This week I had the misfortune to have to deal with Pher once again. I was given information that Pher had been playing under the account of Deathshand- in pubs and in a match recently. The evidence pointed directly to Pher and there is no question who played. Nunquam Morimus and several players were also Perm and temp site banned for allowing and helping him conceal his identity, they are named in the Banned post. For what it is worth I did review Phers demos from his last match against ONE and I saw no signs of cheating.
Cheating and or allowing cheating it not going to be tolerated even if you are the number one team on the ladder. I made it very clear what would happen in the banned post if you allowed a banned player to compete and Guha! knew what he was doing.
It was unfortunate and a shock to us when we learned the measures NM went to in our last match, but great job to Kodiak and the TWL staff in getting to the truth.
Originally posted by: CraS}{ Good job, Kodiak. Thank you!
^^ what he said.
FWIW, for all my criticisms for decisions handed down by the admin staff, I have to admit that when they connect, they know how to knock one out of the park. I can't imagine the work that goes into keeping this ladder straight and honest, and I'll go sit down now and eat some crow (Hell, I had it coming to me )
Props to the twl staff for this one. I have a greater respect for the work they do.... Post edited by SoopaNoobie at 10/1/2003 2:04:51 PM
< Pher> holy shit
< Pher> kodiak banned tch
<^AllCreation> wtf
<^AllCreation> why?
< Pher> cause kodiak says he gave me deathhands account
< Pher> tch didnt have anything to do with it
<^AllCreation> if tch didnt have anything to do with it, he shouldnt be banned
<^AllCreation> sigh...what a messy situation
< Pher> not according to kodiak
< Pher> but he wont listen to me
< Pher> i cant believe this is happening
< Pher> if i knew this was going to happen i would never have played
< Pher> i just wanted to play t2 again with friends
<^AllCreation> i understand man, its not totally your fault
<^AllCreation> dont get so stressed over it, im sure things will work out
<^AllCreation> ive always found the admins to be really understanding if you are straight up with them
< Pher> ive hurt your team and gotten people banned when they didnt even do anything
< Pher> i feel so bad doing this to you guys
< Pher> i dont know what i should do
< Pher> god my head is killing me
< Pher> im gonna go to bed
< Pher> bye ac
conversation with pher last night
Pher didnt cheat in the match against ONE, if any of you have any questions about the truth of this statement, we would be more than happy to release his demos to the public...no cheating whatsoever took place in our match
look people, although many may not admit it, the use of smurfs has been more of a common practice than many of you think...and kodiak if you say you've never been part of a team that has used a smurf in a match, you are liar and you know it
the standard punishment for getting caught using a smurf is to forfeit the match, not a full team ban
NM let pher play in the match because he wanted to be part of the team, and the fact that he got caught for cheating in the past was not a concern to us...pher is a great fucking guy who made a stupid mistake one time and was instantly perma banned from twl for it
you know guys, ive been playing base for a long time. and honestly, i love the gametype, i outright enjoy playing base, but if this is the way is has to be, then so be it...there is no question in my mind that NM is/was the best team on the base ladder, and we DID prove it, fair and square, without cheating...but fine, have your ladder, i leave saying this though...
pher is a great fucking person, and if i had to take my team being banned in order to play with him again, i would in a heartbeat, you guys in base get so caught up with your whiny, bullshit allogations and rants, you forget that this is a game, mean to be enjoyed by friends
pher is my friend, and nothing will change that
thats all i have to say Post edited by ^AllCreation at 10/1/2003 2:43:59 PM
"we" didnt make the decision for pher to be banned from the ladder. He is a nice guy, ive known him for a while. Its the admin's chioce. So i hope that statement was directed toward the admins. --------------
([C]) Cloned
=P= Peanuts
Originally posted by: ^AllCreation < Pher> holy shit
fine, have your ladder, i leave saying this though...
pher is a great fucking person, and if i had to take my team being banned in order to play with him again, i would in a heartbeat, you guys in base get so caught up with your whiny, bullshit allogations and rants, you forget that this is a game, mean to be enjoyed by friends
pher is my friend, and nothing will change that
thats all i have to say
'Guys in base?' Do you think the people on the Classic ladder wouldn't react the same way if not worse? Dont answer because I read that forum and they are out for blood when it comes to cheating..they would be all over him.
He may be a great person but he is also known to cheat at this game...to bad he didnt remember it was 'just a game' when he used the cheat and just played it straight. People selectively use the 'its just a game' phrase...Its just a game that some take seriously enough to ruin with cheating...it is his fault...and regardless of what a great guy he may be, he cheated for god knows how long...he should have just enjoyed the game with friends and not cheated...smurfs are one thing...cheat smurfs is another.
we have supplied proof that there was no cheating in our match drumax...so despite what pher did in the past...he was not a "cheating smurf" for us, he was a regular smurf, and 3 of our players being site banned and our team being removed from the ladder for something as simple as using 1 fucking smurf is over the line
< Pher> if i knew this was going to happen i would never have played
WTH did he think was gonna happen if someone found out...good lord.
