Ping Differential

It is my opinion that the +/- 75 for the team is just way too much. I realize that not all servers can be located in the middle the continent. On the other hand having them as far east or west as they could possibly be is rediculous as well. I am in favor and I am quite sure that many more would be as well if we could tighten up that difference some. Just a suggestion would be +/- 35. That way everyone would be inside of a fair limit. As it stands one team could be pinging 25 and the other 100 and that would be considered inside the legal limits. What is fair about that. A 100 ping stands very little chance against a 25 regardless of skill. Now if you have one man pinging 25 and the other is pinging 60. Skill might be factored into that equation. Im voting for a change. At least on the shrub ladder as that is the only place that we seem to have a problem.

I have an opinion on this matter already but would like some more feedback from people in the ladder. Please throw up your suggestions

thanks

50 +/-, 35 is simply to low.

I'm in favor of a 35+/- ping. I usually average a 50-60 ping in most places outside of way far east and way far west. I.E. NYC,NY I ping 98 to 105, same in SF,CA. I would prefer a mid-west server such as CHI, TX, ATL somewhere in those regions appear to be rather equal.

I am for a change. I think between 35 and 50 avg would be good.

Good luck finding a +/35 ping. You'll never be playing any matches at all anymore.

TWL better deliver up some "TWL Friendly" servers then if they enforce this rule. Yes, I'm from 666 - and I'm trying to speak unbiased from my earlier OSP competitive days as reference. Clans can't be expected to get servers in the central US - then the people who live in Dallas will get 20 pings and the West Coast will get 80. +/-75 may be a bit high for some people because they aren't used to playing with 100 ping but +/- 50 is going to be hard to satisfy in matches.

Are you going to force the people in the West Coast and the East coast to start moving their servers? What happens if we host our own?

On a straight 1-1 match between two equally skilled people who are on par-to-par perfect skills ping will matter on a +/-75 difference. But this scenario is often NEVER played out. Someone sees someone first and gets a first headshot in and THATS what determines the gun battle. Neo on our team gets consistent high kill ratios on our server despite his ping of 100+ constantly. If you are talking about greater variances like 300 ping vs 50 well then of course - someone's reaction time can make the difference at that desparity. I would like to remind everyone as well that its not like everyone is +/- 74 ping of each other in these matches. Every time we've played we've always been WELL within the limits - mostly 20-30 ping difference on average between ALL our players and ALL the opposing teams players.

For example I remember two of the [x] players pinging in the 30-40 range on our server. I pinged in the 20's - we played on their server they pinged in the 50's I pinged in the 100's.

Skill will win out over +/- 75 ping every time - and you'll find even if it moves to +/- 50 ping we'll find the 666 server will STILL be within limits. So you better make it lower so you'll ban our server completely unless you're west coast.

Now THATS the way to kill the Wolf community.
Post edited by uptaphunk at 9/2/2004 12:41:05 PM

Originally posted by: /2-Blade
I'm in favor of a 35+/- ping. I usually average a 50-60 ping in most places outside of way far east and way far west. I.E. NYC,NY I ping 98 to 105, same in SF,CA. I would prefer a mid-west server such as CHI, TX, ATL somewhere in those regions appear to be rather equal.

Of course you do, you're probably located centrally. I'm not about to move to Texas so I get good pings. gawd.

As far as 666 goes, we'll play on another server other than our own - we played 3 rounds on [x] server. According two TWL rules, however we were entitled to play 2 of those rounds on our server. So we did. We were within the 50 ping range with [x] - but definitely not within the 35 range - even on their server we were not within the 35 range.
Post edited by uptaphunk at 9/2/2004 12:48:46 PM

I think 50 +/- would be perfect. And I believe that ping matters in most cases. Many teams on this ladder are pretty equal with exception of few of course, so 75 +/- will really play a big role on who wins and who doesn't.

I don't know, I see 50 +/- as a good average.

if a guy always plays w/ a 100 ping then has a match at 100 ping then yup its no problem. i bet most of the people asking for a change here though is because they are forced to play at a ping rate much higher than they are used to.you set up a practice on your own server before a match and ping 20,30,40. then at match time move to another server and ping 90.100 or more. thats were it gets ya. +/- 50 any thing less will be tough.

Originally posted by: Predator000
I think 50 +/- would be perfect. And I believe that ping matters in most cases. Many teams on this ladder are pretty equal with exception of few of course, so 75 +/- will really play a big role on who wins and who doesn't.

I don't know, I see 50 +/- as a good average.

And I know from your previous comments you are making a weak attempt at implicating 666. Most people would like to think that ping matters but it only matters when you play at a ping you aren't used to. Do you suck at 100 ping? Then play on servers that you get 100 ping on and within a couple of hours you'll be headshotting just as good as you did on your 30 ping server.

