base LD

with my acknowledged limited experience in base recently and by watching a couple demos Ive dug up, Ive realized that base LD doesnt regularly use certian techniques to stop cappers. namely, disking at the stand to make the capper miss or at least injure if he does grab, and body blocking. why is this? what do ppl do instead?

signed,

Curious in Buffalo
Post edited by JT at 5/22/2003 11:32:39 AM





14v14 classic: Team 311
7v7 classic: Mexijew
12v12 base: Manner Crew

cuz elf is so much more skilled

Before I say anything, I haven't played base in like a year so i may be wrong. But it's possible that the ELF is just a lot more effective. A mistimed disk at the stand could send the capper flying at a greater speed if it's not placed infront of him to stop him. I would assume body blocking/ELF would be best for base, but like i said, i could be wrong.
BTW, maybe it could be the quality of LD you were watching in your demo JT. Not to insult anyone, but were you watching some pretty good LD?

All depends on the map. And how the flag area is situated. If it is open a body block is not a good idea as there are too many angles of attack left. But like on Kata, where there are two entrances to flag, or River, a body block or MA is the best. On open maps, discing the flag and elfing are good strategies. It also depends on what your loadout is, and how many other D you have available around you. Of course this is from my own humble experience as a gimped LD, so take it with a grain of salt and a shot of Vodka.

you just haven't seen base players defend the jamp

I think a mine on the flagstand is invaluable. It keeps the capper from MAing the LD on his way in.

As far as ELF, I think people whine way to much about it. I like it when the other team uses ELF instead of the other weapons. I think the good players can use the other weapons so much more effectively than what ELF gives. The only time I suggest our LD carry ELF is if the nme has a capper who's lagging or the player themself are lagging and even then I say "ELF or GL". Outside of those two situations, I just tell them to carry whatever they need to get their job done and none of them choose to carry ELF.

I know you may take all this with a grain of salt because dRATs doesn't have the most stellar record, but our team is a little different than most. We have a HUGE gap in the skillsets. On the 12-man we have a grandpa, son, grandson team that regularly plays (grandpa is 65 and rarely pubs and grandson is 10 but plays quite a bit). 12-man is mainly for fun.

To give the better skilled players on the team a more competitive outlet, we joined the 7-man and let everyone know that we plan on competing there. I know it's flip-flopped from most teams, but it works out pretty well for us. Plus, our 7-man team is not too bad.

So, anyway, mine on the flagstand = good in my book.

see, I dispise a mine on the flag if a defensemen is around. I will always shoot the thing as I dont wanna move to make a play and get injured by the mine. same theory holds for a capper shooting the mine and injuring me more than his disk woulda. plus, a thinking reactive player on the flag is far more effective than a simple mine.

Ill post my demo vs ni4ni on harv soon. not the greatest demo ever released but you can see where I applied classic techniques (actually old school T1 techniques) to the LoF position with some success

Hrm. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the mine explosion radius and/or exlosive power in Classic quite a bit larger than Base?

As I was typing this, I realized you didn't say anything about a mine on the flag, for some reason I thought that was in your original message.

We do employ flag disk on every map that we don't use HOF. We rarely BB on the 7-man because there's not enough players (i.e. if you miss, you are out of position and it's difficult to catch up).

Originally posted by: pheirce

Hrm. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the mine explosion radius and/or exlosive power in Classic quite a bit larger than Base?

Who cares about classic? Honestly Pheirce, this forum is uner Tribes 2 Base........for a reason.

The original question was why disk the flag stand or body block (BB)

Disking (while a mine on the flag, creates quite a bit of damage to a light capper and is usually suffient to cause them to use their rep pack immediately.....also, makes a much more wounded target for ld snipers or midfield chasers)
As for the BB, if you stop a capper cold, then where does he/she go? If you stop the capper, then turrets, other LD or yourself can spank the crap outta them (if they dont get you first). Basically, the main objective is to slow the capper down and cause as much damage as possible.

Originally posted by: SoopaNoobie

Who cares about classic? Honestly Pheirce, this forum is uner Tribes 2 Base........for a reason.

Please remove the telephone pole from your rather large ass and re-read the whole thread. This time around try to discern a few things about the people posting (like the fact that JT specifically mentions base, which indicates he's coming from a different perspective.)

-pheirce

The way my team works is that a capper CANNOT leave the flag stand un-injured...it happens sometimes of course and since I am often the LD that is playing close to the flag I get yelled at if a capper makes it out uninjured....SW is our chaser and if we can injure them then he can probably finish them off...

I also try to Body block if I am a deployer around the flag or when I am LD. I will fly up and try to get in the cappers way and then shoot down at the flag if he makes it through...so there are SOME base teams who do.

not saying that I landed every one of them vs ni4ni, but BBing in base is quite a bit easier than I am used too. My whole point in saying this, is with a little prac, a player can certianly land 70% or more of his bbs. thus making it one of the higher percentage LD plays. surprised it isnt used as widely as it could be.




