From DruMAX:
"I would think its not 'cheating' to play a guy not on your roster as long as the other team says its okay and you dont sneak them in or they arent banned player"
Yes, I think you are exactly correct Dru... we have asked permission to play subs in matches and have been granted same on occasion [though on some occasions permission was denied and we had to llama or play 2 men down - cruel perhaps, but fair enough I reckon, certainly within the rights of the opposing captains to require us to restrict ourselves to teaming players who were on our roster thats how I read the rules anyway].
OTOH, I think that teaming a player that is technically ineligible needs to be taken in context with the portion of the rules that require captains to validate the roster of the opposing team at the start of a match [just as they must validate the server at the start] - and the fact that the rules imply that once a roster is accepted [as evidenced by playing the match] that acceptance cannot be taken back... in other words inspect and object to the roster before the match, or forever hold your peace.
That part I get... what I don't get is repeated references to the idea that smurfing is something "everyone" does and that while it is technically against the rules, it is in actuality OK as long as you dont smurf a "known" cheater. That line of reasoning strikes me as circular and self contradictory [not at all grey unless grey means all fucked up]. How can you validate a smurf given that by definition it is a guy playing under a false name [which in itself is cheating<>?
While I would grant you that there should be gradations of punishment for the severity of the crime, I get lost on the idea that some crimes taint crimes at all but rather are something everyone does if that be the case, would someone please tell me which of the rules are not real then I can stop being an asshat by expecting other people to observe them.
From Biscuit:
I wonder how you get by every day if you live in such a black and white world. Don't come to me about the letter of the law, you don't know the FIRST thing about it.
Actually, that is not correct. The fact is I know a bit about law, but I fail to see how that is germane.
I am making a serious inquiry to the TWL base community with regard to a widely held understanding with regard to player eligibility that is in direct conflict with the written rules. You obviously have decided that the questions I have raised are all about you they aint . so please take a deep breath, and lighten up on the name calling.
In YOUR case, a player was teamed and it was pointed out he was in-elligible, and he dropped, LESS THAN A MINUTE LATER, he never even spawned. At the point in the match, there was no score, grabs were even, and frankly, your team was doing fine. INSTEAD OF REALIZING THEY DROPPED THE PLAYER AND CONTINUING TO PLAY, you wah'd your way to the admins.
I assume you are referring to the C23 match that was recently killed if so, you need to review the facts the player in question was teamed, had earned a positive score prior to leaving the server, and was only removed after repeated objection by us that he was not on the C23 roster a roster which both team captains had gone over immediately prior to the start of the match but we digress.
Play the game, PLAY THE GAME....meaning, get on the server, initiate the match, and PLAY THE GAME. If there are serious infractions, there is help to be found.
Aaaahhhh thank your that we arrive at my question.
I want to know if you can tell me which of the rules are serious and which ones are not?
I really want to know. The rules instruct captains to validate the opposing roster prior to play, and state that objecting to same later is disallowed, and that teaming an in-eligible player after the match starts will result in an automatic forfeit. The rules also state that smurfing is not allowed.
But based on many recent comments made in these forums [including yours] it is becoming obvious to me that these aint really the rules. If objecting to the roster used in match after the fact is disallowed, then If there are serious infractions, there is help to be found makes no sense nor does the idea that smurfing is OK unless the smurf is a known cheater.. unless some infractions matter, and some dont and all Im asking is that someone tell me which ones dont matter.
I see no need for the question of what an eligible player to be so dodgy and I dont see how a big grey area as to player eligibility can work if playing the match equals tacit acceptance of the opposing roster.
I apologize in advance for the fact that you take these questions personally I never intended for you too. I am merely trying to get some feedback on issues that IMO do not make sense, and I would very much appreciate it if the leaders in this community would address them... if that upsets you, please do not feel the need to reply.
Thanks
Foz
"I would think its not 'cheating' to play a guy not on your roster as long as the other team says its okay and you dont sneak them in or they arent banned player"
Yes, I think you are exactly correct Dru... we have asked permission to play subs in matches and have been granted same on occasion [though on some occasions permission was denied and we had to llama or play 2 men down - cruel perhaps, but fair enough I reckon, certainly within the rights of the opposing captains to require us to restrict ourselves to teaming players who were on our roster thats how I read the rules anyway].
OTOH, I think that teaming a player that is technically ineligible needs to be taken in context with the portion of the rules that require captains to validate the roster of the opposing team at the start of a match [just as they must validate the server at the start] - and the fact that the rules imply that once a roster is accepted [as evidenced by playing the match] that acceptance cannot be taken back... in other words inspect and object to the roster before the match, or forever hold your peace.
That part I get... what I don't get is repeated references to the idea that smurfing is something "everyone" does and that while it is technically against the rules, it is in actuality OK as long as you dont smurf a "known" cheater. That line of reasoning strikes me as circular and self contradictory [not at all grey unless grey means all fucked up]. How can you validate a smurf given that by definition it is a guy playing under a false name [which in itself is cheating<>?
While I would grant you that there should be gradations of punishment for the severity of the crime, I get lost on the idea that some crimes taint crimes at all but rather are something everyone does if that be the case, would someone please tell me which of the rules are not real then I can stop being an asshat by expecting other people to observe them.
From Biscuit:
I wonder how you get by every day if you live in such a black and white world. Don't come to me about the letter of the law, you don't know the FIRST thing about it.
Actually, that is not correct. The fact is I know a bit about law, but I fail to see how that is germane.
I am making a serious inquiry to the TWL base community with regard to a widely held understanding with regard to player eligibility that is in direct conflict with the written rules. You obviously have decided that the questions I have raised are all about you they aint . so please take a deep breath, and lighten up on the name calling.
In YOUR case, a player was teamed and it was pointed out he was in-elligible, and he dropped, LESS THAN A MINUTE LATER, he never even spawned. At the point in the match, there was no score, grabs were even, and frankly, your team was doing fine. INSTEAD OF REALIZING THEY DROPPED THE PLAYER AND CONTINUING TO PLAY, you wah'd your way to the admins.
I assume you are referring to the C23 match that was recently killed if so, you need to review the facts the player in question was teamed, had earned a positive score prior to leaving the server, and was only removed after repeated objection by us that he was not on the C23 roster a roster which both team captains had gone over immediately prior to the start of the match but we digress.
Play the game, PLAY THE GAME....meaning, get on the server, initiate the match, and PLAY THE GAME. If there are serious infractions, there is help to be found.
Aaaahhhh thank your that we arrive at my question.
I want to know if you can tell me which of the rules are serious and which ones are not?
I really want to know. The rules instruct captains to validate the opposing roster prior to play, and state that objecting to same later is disallowed, and that teaming an in-eligible player after the match starts will result in an automatic forfeit. The rules also state that smurfing is not allowed.
But based on many recent comments made in these forums [including yours] it is becoming obvious to me that these aint really the rules. If objecting to the roster used in match after the fact is disallowed, then If there are serious infractions, there is help to be found makes no sense nor does the idea that smurfing is OK unless the smurf is a known cheater.. unless some infractions matter, and some dont and all Im asking is that someone tell me which ones dont matter.
I see no need for the question of what an eligible player to be so dodgy and I dont see how a big grey area as to player eligibility can work if playing the match equals tacit acceptance of the opposing roster.
I apologize in advance for the fact that you take these questions personally I never intended for you too. I am merely trying to get some feedback on issues that IMO do not make sense, and I would very much appreciate it if the leaders in this community would address them... if that upsets you, please do not feel the need to reply.
Thanks
Foz