There are lots of ppl that kick ass at average pings - check Da_G or DocHolliday. I've seen them with 100+ pings pwn the map. In short, get off your cozy server and play other servers.

+/- 50 is fine with me, we'll STILL be within limits. To tell you the truth, I don't think the +/-75 rule is even enforced because its never close. We don't win unless we're -74 ping of the opposing team and we all suck cuz we need 20 ping to play. Ya, whatever. Why don't you ask peeps who scrim with us on a regular basis if thats true. So if they change the rule to +/- 50 are we going to hear the end of everyone's whining and complaining that the only reason 666 won is because of the ping?

Didn't think so.
Post edited by uptaphunk at 9/2/2004 2:03:17 PM

I will make no bones about it. I posted this thread as a direct result of your server. (666). I have played on just about everyone's server that is on the shrub ladder. And everyones seems to be fine with the exception of yours. I live as far east coast as you can get. It makes absolutely no sense for me to play on a Seattle server. That is as far from me as you could possibly get. Every server in the shrub ladder My team pings 80's or less. Your server we ping 96 - 120. Why in the hell would anyone who competes against other teams from throughout the US and Canada put their server in the farthest northwest position you could get. Why, unless you want to use that as an advantage, which obviously you are. Because you simply refuse to play on central servers. My clan will never play a single twl round against you on your server. Im all about playing fair and doing whats right. But we are not gonna play three rounds on a server where we get ping raped. And its not just me or my clan mates. Practically the entire shrub ladder has a negative opinion or your server. Why do you think that is? Do you have to move it? No. The next question is do you want to play matches? I'd love to play you guys and have no hard feelings against any of you. The hard truth is, its not gonna happen cause you guys are not willing to play on an equal server. It's always "we earned the right to play on our server" or "How about we'll play in your playground and then we'll play in ours?" How bout we dont play yours or ours? How bout we pick one in the middle of our locations so we can have a fair match. Is that too much to ask? I think it probably is. I just moved our server from virginia to chicago for a more central locationa and it has helped out serveral ppl. It increased my ping from 38 or so to 48 to 50. What is the big deal. Make it fair. To sum up here, I don't dislike you guys at all. I am just looking for a fair match. +/- 75 team avg is not a fair match. It is just that simple.

I agree, what is the chance of an entire team pinging an average of 75 above the other team?

It's possible, but I sure have NEVER seen it.

I am with Anikan on this one, as far as you can get on the east coast, so if I were to play on a west coast server like 666, then it'd be just bullet bait for all the west coasters. I mean come on, higher ping means that in a face to face gunfight, you see the opponent first, get the first shot, and your shots aren't delayed nearly as much. That is what happens with maybe even a 50+ ping differential, whereas 50 is the maximum tolerance to be able to even compete.

Just my 2 cents.

I see you're commenting on my comment Uptahunk. I don't know where you saw my previous comments about pings. I just voiced my opinion in support of those who do have an issue with pings. Since you right away thought this was about 666 server, it tells me that you heard alot of negative comments about your server. I ping very good to your server, since I'm California based, and have also played servers with high pings which don't matter to me. But to some people does, and you may want to listen for a change.

The reason I support 50 +/- even though as you said you don't often hit the 75 +/- rule, it will at least make players feel better that the ping avarage is much lower than it used to be, and there wont be as much issues with it as it used to be.

yep 666 will do everything in there power to shoot down the 35+ ping rule.but hot 20 members in asf are all for it .we dont play on uk servers why must we play on a server tht is located in seattle. and no this server is not like a cali server. its like 1000 miles north of cail.no team has a fair shake there cept them.we have a server in texas and played over 50 matches in AND NEVER GOT A COMPLAINT. well asf is not afraid to lose to anyclan. we only ask tht we be giving a fair shot.and 666 is the worst clan to deal with on this issue.ive been in twl for 3 years and never came across a clan [untill now 666] tht would not move to a central server.these guys use the rule to the teeth about if some1 challenges us then WE WILL USE THERE SERVER.LOOK IF THEY CAN NOT GET ALONG IN THE COMMUNITY THEN LEAVE IT .I REALLY DONT SEE THE ISSUE WITH GETTING A SERVER THT WOULD BE A FAIR, I GUESS THEY JUST NEED THT ATVANTAGE.SAD REALLY SAD. AGAIN I WILL BE SENDING EMAILS TO ALL OF SHRUB LADDER LEADERS AND ASKING FOR COMPLEAT BOYCOTT OF 666 SORRY IT HAD TO COME TO THIS GUYS BUT YOU ONLY CARE ABOUT THE WIN AND NOT HOW YOU GET IT .WE DO NOT NEED THIS IN THIS COMMUNITTY.