14v14 classic: Team 311
7v7 classic: Mexijew
12v12 base: Manner Crew

We use an HoF on 90% of the maps, so disking the flag is counter productive. On the maps that we donot use an HoF, we disk the flag pretty consistently. As a capper tho, the flag being disked is not really that big of a deal, unless it's done directly infront of me. Any where else, and it's just a disk jump off the stand. I've actually left mines on flag stands before, and aimed so that they explode behind me, same concept. It also depends alot on the LD. Warlock, {RiP}'s main ld is a snipe and chase LD. When I play LD, I try to chain, and BB on the way in, and chase on the way out. Cleverly another of our LD's totes a Disk, Snipe, Shocklance. He tries to disk the stand and body block after the grab. It's all about how you want to play it I guess. As long as it's effective, the method doesn't matter to me much.
--------------------
Carpo Vexillum --->

I dunno, the prob with bbin is if there are two cappers. It doesnt take a lot of coordination, and u have no energy to chase the other capper with da flag.

stop them both :P

really tho, a single defender on flag isnt a good idea unless u have a good reason to run that few. during the last match, the other team ran 2 cappers following a bomber. still not quite sure how they came out of that play without a grab




14v14 classic: Team 311
7v7 classic: Mexijew
12v12 base: Manner Crew

It depends on what map it is but on a map like lets say slapdash...body blocking and discing the incoming is a great way to defend. I will mine it as well and turret around it (but not to close for bombers) deploy a MPB and then have so D forward and one or 2 playing back. Every match is dfferent and I fond the more flexible our team becomes to in game changes the better we do. If it doesnt work, slow down, discuss, change, try again.

We were big on HoF (I was a dedicated HoF player in Tribes) but now there are very few map we go that route with, maybe on beggars run or planting heavies on mino but I have found that a large portion of these maps work better with l33t LD, shockers, chainers and having one around the flag to do much of what a HoF would do...but can still chase if they have to On Boss a HoF can work if he is also a deployer (7-man) and you have good chasers and shocker to keep the spam off you.
Post edited by DruMAX at 5/22/2003 5:15:23 PM

Okay, I lied...we keep a guy next to the flag with a poop stick...

Originally posted by: Zarious

We use an HoF on 90% of the maps, so disking the flag is counter productive.

you should really rethink what you just said.

When I played Base my loadout was SL, Chain, Disk. I tried to BB as much as possible. I actually haven't changed the way I play LD very much between all the mods. The only difference is the addition of M/D and more effective DJ.

The ELF seems like it was more effective in Base++

and speed...

nah, I'm slow as shit in all of em

The elf owns base as strongly as the shrikes do. A HOF, BB'ing LD, elfing LD (also discing the flag - HOF has a shield anyway), and snipers are very tough to get through.

2 solid LD and a HOF can pretty much nail down a flag without an exorbitant amount of distraction. That's why in base matches it was feasible to overload your offense with like a 9/7 or 10/6 ratio (or more) and a skeleton D could hold down the fort and hope your O could keep thier O slowed down enough to where they couldnt mount that massive timed assault to get a quality grab.

Actaully my teams rarely uses the elf at all. We have some good snipers so we always have 1 LD sitting back and sniping while the other will try to ingure/BB enemy cappers as they come in while not sacrificing position to chase the cappers after if they get away.

Our main BB'r is our farmer who will go for a BB if she is near the flag stand. I used to do that alot too when I farmed.

JT I think it depends on the ladder regarding the kind of flag D. 7 man I wont BB as much because I want to be in position to chase. 12 man we'll have a LD sit on the flag to BB/snipe and stay at the stand.

Mining the flag is a must, it can make a huge difference for LD because that capper has to clear the flag stand instead of clearing the LD.

As for the HoF thing, Zarious is talking about a VERY good HoF. Discing her is counter productive because she can handle the cappers by herself.

to Sweets

Overall I have to say that I dont see too much elfing in competition anymore. I think it is not a preference for teams now who enjoy using their main loadouts.

It all matters what map you are playing...sometimes a HoF is workable...other times you need a fast, mostly light D...other times a deployer can make a huge difference. On maps like Slapdash a little bit of all of these is good.

We never use elf...save maybe as a turret option.

Most maps that deal with HOs though means that shocklancers are invaluable. I honestly think that good SLers and chasers good with chaingun are a must on most all maps.

see, Im from the school of thought that LoF LD stay home and doesnt chase (altho JJ will insist that we all do anyway :P ) and with that in mind, attempting a BB rarely gets me out of position.... unless I fall off the flag stand which does happen sometimes.
Post edited by JT at 5/22/2003 6:37:43 PM





14v14 classic: Team 311
7v7 classic: Mexijew
12v12 base: Manner Crew

I'd like to point out that the lack of flames in this thread rox.




