lets talk about changing 50 +/- to 35+/-

com on guys lets close this gap and make the pings more on the even side.

No.
___________________________

leet1, this is a discussion we have often. As it is, finding servers with even pings is very difficult. I understand how frustrating it can be. The 50+/- is about the best we can expect.

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TWL|V1X3N
TeamWarfare Competition Manager
Email: v1x3n@teamwarfare.com
IRC: #teamwarfare, #twl_rtcw

Like other sports and games, what is wrong with having a bit of a homefield advantage anyhow?

what about in this situation:

both teams have set up servers, on 1 server the diferance is 49, on another the differance is 13. can we make it so its required to play the beter pinging server. instead of the 49 server

see tht what im talking about playing on the better of servers

Rov, that's a very interesting idea. We have discussed it in the past, but usually end the discussion with "why wouldn't they?" In other words, we just assume it'd be normal to a team to play on a server where the differential is not so great.

A couple things come to mind on this, however. The ping differential may be less, but your top player is pinging high. In that case, you'd want to go to the higher-differential server. There's a million scenarios. It's difficult to write rules to cover everything.

We'll discuss this some more this week, I'm sure.

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TWL|V1X3N
TeamWarfare Competition Manager
Email: v1x3n@teamwarfare.com
IRC: #teamwarfare, #twl_rtcw

The only problem is teams being dicks for ping advantage. Players should be able to take care of this themselves.

It would be next to impossible for two teams to have a diff of 13 on one server and 49 on another. Ping has to do with the players location to that of the server. If someone is on the west coast and pings 35 on a west coast server say a midwest player pings at 75. The only way they are going to meet in the middle for a better ping is to find a server in the middle which isn't very likely. Clans typically get servers in their own region. If they play a clan from a different region it is highly unlikely that either of the two clan's servers are going to be a middle ground. Thats why servers are rotated for the different rounds.

Originally posted by: SuperRage
It would be next to impossible for two teams to have a diff of 13 on one server and 49 on another.

plz dude look at a map
its comon sense and a little 6th grade math at most

Couple of issues about servers that commonly get overlooked. TWL doesn't provide them and, thus, makes only recommendations concerning them. The only requirements made by TWL are those concerning the configuration used for matches.

The ping average recommendation is +/-50 with all clients using cl_maxpackets set to value 30 and snaps set to value 40, which if you ever actually got everyone to comply, would validate about 90% of the servers out there for any North American match. (Temptation tangent ... its been my experience that some teams tend to exploit this recommendation to demand the use of another server, even when the apparent average ping is within a few milliseconds, but I won't go there ...) Nevertheless, should it prove there is a variance in team average ping greater than 50ms, another server should be used. This recommendation provides the team with the higher ping standing to insists that a different server be used.

Using the 3v3 ladder rule set as an example:

TeamWarfare recommends the average ping of both teams be within 50 milliseconds, plus or minus. The current version of OSP automatically averages a team's average ping in the score screen. When either team wishes to determine team ping averages, all players must change the following settings to the specified values, as follows

1. cl_maxpackets set to value 30
2. snaps set to value 40


These settings may be verified by using the "/players" command in the console screen. Only after the requesting team has informed the other team they have obtained an average ping for both teams, may players change the above settings to other values, while remaining in compliance with the TWL Match configuration PunkBuster limitations.

In the event the average ping of both team is greater than 50 milliseconds, TeamWarfare recommends the use of another server.

If one team's server(s) provide an average within 50 milliseconds and the other team's server(s) provide an average greater than 50 milliseconds, the server(s) providing the average within 50 milliseconds will be used for the match.

In the event the servers of both teams provide an average outside of the 50 millisecond recommendation, either a third party server needs to be used or both teams must reach an agreement on what server(s) will be used for the match.

It is generally preferable for all match rounds to be completed on one (1) server. However, should circumstances arise where both teams believe it is necessary to complete the match on multiple servers, the following guideline is provided for server choice designations:

* Rounds 1, 2, and 5 - Defender's server choice (first map and tie-breaker round)
* Rounds 3 and 4 - Challenger's server choice (second map)

TeamWarfare will not become involved in disputes concerning team average ping. Teams have plenty of opportunity to address this issue and arrange suitable alternatives by use of Match Comms prior to the scheduled match date and time.

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TWL|NiteSwine
TeamWarfare Competition Staff
Email: niteswine@teamwarfare.com
IRC: #teamwarfare, #twl_rtcw

ya, we had that problem with a certain clan you may know about a few days ago niteswine.

Originally posted by: Spiza
ya, we had that problem with a certain clan you may know about a few days ago niteswine.

Merely one of many such experiences. The issue tends to resolve itself, tho, when the match begins ... but seems to crop up again between rounds. What fantastic luck some have with connection problems. Mine usually goes haywire when I really need it to work right.