OMFG......LMAO 35 PING RULE......WHATS WRONG ANI U NEED A 35 PING TO KILL PEEPS NOW AND DAYS?

MAN ALL I HEAR FROM MOST OF U IS ALOT OF WHINNING LEAVE THAT TO THE WOMAN!!!

THAT 35 PIING SHIT WILL NOT WORK CUZ U WILL NOT FIND TOO MANY SERVERS AROUND FOR THAT BUT HEY GL TRYING...UNTILL THEN KEEP ON BITCHING MAYBE SOMEONE WHO CARES WILL RESPOND..LOL

I OWN WITH 100 PING A 50 PING AND EVEN 200 PING!!
U SO CALLED "OMFG ITS PING THAT MATTERS THE MOST" IS A BUNCH OF SHIT!!! MIGHT AS WELL JUST MAKE THE COMPETITION SET FOR LAN ONLY SINCE THAT IS THE MOST FAIREST THING TO DO, BUT LIKE THATS GOING TO HAPPEN....LOL....PING RULE WE HAVE NOW IS FINE I LIKE THE 75 AND UNDER...HELL IN MOST MATCHES WE PLAYED WITH OVER 100 PING AND DIDNT CRY LIKE ALOT OF U WOULD!!!

-/+ 35 LOL ARE YOU JOKING? YOU ASK WHY WE HAVE A SEATTLE SERVER? WE HAVE 3 MEMBERS FROM ALASKA, 3 FROM WESTERN CANADA AND THE REST FROM CALI. THAT IS THE MOST CENTRAL LOCATION FOR OUR CLAN! WHAT ARE PEOPLE FROM ALASKA AND CANADA NO LONGER ALLOWED TO PLAY ANIKAN AND ELITE?? WE HAD 1 MEMBER PING 150 IN THE X SERVER (APPARRENTLY CENTRAL SERVER) AND WE STILL BEAT THEM AND THAT PLAYER WAS EFFECTIVE. IF THERE IS A -/+ 35 THEN EAST AND WEST COAST CLANS WILL NEVER GET WITHIN THOSE SPECS. AND PEOPLE ACCUSING 666 OF HAVE A SEATTLE SERVER TO CHEAT IS THE MOST IGNORANT THING I HAVE HEARD. THE PEOPLE WHO PAY FOR THIS SERVER LIVE IN ALASKA FOR CHRISTSAKES. CUTTING THE ORIGINAL STANDARD IN HALF IS INSANE. THERE IS 3 NEW CLANS IN OUR LADDER FROM CALI NOW SO THIS +/- 35 AIN'T GOING TO FLY. AND BETWEEN YOU AND ME WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CALI AND SEATTLE IN REGARDS TO LOCATION? IN REGARDS TO EAST/WEST SCRIMS? JUST AN EXCUSE TO CRY IF YOU ASK ME.

Originally posted by: elite 1
yep 666 will do everything in there power to shoot down the 35+ ping rule.but hot 20 members in asf are all for it .we dont play on uk servers why must we play on a server tht is located in seattle. and no this server is not like a cali server. its like 1000 miles north of cail.no team has a fair shake there cept them.we have a server in texas and played over 50 matches in AND NEVER GOT A COMPLAINT. well asf is not afraid to lose to anyclan. we only ask tht we be giving a fair shot.and 666 is the worst clan to deal with on this issue.ive been in twl for 3 years and never came across a clan [untill now 666] tht would not move to a central server.these guys use the rule to the teeth about if some1 challenges us then WE WILL USE THERE SERVER.LOOK IF THEY CAN NOT GET ALONG IN THE COMMUNITY THEN LEAVE IT .I REALLY DONT SEE THE ISSUE WITH GETTING A SERVER THT WOULD BE A FAIR, I GUESS THEY JUST NEED THT ATVANTAGE.SAD REALLY SAD. AGAIN I WILL BE SENDING EMAILS TO ALL OF SHRUB LADDER LEADERS AND ASKING FOR COMPLEAT BOYCOTT OF 666 SORRY IT HAD TO COME TO THIS GUYS BUT YOU ONLY CARE ABOUT THE WIN AND NOT HOW YOU GET IT .WE DO NOT NEED THIS IN THIS COMMUNITTY.