I played with pher a while back and remember him being a pretty cool guy. But he cheated and got caught and I lost some respect for him. He still may be a cool guy, and maybe this whole thing is a bit harsh, but its not up to me to decide what happens...its too bad it had to end this way for NM.
hmmmm. my interpretation of kodiak's posy was that NM was not removed from the ladder becasue pher cheated. So why do you keep denfending that All Creation? I beleive NM was removed becasue they allowed a banned player to smurf for them. Does not matter if he cheated or not. A rule was made by the admins that stated any team which allowed a banned player to smurf in a match with them would be removed. NM broke that rule. And yet you state that it bullshit, and you would do it all over again. Well all I have to say to that is, If you did, I would have no problem seeing your team "banned" all over again.
And you state that NM was the best team on the ladder. Would that be the original mambers of the team? Or the guys you sneak in to play? I guess NM really could not pull it off by themselves. AS NM had to resort to bringing in known banned cheaters to fill the gap.
Originally posted by: ^AllCreation we have supplied proof that there was no cheating in our match drumax...so despite what pher did in the past...he was not a "cheating smurf" for us, he was a regular smurf, and 3 of our players being site banned and our team being removed from the ladder for something as simple as using 1 fucking smurf is over the line
No its not...if I knew there was a known, ousted cheater smurfing on the nme team I, and most anyone else, probably even you (noooooo...) would call foul. If you dont mind people who cheat...good for you...dont think many others (who dont cheat) would feel the same.
skiptracer, pher, although not being allowed to be on the twl roster, was part of our team, and always will be, we dont need to prove anything to you about our level of skill, especially someone on a worthless fucking team like yourself...
the main issue is not the lose of our rung, its mainly the site bans issued to tch, deathhand, and guha
let me repeat, THERE IS NO DOUBT WHAT SO EVER THAT PHER CHEATED IN THE PAST...we are not disputing that, i do question the extremity of the actions taken against our team because we used 1 fucking smurf, 1 fucking time...and he DID NOT cheat in the match...period
Originally posted by: ^AllCreation we have supplied proof that there was no cheating in our match drumax...so despite what pher did in the past...he was not a "cheating smurf" for us, he was a regular smurf, and 3 of our players being site banned and our team being removed from the ladder for something as simple as using 1 fucking smurf is over the line
It isn't about the ONE match. You let a KNOWN CHEAT play with you. He was BANNED, for fucks sake. I know in high school, you can claim you were too stupid to get it, but that shit doesn't fly in the real world. NM harbored a cheat, HID HIM FROM THE PUBLIC KNOWINGLY and got punished accordingly.
Whine about what a great guy all he is all you want, but if your definition of "great guy" is someone who fucking cheats, something tells me I wouldn't WANT to be your friend.
i have been #1 on the 7man ladder on 7 different accastions skiptracer, including being #1 on every major ladder in the at the same time, PLUS i currently start for the best team in the game...i have nothing at all to prove to you...so stop trying to turn this into another bullshit base flame war
i do question the extremity of the actions taken against our team because we used 1 fucking smurf, 1 fucking time...and he DID NOT cheat in the match...period
To fucking bad.... Talk about worthless...AC > joo
Originally posted by: ^AllCreation skiptracer, pher, although not being allowed to be on the twl roster, was part of our team, and always will be
And what ladder would that be on? hhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmm.
he is a part of the team because he is our friend and hangs with us on ts...is obvious to me that you have no grasp of the english language, and please go post your dumbass comments somewhere else
Face it allcreation... you got busted for cheating and you got banned. Its that simple. Quit trying to dig your way out of it. You break the rules you get punished. You guys might have skill but you are still a bunch of pathetic losers.
with no class I might add... Post edited by - Starwind - at 10/1/2003 4:08:06 PM
Originally posted by: ^AllCreation ... i do question the extremity of the actions taken against our team because we used 1 fucking smurf, 1 fucking time...and he DID NOT cheat in the match...period
Let me give you a bit of advice (and believe me when I tell you I speak from experience): Regardless of whether you agree with the ruling, the admins made what they felt was the best decision according to the rules as stated and the evidence at hand. Screaming, yelling, swearing and wailing at the admins is not only counterproductive, but not in your best interest. Trust me, I KNOW!
As for the admins, like I've stated before (and no, not kissing ass, just that I've seen what they go through and believe me, it ain't pretty) have to deal with some crappy issues. These people are volunteers who dedicate their time so that gamers like yourself have an organized, structured, and fair ladder to compete on. Everyone knows the rules, and when they are held accountable for breaking them, so be it....that is the consequence of their actions. If you don't know the rules, I'd suggest you go read them now and see how clear they are. Smurfing is pretty clear, and so are the penalties.
Now, let's hope we learn from this lesson and let's get back to gaming.
I honestly think this topic is about 1 thing and this could get blown into oblivion with flames between players about who is where and who does what and why.
The decision of the Admin stands and cannot be reversed and I'm sure that ^Kodiak took all aspects of the situation and tried to rationalize it in the best manner possible to see what actions should or should'nt be taken. You can cry nazi all you want but he knows that what little we have left in our dying base community is ALL we have left.