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TWL|NiteSwine
TeamWarfare Competition Staff
Email: niteswine@teamwarfare.com
IRC: #teamwarfare, #twl_rtcw

Originally posted by: rov?

Originally posted by: SuperRage
It would be next to impossible for two teams to have a diff of 13 on one server and 49 on another.

plz dude look at a map
its comon sense and a little 6th grade math at most

Let me restate...the only time you are going to see that dramatic of a swing in ping diff is if an East Clan is playing a West Clan and they use a server in the mid-west versus a East or West server.

Regardless, unless the ping diff is just ridiculous..the team that shows up with solid players, well organized, tested strats and strong teamwork is going win.

Um, actually you're wrong Super. You can see an avg ping difference of 10 to 50 on two different servers located in the same city!

It all depends on your clan's ISP's, the other clan's ISP's, and the data center's ISP's where the server is located.

Example; I ping 16 to a prime data server in Atlanta. To a crappy one in atl, I've seen 130 pings. To drive the point home, there's a data center IN MY CITY which I can't get under 150 ping.

Maps are only a "guideline", and logically would be the thing to look at. In most cases west cost will ping worse to east coast than east coast peeps. But milage, proverbially does, vary in this case.

By "map" I took him to mean the U.S. "backbone" map that shows peering points. The one you'd see in an ISP's Network Ops Center. If you're lucky enough to have that screen, you can see where peering points are getting whacked, which will lead to some outrageous pings even next door. Physical location bears little real value when considering ping.

Also, it's important to consider that most clans are not geographically close. As in Damage, the members were spread from California to England. THAT was fun to try and find a server for.

Mostly CHI and TX work out well for server locations, simply due to where the major peering points are located. Although at times a providor (not your ISP but a backbone providor) may have difficulty with routing through one of the points, mostly they work well. Keep in mind that a sudden increase in ping can be brought on by ISP, backbone providor, or even the particular computer's internal temperature suddenly spiking. There are other causes for sudden ping problems, so it's just not something we can really "legislate" for.

The Internet is a global thing, and it is run by a huge variety of organisations and companies. TWL cannot even begin to write rules for all of the possible contingencies. I think that +/- 50 is about the best we can do.

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TWL|V1X3N
TeamWarfare Competition Manager
Email: v1x3n@teamwarfare.com
IRC: #teamwarfare, #twl_rtcw

all i know is back in the day teams used to find a server tht was fair for each side now its all about who we can screw who with home feild atvantage. i recall -666- server in seattle well answer to tht was i made sure we and a few other clans just never challenged them. so what happend to them? rest my case.

There are a few reasons why home-field advantage plays an important role, however. The whole point in calling it homefield advantage is just that, its an ADVANTAGE. Criticizing a team for utilizing the advantage allowed to them is unfair in itself. What if your team had the advantage, wouldnt you like to use it? Also, when pings are within +/- 50 the advantage is still there, but isnt a deciding factor on the outcome of a match. Personally, your team's preparation and strategy for a given map decides the outcome, not kills.

If this were a deathmatch ladder, i would fully understand your point, but since strategies and objectives are key here, homefield advantage plays a small part.

My team has been undergoing repeated flames for being "cheap" and "playing mind games" simply for playing within the rules and choosing to play homefield advantage. Once again, i would agree with your point, if the rounds went 2-0, then ended up 2-2 when switching to the opponents server, but this isnt the case. We still take the win on the opponents server, why? We have the ping disadvatage there, but our strategies and teamwork help us overcome this.
(Remember SS v ASF on beach? On the SS cal server, we had a tie one round, won the next two... switched servers, had another tie, then SS set the best time of the match on ASF's server to take the win)
Personally, i dont see how you can call pings into factor here, its obvious the better team STRATEGICALLY won. Both teams have great shooters.

Also, the SS team has a lot of great players ranging from all over, and we all put our greatest efforts into attending matches. That way we will utilize our best pingers on any given server. Its called being a team and playing your strongest players where they count most!

I think the most important thing we should all be focusing on is sportsmanship. I have viewed many unsportsmanlike conduct from several players, and it reflects on the conduct of the whole team. Wait your turn, when you take the #1 rung, how willing will you be to give up your homefield advantage to give that spot away?

People are retarded if they don't think ping gives you a huge advantage in some cases, I could name several cases where ping made a change. I also know several matches where nox has gone 2-0, team being dicks moves us to diff server for ping advantage and wins the next 2 rounds. We take them back to nox's server and win the tiebreak. Hell, even nox was able to cap on assault against metal gawdz when we took them out to san fransisco on assault. We had no chance to plant at a chicago server.

I agree that in shrub it would make less of a difference because of helmet protection. The skill and reaction time in fire fights just gets even less important. I've heard many people say wolf is 10% shots, 90% strategy, but I don't think thats right. Fx could beat most teams even if they just pubbed and didn't have voice. I would say its more 50-50. And when your pings are shit, your shot goes down.