FUNNY, I KNOW UV, DSB, R.ROCKSTAR AND SS WOULD BE AGAINST THIS -/+ 35 CRAP. JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE 666 DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE TO BEG THE REST OF THE CLANS TOO. THERE ARE CLANS 666 IS GOOD FRIENDS WITH AND IT WAS STATED IN THE RANTS AS WELL. WHO ARE YOU TO SAY WHAT THE WOLF COMMUNITY NEEDS AND DON'T NEEDS? OH YEAH, TEXAS MAYBE CENTRAL EAST/ WEST BUT IT ISN'T NORTH/SOUTH (I GUESS THOSE MILES DON'T COUNT?) HEY ELITE, THE 2O MEMBERS ON ASF AND !F DOESN'T RUN THIS LADDER, THERE ARE 18 OTHER TEAMS REMEMBER? WE HAVE 20 MEMBERS TOO SO WHAT? MAYBE WE SHOULD BOYCOTT TEXAS SERVERS BECAUSE THEY ARE SOOOO DOWN SOUTH, I MEAN THAT'S YOUR EXCUSE IN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CALI AND SEATTLE. SOUNDS STUPID, DOESN'T IT? IF YOU HAVE A PROBS WITH 666 ATTACK US ELITE!! DON'T DRAG THE REST OF THE LADDER DOWN WITH YOUR PETTY EXCUSES AND COPE OUTS!! AS FOR THE ADVANTAGE SERVER COPE OUT, WE HAVE 3 MEMBERS IN ALASKA AND AND 3 IN WESTERN CANADA. I GUESS US NORTHERN PEOPLE WHO PLAY WOLF ARE JUST CHEATERS TRING TO TAKE ADVANTAGE RIGHT? GIVE ME A BREAK. HOW ABOUT OUR NORTHWEST CLAN HAVE A SERVER IN MIAMI SO ELITE AND ANI ARE HAPPY. DON'T THINK SO. THIS WAS NEVER EVEN AN ISSUE UNTIL WE STARTED BEATING THE TOP TEAMS IN THEIR SERVERS THEN ASF ATTACKS US AND LET THE CRYING BEGIN. ASF FELL WITHIN THE STATED +/- PERAMETER AND WOULD EVEN OF FELL IN THE -/+ 50 FOR THAT MATTER. ELITE WASN'T EVEN AT THAT MATCH SO WHY IS HE EVEN TALKING. AND YES AS I RECALL WE DO HAVE A DEMO TO PROVE IT. THIS IS A COPE OUT PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

-/+35 is rediculous. So one guy ping 50 and one 85....OMG STOP THE MATCH!!! You will never have a match then. There will always be that difference with one or more players no matter where you are from. Unless TWL wants to split everything up into east coast and west coast leagues. Jesus your all babies. I dont give a shit...ill play on a N.Y. server and I live in Cali. You beat me....OH WELL! It's cause I suck and you are better....not my ping. Damn I remember playing a 3 on 3 against a euro team in their server. I pinged 200+ and they were in 40's. Now that is a difference. We got beat down....but I never blamed ping. Took the loss and went on with my life. Your all just crybabies and look for excuses on why you lost. Grab your nuts for a change. You are men are'nt you??? Bring on any server in the U.S. and ill play. I am not gonna be a sissy.

I'm also for a +/- 50 team average, as in the OSP ladder/leagues. However, I'd like to see some of the ping manipulation cvars limited at least during any determination of what server is used. As an example, we played a team resently that jacked up their settings to inflate thier pings so they could insist on playing on their server (as examples, maxpackets, snaps, maxfps, etc. -- several affect displayed and/or actual ping). OSP match, BTW. Then, when we got on their server, they adjusted their settings to lower thier pings. It went from a +/- 40-50 ping issue favoring us (60ms v 100ms) to a +/- 35-45 ping favoring them (65ms v 35ms). Funny thing was both servers were geographically similar, according to NeoTrace Pro. Play nice. Play fair. HF.

Before any “reasonable” discussion can ensue, one must come to grips with the meanings behind the terms being discussed. Only when we’re all talking in the same “language”, WITH THE SAME UNDERSTANDING, can we truly compare experiences.

“Ping” is a tool or a utility that measures something known as “latency”. It is the latency, measured in milliseconds that we’re truly discussing. The process of measuring latency is known as checking the “ping time” – the length of time it takes to send a packet and get a response. So, although incorrectly used, it has generally become acceptable to refer to latency as ping.

The many of you who have been around awhile know that ping, alone, is not the TOTAL indicator for acceptable game play. Many of us have seen the opponent who was there as you took your shot and suddenly was 50 feet away. Such situation, caused by “lag”, is often called “warping”. This can occur when packets collide at routers along the path from your location to the server’s location. Packets that collide have their information scrambled or become lost and need to be resent.