I'm grateful that things were seen through the way they were cause lying causes a virus that can grow and flourish into something bigger and ultimately in the end...hurt the small community that we have.
The clan that I am in has been competing and contributing since 1998 in the tribal community and never before have we witnessed anything of this magnitude.
Lets just hold on to what we have...cause tomorrow it will all be gone
When i said cheating i am saying letting a banned smurf play
you might as well quit posting here trying to defend your lost team its not going to do any good. you broke the rules you get banned. period
set...match...game! Post edited by - Starwind - at 10/1/2003 4:15:34 PM
Originally posted by: ^AllCreation i have been #1 on the 7man ladder on 7 different accastions skiptracer, including being #1 on every major ladder in the at the same time, PLUS i currently start for the best team in the game...i have nothing at all to prove to you...so stop trying to turn this into another bullshit base flame war
Right, but this is only a game so what difference does it make what your rank is? Oh, I see. It's only a game when you want to cheat, but when it comes to bragging rights about positioning on the ladder or bolstering your own self-worth, it becomes a very important thing.
To be honest the only way I would think that NM didn't cheat in the match is if they released all their demos. You've already proven yourself proudly willing to break one rule by allowing cheating smurfs (even saying you would do it again), what would stop you from breaking other rules that you don't like?
IMO, everyone on NM who knew Pher was smurfing should be completely banned from TWL competition forever. You've been around long enough to know that TWL takes regular smurfing seriously so you can't claim ignorance of the seriousness of letting a banned cheater smurf.
-pheirce
EDIT: fixed link Post edited by pheirce at 10/1/2003 5:10:42 PM
If everyone that ever smurfed in a match along with anyone who helped them smurf were banned, there would be about 3 teams on the ladder, every other team and player would be banned. Like in the ONE vs ARES match quite a while ago, I smurfed because I wasn't legal to play yet, and everyone on ARES kept it a secret. Better ban me, along with all the other ARES members that are still in this league.
Pher was caught cheating at such-and-such. Is it unreasonable to believe that what he was caught for was not the extent of what he was cheating at? After all, the fact that he was caught for one cheat demonstrates he's got no qualms against cheating in principle. And the cheaters I've seen in RL usually cheat in just about every way they think they can get away with, once they get away with cheating once.
So maybe Pher is clean now. But it's not unreasonable to think he isn't.
And the same goes for NM. NM snuck around, knowingly let a banned cheater play for them surreptitiously. Is it unreasonable for people to think "hell, if they got caught doing that, which everyone was EXPLICITLY warned against, what else are they doing?" ?. No, it's not at all unreasonable for people to think this. And that's so regardless of whether or not NM is clean (in other words, I'm not making any further accusations here).
There's really a correct way to handle this. Fess up and suck it up like men. "Yes, we fucked up in a big way, and now we have to pay the price for that. We realize we've lost everyone's trust and we hope we can earn it back".
I remember someone else here who did that. Funny thing was, that guy wasn't even a knowing party to the cheating. But he took responsibility like a man, and everyone respected him even more for it.
Originally posted by: ^AllCreation starwind...are you fucking dense? NO CHEATING TOOK PLACE IN THE MATCH...we used a smurf...period
and using a smurf in a match is not ground for site bans
Obviously using a banned player (who was banned for cheating) is...
When we played, we allowed the other teams to use stand-ins...if I caught a smurf, probably wouldn't be a problem...catch a smurf that is a known cheater...thats when the problem starts...
every team does NOT use smurfs...stop projecting your own behaviour on others. No one whether it be on the base or classic ladder would want to play a team that used known cheaters...under smurf name even...go ask over in the other forum if THEY think this was harsh...
I see the NM used a smurf... yes that is true and should be punished by the rules. But why ban the whole team. i think that people just didnt fully understand they would get TOTALLY banned from Comp. I think they should be punished but removing the whole team off the ladder just puts more drama into this whole game.
Also removing such a large group of AWESOME players from TWL just weakens the already small group of Base players
i think we just lost some good guys that just made a bad mistake.
but hey im just a player not an admin...
much lub to Pher and AC Post edited by Archangl at 10/1/2003 4:34:06 PM
wow. I stand my Kodiaks decision fully. Sorry All Creation there is no doubt that NM is a good team IMO. BUT you broke the rules so now you have to deal with the consequences... It's to bad because your team had skills.
I hope you guys reform on the ladder with non-smurfs this time?
Originally posted by: CaRpEtBoB If everyone that ever smurfed in a match along with anyone who helped them smurf were banned, there would be about 3 teams on the ladder, every other team and player would be banned. Like in the ONE vs ARES match quite a while ago, I smurfed because I wasn't legal to play yet, and everyone on ARES kept it a secret. Better ban me, along with all the other ARES members that are still in this league.
In my tenure with OAC and SOUP, I've never once seen either team pull in a smurf, let alone a smurf who was already known to be a DIRTY FUCKING CHEAT. Don't project your own bullshit onto the rest of us, please. Thanks.