributor

2002-10-18 10:57

Originally posted by: ShinShun

Now don't say that, pheirce, you are *very* cute. I find it hard at times to keep myself from goosing you you're so cute.

Well, cimat DID once call me a "bloodthirsty fucker" which, if true, is decidedly non-cute.

Balanced with the HUGGIES, I think that puts my cuteness factor at about zero

-pheirce
---
"We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good" --Hillary MarxClinton
"the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God." -- John F. Kennedy
"I think it was the right decision to disarm Saddam Hussein, and when the President made the decision, I supported him, and I support the fact that we did disarm him." -- John Kerry, Democratic Primary Debate, 5/03/03

HamNEggs

TeamWarfare Vet

2002-10-18 15:00

The first patriots in the U.S. were themselves dissenters...

There'd be no need for a democracy if everyone agreed. And, as evidence of all the disagreement, there is obviously no clear-cut answer to these problems we face. Most people (including me) think their viewpoints are so blatantly obvious that everyone should agree.

And because so many people care aobut their country, and think this, debates turn into arguments, and things get heated.

cimat, you silly silly patriotic guy you (I stopped wearing diapers a LONG time ago though... like whole months or something)

TwistedLefty

Titular RectorTeamWarfare Vet

2002-10-19 23:26

there's no way to tell but it's just a hunch that the majority of you have never voted.

cimat1984

But it's organic poop!TeamWarfare VetTWL Contributor

2002-10-22 09:51

I voted for Nader in 2000, and will vote for him again if he runs!

My non-political signature goes here

cimat1984

But it's organic poop!TeamWarfare VetTWL Contributor

2002-10-22 13:48

The Green Party generally supports the decriminalization of marijuana. As for your 2nd question, um........(runs for the door).

My non-political signature goes here

cimat1984

But it's organic poop!TeamWarfare VetTWL Contributor

2002-10-22 13:49

Originally posted by: pheirce

Originally posted by: ShinShun

Now don't say that, pheirce, you are *very* cute. I find it hard at times to keep myself from goosing you you're so cute.

Well, cimat DID once call me a "bloodthirsty fucker" which, if true, is decidedly non-cute.

Balanced with the HUGGIES, I think that puts my cuteness factor at about zero

-pheirce

Sorry about that comment- I was cranky that day.

My non-political signature goes here

cimat1984

But it's organic poop!TeamWarfare VetTWL Contributor

2002-10-22 13:54

Originally posted by: mikebo2

Cimat,

Just a question? I do NOT question your patriatism. Different opinions is what America is all about.

At what point would you think America should declare war on another Nation?

Mikebo

That's a tough question- but a good one. War and conflict can happen in many different ways. Generally- (if I were president) I would only make/declare/request a declartion of war if our country were directly attacked.

My non-political signature goes here

ThrillKillKulT

TWL MemberTWL Contributor

2002-10-22 22:59

One correction. When Bush said you are either with us or against us, he was addressing other countries, not the American Citizens. Too Often, we the USA pull the lions share of global responsibility, which always leads to citizens of other countries (and ours) bad mouthing us.

Basically, We need to take out the Regimes one at a time, slowly gathering support till nothing but Democracy stands. This war is not about Oil, it is not about religion. It is about enough is enough and Saddam has ignored The resolutions too long and committed too many crimes against humanity for us to ignore him anymore. We will not stop at Iraq either, mark my words. this has to be done by the USA someday, you know this is true. the longer we wait, the harder it will be.

I do not want war, I do not want to see innocent Iraqi women and children killed. But I know that what is in IRAQ's future generations best interest is that we take down the regimes in IRAQ and replace them with monitored democracy. If we don't plan to put a democray in Iraq, then i would also be against it. If we plan on finnishing what we start, i 100% support it.

Regimes is the problem in the middleeast.

Post edited by ThrillKillKulT at 10/22/2002 11:00:33 PM

28 posts recovered