There are many factors, beyond the simple ping measurement, to be considered for online game play. In fact, a 200ms ping with no lag will allow better game play than a 50ms ping with reoccurring lags. And that lag, often is not the fault of the game server itself… rather its the fault of an overloaded network, faulty routers and the path that YOU have to take to get to the server.

My team’s server is in Texas because it brought our Washington State and Vancouver, BC teammates into a more reasonable playing realm than other locations had. Of course it impacted the remainder of us who preferred a Virginia location. And our own CanadianKid, out of Ottawa, has simply learned to adjust his lead times. Our game server choice was selected for our Clan’s membership… as I’m sure others have selected theirs. We found a location that fit best for our member demographics.

Changing the average ping differential from 75 to 50 will result in a difference of 1/10th of ¼ of a single second. Considering that the average human’s reaction time is 250ms, I’m just not sure it amounts a meaningful change.

When we’ve changed the average ping differential and the same “symptoms” exist, what comes next? Will we then limit the average number of hops for each player? Perhaps we mandate a geographical cordoning system that becomes smaller and smaller until there’s no one left to play with. It has been mentioned that TWL could provide a “central server”… but I have to then question, CENTRAL TO WHO… will there then exist those who are “geographically privileged?”!

TWL has established a set of rules that seeks to “level” the play. They’ve done that by instituting a modest ping rule and have equally done so with their 3-2 server rule. The Clans who are commenting here are demanding that “it must be fair”. I have to question, “fair to who?” Because we currently seek to chastise 666 in these discussions, a clan who might well be considered “geographically isolated”, I will take the liberty to use them as an example. EVERY clan they challenge has a server that is less favorable to them than their own. That cannot typically be said for the remainder of us. So how, then, can we callously point and call them out when they utilize the very rule that is in place to introduce a level of “fairness” in our league? In fact, as they utilize the “fairness” rule, the remainder counter with the “I don’t have to challenge you rule” …

… which forces me to question, “Who is the REAL villain here?”


(These comments are "solely" mine and do not necessarily reflect the attitude of the remainder of my clanmates who were NOT consulted prior to my offering of MY OPINION)

What's up people. I think anything under 150 ping is fair game. Lets make that the rule.

SKUNKBREW(666)

Originally posted by: -|SS|-Gotcha

TWL has established a set of rules that seeks to “level” the play. They’ve done that by instituting a modest ping rule and have equally done so with their 3-2 server rule. The Clans who are commenting here are demanding that “it must be fair”. I have to question, “fair to who?” Because we currently seek to chastise 666 in these discussions, a clan who might well be considered “geographically isolated”, I will take the liberty to use them as an example. EVERY clan they challenge has a server that is less favorable to them than their own. That cannot typically be said for the remainder of us. So how, then, can we callously point and call them out when they utilize the very rule that is in place to introduce a level of “fairness” in our league? In fact, as they utilize the “fairness” rule, the remainder counter with the “I don’t have to challenge you rule” …

Gotcha-

Somehow I knew a lengthy response was coming from your way .....I appreciate the time/thought put into your post, but I feel you formed an opinion (not your fault of course) without all the facts. You are correct when you say TWL established a set of rules to "level" the play, by instituting a ping rule. However, for one, the ping rule that exists is behind the rules that exist for each other competitive ladder/league within twl. ( +/-50 is what it is for all others) One common thread Ive noticed with the shrub ladder is that its been slow to implement change to keep up with the rest of the league. Much of it mostly to do with the small amount of participation compared to other ladders. Although a small example, the ping rule is one such example.

Bottom line, if a teams average ping is 25, and their opponents average ping is 100, there is an enormous difference and that team basically is starting with a handicap from the start of the match. Teamwarfare always supports sportsmanlike conduct and and a general attitude to help others in the league so that they may compete at a common level and in as fair of a playing field as possible. (666) has every right to adhere to the ping rule as laid out in the rules, however, I beleive they've been pointed/single out in this thread because of their apparent unwillingness to work with other teams to seek out a more "level" playing field with the attitude of "your pings bad? tough, suck it up and deal with it", this attitude is counterproductive and works against everything this league is here for and works towards. I've heard the same complaints from many people Ive known in this ladder from several different clans, so this cannot be mere coincidence. If you're playing a match, and the other team is clearly pinging much higher and they ask, "hey can we find another server that we all get a better connection to" why not at least explore the possibility and at least help them out?

Will lowering the average ping rule affect things much? Not sure, maybe maybe not, we'll find out when/if it happens. That being said, if you're in a match, and the pings seem that out of wack, dont start, ask to move, if the other team is unwilling, and you truly have issue with the numbers, find an admin such as myself, and ask him to intervene and make a decision.