And if SS is taking people to LA, they are retarded. I can only assume thats the case SS is trying to defend since I see they have a chicago and LA server. There is no west coast rtcw anymore, and no matches should be played on a server west of texas.

Why do you think people are dicks for playing on a server of their choice (if they have right to choose), and if pings are within rules? What I see lately is everyone talks about fairness and sportsmanship, but it actually transpires into whining and complaining. If its according to rules, play the damn game.

why bring asf up here i never said anything about tht match in my last post just drop it and stick to topic . how can you guys ask asf to stop posting about tht match when its clear ss still is ?
Post edited by leet1 at 4/4/2005 4:01:27 PM

hmmmmmmm

Based on what I see in this thread alone, there is probably a case for amending or changing the rules regarding server choice. I personally didn't think it'd be necessary. I can see now that there are teams that will push to have a particular server that gets them the full 50ms ping advantage. While this is within rules, I find that to be a bit on the "taking advantage" side. The SPIRIT of the rule is that you play on the server that most closely evens the ping. If you ping within 10-12 ms on one server and 40-50ms on the other, you SHOULD play on the 10-12 ms differential server. That is what the rule never really addresses, I suppose. We just thought (silly us) that people would exhibit some sense and choose the server with the LEAST differential.

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TWL|V1X3N
TeamWarfare Competition Manager
Email: v1x3n@teamwarfare.com
IRC: #teamwarfare, #twl_rtcw

Leet1, i was only bringing up that match merely as an example of how, regardless of the ping advantage or server choice, SS was still able to take the win. I wasnt trying to rekindle the fire.

Originally posted by: V1X3N
hmmmmmmm
We just thought (silly us) that people would exhibit some sense and choose the server with the LEAST differential.

No comment

Originally posted by: V1X3N
hmmmmmmm

Based on what I see in this thread alone, there is probably a case for amending or changing the rules regarding server choice. I personally didn't think it'd be necessary. I can see now that there are teams that will push to have a particular server that gets them the full 50ms ping advantage. While this is within rules, I find that to be a bit on the "taking advantage" side. The SPIRIT of the rule is that you play on the server that most closely evens the ping. If you ping within 10-12 ms on one server and 40-50ms on the other, you SHOULD play on the 10-12 ms differential server. That is what the rule never really addresses, I suppose. We just thought (silly us) that people would exhibit some sense and choose the server with the LEAST differential.

No disrespect V1X3N but this is BS....all you have heard in this thread is rhetoric and you are falling for it. The only research you are using are the rants of a few players. Do some research of demos and then come forward that a change may be necessary. Sounds like you are shooting from the hip with some shaky knees here. In most if not all of our matches we have been seeing ping differentials of about 30. Most of our match players live on the West Coast and we have been seeing avg pings of about 50 for our team with the other team around 80. When we move over to their server the pings do a 180 with our ping avg going to 80 and the other team's going to 50. Its not as you state going to a server with a 50 ping diff over a server with a 10-12.

To Vixen, I would suggest that you acquire some proof, be it demos, logs, whatever of one team winning a match with the main reason being the ping advantage before deciding to change the existing rule. I have only heard opinions up to this point without any concrete proof (actual match data etc...) to back claims in this thread. Also, if the rule is changed to +/- 35, you need to take into account that some teams will deliberately play their high pingers in a match so they won't have to play on the oppositions server. My conclusion would be, unless you see home teams winning in the fifth round a lot, then there's really no data to backup the 'ping wins matches' claim and that the rule is fine the way it it.

Then get a texas server. I totally agree vix. I would make it something like 20, but then throw out the worst pinger from both teams.

Originally posted by: -|SS|-T4lb0t
To Vixen, I would suggest that you acquire some proof, be it demos, logs, whatever of one team winning a match with the main reason being the ping advantage before deciding to change the existing rule. I have only heard opinions up to this point without any concrete proof (actual match data etc...) to back claims in this thread. Also, if the rule is changed to +/- 35, you need to take into account that some teams will deliberately play their high pingers in a match so they won't have to play on the oppositions server. My conclusion would be, unless you see home teams winning in the fifth round a lot, then there's really no data to backup the 'ping wins matches' claim and that the rule is fine the way it it.

If pings don't matter, then you shouldn't be compaining about a rule change. You should just play all your games on east coast servers since it won't make a difference.

I didn't say pings don't matter, I said pings don't win matches. Learn to read. I also live in Vancouver, BC but you wouldn't know what that means cause the world revolves around East Coast USA doesn't it?

To Vixen, I thought I'd get you some data on SS and their last 10 matches.