14v14 classic: Team 311
7v7 classic: Mexijew
12v12 base: Manner Crew

^^ Yep.

Originally posted by: JT

I'd like to point out that the lack of flames in this thread rox.

I think this calls for a singalong.



{O N E} Aratharn
{O N E} Official Website

Originally posted by: JT

I'd like to point out that the lack of flames in this thread rox.

I agree.....but if you notice, I didn't respond to Pheirce's earlier post......because remember, arguing on the Internet is like running in the special Olympics, even if you win..........you get the picture.
PS...if yer falling off the flag.....cut down on beer consumption while tribing......It worked for me

Yes. Good topic too. JT is right that BB is very easy in base (compared to classic), but in my book it's still a relatively lower percentage play than discing the flag. If you are talking 7-man, I don't think BB is justified. If you are talking 12, 14 or 16 man, then you could probably give up a guy to try the BB.

However, another benefit to BB is it drives cappers nuts.

-pheirce

Originally posted by: SoopaNoobie

Originally posted by: JT

I'd like to point out that the lack of flames in this thread rox.

I agree.....but if you notice, I didn't respond to Pheirce's earlier post......because remember, arguing on the Internet is like running in the special Olympics, even if you win..........you get the picture.
PS...if yer falling off the flag.....cut down on beer consumption while tribing......It worked for me

if I fall off the stand (harv or damnation and other similiar maps) its because I didnt have enough jets to get back on after a bb attempt. nothing to do with beer.... I rarely drink.
Post edited by JT at 5/23/2003 1:57:37 PM





14v14 classic: Team 311
7v7 classic: Mexijew
12v12 base: Manner Crew

when bb'ing, dont forget to chain or elf him on the way in and make sure the flag is mined.

One thing I have seen SW do (and he is my LD hero) is body block with a shocklance...or he will get himself right behind an incoming light and shock them as they make the run...this is not easy to do for me.

Originally posted by: JT

I'd like to point out that the lack of flames in this thread rox.

it's getting too 0boring

Originally posted by: marantz

Originally posted by: JT

I'd like to point out that the lack of flames in this thread rox.

it's getting too 0boring

its true. but ima save my flames for the rant thread. provided some unlucky team actually challenges us




14v14 classic: Team 311
7v7 classic: Mexijew
12v12 base: Manner Crew

Originally posted by: JT

Originally posted by: marantz

Originally posted by: JT

I'd like to point out that the lack of flames in this thread rox.

it's getting too 0boring

its true. but ima save my flames for the rant thread. provided some unlucky team actually challenges us

i have an idea: let's sit at the top for a year then claim to be the biggest t2 force since 5150. then we will mysteriously find out zp's smurf account is our team's lone supporter and then, reputations soiled, slowly fade from the public eye...

when I play LD in matches (more like LoF), I constantly BB, and disc flag...

I am not the best LD/chasr out, by any means, but I find it much more effective to not allow them the grab initially, than to have to risk them setting it up for a pass before we can stop him/her.

I do carry elf, or GL, mainly because, well, the object IS to stop them form capping... is it not ?


this touches upon the catagory of turtling too, many teams incorporate it into their overall strat.
"I" think its lame. others think its lame to carry elf.
*shrugs*
in the end, wtf cares ?
as long as you play your position to the best of your ability ?

Originally posted by: pheirce

Yes. Good topic too. JT is right that BB is very easy in base (compared to classic), but in my book it's still a relatively lower percentage play than discing the flag. If you are talking 7-man, I don't think BB is justified. If you are talking 12, 14 or 16 man, then you could probably give up a guy to try the BB.

However, another benefit to BB is it drives cappers nuts.

-pheirce

I find I can do both most of the time, BB AND disc the flag.

Originally posted by: §yn†h€+ík

Originally posted by: pheirce

Yes. Good topic too. JT is right that BB is very easy in base (compared to classic), but in my book it's still a relatively lower percentage play than discing the flag. If you are talking 7-man, I don't think BB is justified. If you are talking 12, 14 or 16 man, then you could probably give up a guy to try the BB.

However, another benefit to BB is it drives cappers nuts.

-pheirce

I find I can do both most of the time, BB AND disc the flag.

Me too. try attempting a ma disk (or lance) on the capper as ur going to BB him. not only is cool as hell looking, it seems to help with landing the BB. at least for me.




14v14 classic: Team 311
7v7 classic: Mexijew
12v12 base: Manner Crew

Originally posted by: §yn†h€+ík

I find I can do both most of the time, BB AND disc the flag.

I know who's going to be playing flag guardian real soon