DURING THE X AND ASF SCRIMS, THE PINGS WERE WITHIN THE ACCEPTABLE LIMIT. ONLY ONE 666 PLAYER HAS LOW PING IN 666 SERVER (UPTA 20 TO 30'S) REST IS 50+. IF THE PINGS FALL WITHIN ACCEPTABLE PERAMETERS WHY MOVE THE SERVER LOCATION? WE HAVE ALWAYS AGREED TO THE 3 AT HOME AND AT THEIR SERVER CONCEPT. SO MAYBE WE SHOULD GET THE FACTS STRAIGHT?

I say a central server is the best way to go either way. It evens out competition abit. That match vs (666) they played at our server was fairly even most of our team is from the east coast except maybe 4 players. 1 west coast and maybe 3 central. I didn't have an argument about playing on their server. I went and I played. The only reason I pinged out in rounds 4 and 5 for the entire round was because of my connection it's messed up. When we played at 666's server we did ping high but played anyway. Hell before they were even in twl we faced them there and beat them. Ping can become a factor in many cases. But sometimes you can even out play the better pinging team. Hopefully I get my connection fixed soon so an easy win like that doesn't slip away again. But away as I was saying try to use a more centralized server. If that doesn't work play on each others server between every one or 2 rounds and it should work out either way.

I dont think we have had a Canadians opinion!

As someone living just a little north of Toronto I have to route threw toronto to get to most servers... this means 80% of servers I ping over 70 to 110 on. There are a few servers that some how meet my needs (ie the ICE server) were I get a 40 ping.
But when it comes to servers based on the west coast, I tend to get 100 to 150 ping. This is not fair when I meet up with some guy who has a 20 ping.

I also think that if we are going to make this a rule, or if we are going to change something. We should not inclued Annomolys. Last thing we need is clans who's server will be affected by this rule taking in a few people who ping 150 on there servers so they can change there average ping with an annomoly. I think if a clan has 5 pings of say 20-40 and has one guy with 150 ping that the person with the 150 ping should be ruled out of the equation.

My question is ,
why are clans complaining about ping after they play the match? I personally have invited clans in the ladder to come and scrim us before the matches. 666 members always check out the ping on the opponents server also , so we know what to expect. While we are happy playing on our server, if another clan has a gripe , why not work out the server details BEFORE the match, instead of complaining after. While we generally talk alot of smack and really detest whining, you may find 666 quite a bit more diplomatic if you actually make an attempt by visiting our forums and open lines of communication. We talk smack to eachother as much as we do to opponents but if you want to deal diplomatically in a "manly" manner instead of coming here and whining after the fact , we will view your concerns appropriately....err...right Imp?

mmm we did told you we had two servers in texas you wanted nothing to do with them said 'you challenged us means we play on our server'

I will grant that 666's "rant posts" aren't likely to influence a general feeling of good will. We've seen such rantings from other highly ranked clans in the past. But conflicts of personality aren't the issue. Fairness of play, ACROSS THE BOARD, is what we seek. If I use your server, you should use mine [and I'll agree - within limits]. The tough question is what to do when compromise between the competing parties fails. A single chosen server will ALWAYS be at the detriment of some clan. It could be defended by stating, "Come to agreement amongst yourselves or you'll use the TWL sanctioned server."

The positive to be taken from these posts is that we're willing to suggest there is a problem, attempt to define it and banter fair alternatives. That we participate in this process shows our determination to better our own TWL ladders.

In the spirit of this process, I offer one such alternative. Rather than a single "sanctioned" server choice, lets see if we can offer two or three. Perhaps a Chicago, a Texas and a Virginia set of servers. When unresolved server issues arise and the TWL Admin is summoned, a random selection is made as to the server which will be utilized (based upon that night's availability). That, at the least, throws some variance into the mix. Otherwise we might find ourselves with a Chicago Assassins Clan that will never compromise for they know that the alternate location is also in Chicago.

If such an idea is thought to have merit, either as offered or as some similar variation, I would be willing to discuss with my -|SS|- clanmates the idea of offering the whole of our server (located in Dallas, TX) for the express access and use by TWL staff as an alternate game location. Obviously, we would want to reserve for our own use two or three nights for our own practice, scrims and match play.

If enough of us were to pool our non-use nights, we might just find ourselves in the position of having given something more to the game... and to have given TWL a fair method of influencing "sportsmanship and fair play".

(Hotniks... I apologize for the length. I don't know how to express myself on "apparently" important subjects, any other way.)