Home - Win 3-0
Home - Win 3-1
Home - Win 3-0
Away - Win 3-2
Home - Win 3-0
Home - Win 3-0
Home - Win 3-0
Away - Win 3-1
Home - Win 3-0
Away - Win 3-0

As you can see the only match that went 5 rounds was one that wasy exclusively played on the opponents Texas server.
Like I said before, ping might buy you some time and win you a round, but it doesn't win matches.

why is ss posting there record? who cares? this is about making more even server. about making matches more even .my god if your so great of a team why are you guys complaining the most about a change?

Originally posted by: leet1
why is ss posting there record? who cares? this is about making more even server. about making matches more even .my god if your so great of a team why are you guys complaining the most about a change?

That's only our TWL record for the last ten matches. Including our 3-0 win last night in the STA semi-finals (all on X's server) we are on a 20-0 since Jan.

Talbot is saying that you need to get the some real numbers to back up your rhetoric.

We aren't complaining about anything...we are saying put your money where your mouth is and quit whinning when you lose.

Before you attack, I must remind you that I have played my fair share of matches. I have seen the arguments over server choice.

By ping differential, I mean the difference between one team's OVERALL AVERAGE PING and the other's. Not one player to another.

This argument isn't about one particular team or match or whatever. These server choice arguments pop up for more matches than ever lately. If, in doing my research, I find there's one team that's doing more arguing than others, then perhaps rule changes aren't necessary. But, that one team may find itself being subject to TWL Admin overview during matches, along with having to accept the choice of server as made by the admin to settle a dispute. That's exactly the kind of thing we don't like being involved with. However, sometimes we find it necessary as these arguments get quite heated.

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TWL|V1X3N
TeamWarfare Competition Manager
Email: v1x3n@teamwarfare.com
IRC: #teamwarfare, #twl_rtcw

Leet1.
why bring asf up here i never said anything about tht match in my last post just drop it and stick to topic . how can you guys ask asf to stop posting about tht match when its clear ss still is ?

Why? Because this whole thread is a thinly veiled shot at SS once again by you Leet1??
Thats all thats clear...
________________
Leet1.
why is ss posting there record? who cares? this is about making more even server. about making matches more even .my god if your so great of a team why are you guys complaining the most about a change?

Posting "there" record so you can review your team losing at home and away to SS on 2 different servers......last 2 matchups went

3-1 SS Infamy with ASF choosing the server location (all 4 rounds).

3-1 SS Beach 1,2,5 SS choice , 3,4 on ASF choice

you managed to get 2 points combined out of 6 total rounds at your server choice...if your team was losing in round 5 tiebreakers you may have a case LEET1 , but you can't hold points when you have the ping advantage so give it up.

Originally posted by: V1X3N
Before you attack, I must remind you that I have played my fair share of matches. I have seen the arguments over server choice.

By ping differential, I mean the difference between one team's OVERALL AVERAGE PING and the other's. Not one player to another.

This argument isn't about one particular team or match or whatever. These server choice arguments pop up for more matches than ever lately. If, in doing my research, I find there's one team that's doing more arguing than others, then perhaps rule changes aren't necessary. But, that one team may find itself being subject to TWL Admin overview during matches, along with having to accept the choice of server as made by the admin to settle a dispute. That's exactly the kind of thing we don't like being involved with. However, sometimes we find it necessary as these arguments get quite heated.

Common Vix...you aren't seriously calling it research reading forums. These may call your attention to an opportunity but you need to get logs and demos and look at the numbers.

-|SS|- isn't affraid of change, but we don't favor a rule change that will allow a challenging clan to get a 30 ping advantage for an entire match over the defending Clan. That just doesn't make sense. Get the numbers and then make a case.

you guys are getting old posting your records and pointing out your wins. maybe you should start a thread about ss but this is about making a more even playing feild.nobody cares about the asf ss crap so stop playing tht card.try to contribute some good to this thread instead of self-loathing. vix we all at asf will work with anyone thts wants to test some servers out and see if we can even it up some.

i like how ss is god of shrub but afraid to play the league join up guys

Originally posted by: ^c0ff1
i like how ss is god of shrub but afraid to play the league join up guys

We are in the STA League Finals this Sundy. We just don't favor the /kill style of play. We like limited life play where, IMO, teamplay is more emphasized.

Shrub with ultl & panz is really OSP ...its the max lives that makes teamwork necessary and the Eng class a weapon. It means nothing to scarifice on a mine in ultl..

yeah we're terrified of league play

http://base.sta-league.org/shrub/

Some of you are arguing for a rule change and I am arguing against it. I posted our record because it's data that backs up my side of the argument. This is not about SS, ASF, who is better than who, etc. It is about backing up your claims with proof. If you read my post, the part with the data states "To Vixen". Do not ask me why I post something when it's not addressed to you. Leet1, you need to learn not to speak when you're not spoken to.