Originally posted by: -|SS|-Gotcha


(Hotniks... I apologize for the length. I don't know how to express myself on "apparently" important subjects, any other way.)

lol, no need to apologize....that was just a friendly stab b/c its been awhile since I've gotten to read the "gotcha" size posts I was accostomed to back in my -|SS|- days

Yes, I agree that the -/+ for ping averages should be in a different range. A reasonable solution is lowering it to about 40-50, I think 35 is too low, because then it would lead to deadend solutions which would just result in automatic rescheduling due to no server to play in.

leet1 your texas servers blow for me just as ours does for you. If you have a problem with our server , then I think the onys is on you to find a suitable one for us to ping evenly on.

I don't think you'll find one but if you did we would gladly play on it .

Offering 2 of your servers doesn't cut it if its the same issue in reverse. Find a nuetral one that offers both teams even ping.

*onus (onys)

Here's the thing. When you sign up to play on the TWL ladders you know you are going to play other teams from across NA. Of course you want to have a nice ping on a server that you are paying for. I find no fault in that what so ever. If you are renting a server just for your clan to use to play internally on and what not then set it up at your house for all I care. But if you know that matches for other ppl from all over the continent are gonna "have" to be played on your server, then you should take that into consideration as well. I meen, I might could rent a server in Miami. Lets play three rounds there. Most of my clan would ping very well there. But thats just my clan. How do you think a person from Oregon or Washington would ping there? It is just common sense guys. Why not try and find something in Mineappolis or anywhere a little more centralized. As we all know the first 2 rounds are always played on the higher ranked teams server and I have no problem with that. In fact as I know most clans do, you just play one server. The higher ranked teams. This is done out of courtesy and to save the trouble of having to change servers in the middle of a match. We all know and do this if I'm not mistaken. When you get to a point where you are having to swap servers in the middle of the match then something is wrong. As we all know shrub doesnt keep count of ping like osp does. So if your gonna get an avg, you need a man with a calculator on the ball b4 the match. I have never played in an osp match where the ping difference was more that 35. Never. Most of the time is is 20 or less. That is why I am making such a big deal out of this. I dont want to push my server off on anyone when I am speaking badly of yours. All Im looking for is a fair fight. You pick a server. Somewhere where east coast guys and west coast guys ping roughly the same and I promise you will never hear a peep outta me again about ping. Not 2 rounds on my server where you guys ping badly and 3 rounds on your server where my guys ping badly If we lose to you I'll congratulate you on the win and know we got beat by a better team. Not by a team with a huge ping advantage.

I still don't buy it Anikan. I think people are just going to have to admit 666 is a kick ass clan. We sweated haing to play on a few servers where our pings sucked but we didn't go and complain because the servers were within TWL guide lines.

If the rule is changed to a lower ping maybe thats ok but I think if there is any change it should be that the clan who has a problem should have to find a server that evens out the ping while not putting the clan they have a problem with at a disadvantage.

I think anything under 100 is good to play with. :o
I have a little over 100 on my clan's server, but I'm still able to kill as much as, if not more, than people who have great pings. It's sometimes not always about ping, as it is with skill. Sure, playing with 100 vs a dude with 20 is unfair, but he can't kill you all the time.
If you have to complain about slow bullets, do it on a euro server, or try playing through my ISP. Often times my bullets don't even enter the server, regardless of my ping. And I have cable.

I think drastic ping restrictions would be more likely to hurt than to help. If it's +/- 35, there would have to be people around 20 on either team, and then the rest must be around 50. What if there are people who have a higher ping, but they want to play? What they were you main guns and the only people with good pings on your team are semi-skilled? You'd probably be screwed.
I think +/- 75 is good, since it would include people well below it, and people around 100.
Post edited by {TBA}Mary-Poppins at 9/3/2004 9:40:01 AM

Originally posted by: elite 1
mmm we did told you we had two servers in texas you wanted nothing to do with them said 'you challenged us means we play on our server'

TEXAS IS NOT CENTRAL TO A NORTHERN CLAN. NORTH/SOUTH MATTERS TOO. CALI WOULD BE A CENTRAL SERVER TO US.

i think skunk brew has no idea what hes talking about, if you have a 150 ping vs 20 ping, the 20 ping will win 99 out of 100 times.The rule should be, +/-40, the only reason you 666 guys are worried is b/c you know you're ping raping everyone that plays on your server, awwww, so you's might have to get a more centralized one that most of your 10 pingers get 40, don't cry about it, be men and play, atleast you'll know your playing teams fairly without ping raping them

Thats where you r wrong rhyknow, we are not worried. Even if the differentiial changes it won't affect our skill.

it is not us that have a problem , its you guys.

If the differential is +/- 75 0r +/- 2 ,you guys are the one with the complaint.

Heres the rules:

TWL will be using the 75+/- ping ave rule. If a teams total ping ave is higher than 75+/- more than the other teams ave ping another server "is recommended". If one teams server does not have more than a 75+/- ping ave between teams, that server is to be used. If both teams servers have more than 75+/- ping between teams...either another server needs to be used or both teams agree to use the servers they have at there disposal. Twl will not get involved in server situations...teams have plenty of opportunity to post server ips in "match comms" test them out and discuss servers well before match time.

So lets say its changed to 35 and your team is outside of that range. Chances are we will be outside of that range on your server too.

Originally posted by: {TBA}Mary-Poppins
I think anything under 100 is good to play with. :o
I have a little over 100 on my clan's server, but I'm still able to kill as much as, if not more, than people who have great pings. It's sometimes not always about ping, as it is with skill. Sure, playing with 100 vs a dude with 20 is unfair, but he can't kill you all the time.
If you have to complain about slow bullets, do it on a euro server, or try playing through my ISP. Often times my bullets don't even enter the server, regardless of my ping. And I have cable.

I think drastic ping restrictions would be more likely to hurt than to help. If it's +/- 35, there would have to be people around 20 on either team, and then the rest must be around 50. What if there are people who have a higher ping, but they want to play? What they were you main guns and the only people with good pings on your team are semi-skilled? You'd probably be screwed.
I think +/- 75 is good, since it would include people well below it, and people around 100.

Mary, this is not about clans having an avg 35 ping. It's about when you add all the players on one sides ping together and then adding the other teams pings together; the difference should be less than 35. It's is not about one man pinging 112 and a man on the other side pinging 20. My entire team during a scrim a 100+ ping average on their server. Whilest they had one man with a 100 ping to help make them look good. Upta was like 27, Imp 30's, and everyone else was less than 60. I honestly don't care what you do with your server 666, we will never play on it. I'd like to see a more fair ping ruling though.

Originally posted by: Hotniks

Originally posted by: -|SS|-Gotcha

TWL has established a set of rules that seeks to “level” the play. They’ve done that by instituting a modest ping rule and have equally done so with their 3-2 server rule. The Clans who are commenting here are demanding that “it must be fair”. I have to question, “fair to who?” Because we currently seek to chastise 666 in these discussions, a clan who might well be considered “geographically isolated”, I will take the liberty to use them as an example. EVERY clan they challenge has a server that is less favorable to them than their own. That cannot typically be said for the remainder of us. So how, then, can we callously point and call them out when they utilize the very rule that is in place to introduce a level of “fairness” in our league? In fact, as they utilize the “fairness” rule, the remainder counter with the “I don’t have to challenge you rule” …

Gotcha-

Somehow I knew a lengthy response was coming from your way .....I appreciate the time/thought put into your post, but I feel you formed an opinion (not your fault of course) without all the facts. You are correct when you say TWL established a set of rules to "level" the play, by instituting a ping rule. However, for one, the ping rule that exists is behind the rules that exist for each other competitive ladder/league within twl. ( +/-50 is what it is for all others) One common thread Ive noticed with the shrub ladder is that its been slow to implement change to keep up with the rest of the league. Much of it mostly to do with the small amount of participation compared to other ladders. Although a small example, the ping rule is one such example.

Bottom line, if a teams average ping is 25, and their opponents average ping is 100, there is an enormous difference and that team basically is starting with a handicap from the start of the match. Teamwarfare always supports sportsmanlike conduct and and a general attitude to help others in the league so that they may compete at a common level and in as fair of a playing field as possible. (666) has every right to adhere to the ping rule as laid out in the rules, however, I beleive they've been pointed/single out in this thread because of their apparent unwillingness to work with other teams to seek out a more "level" playing field with the attitude of "your pings bad? tough, suck it up and deal with it", this attitude is counterproductive and works against everything this league is here for and works towards. I've heard the same complaints from many people Ive known in this ladder from several different clans, so this cannot be mere coincidence. If you're playing a match, and the other team is clearly pinging much higher and they ask, "hey can we find another server that we all get a better connection to" why not at least explore the possibility and at least help them out?

Will lowering the average ping rule affect things much? Not sure, maybe maybe not, we'll find out when/if it happens. That being said, if you're in a match, and the pings seem that out of wack, dont start, ask to move, if the other team is unwilling, and you truly have issue with the numbers, find an admin such as myself, and ask him to intervene and make a decision.

First of all , if you ping bad on our server more than likely we don't have great ping on your server and therefore we should we agree to play only on your server. That is unfair to us.

If its 50 for all other RTCW then change it to 50 for this ladder. If you change it to 35 its possible we may likely end up with a stalemate. You don't ping well on our server and we don't ping well on yours.

Now that 666 has joned OSP , again we will have to work our way up the ladder challengeing other teams that ping better than us. I'm stating this now so pay attention.