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Ideas on how to *really* nail the cheaters...

Historical capture recovered from the Wayback Machine · captured 2005-03-13 · 41 posts
Johnny Bravo
TWL Member
2004-12-18 21:47
The biggest trouble I see with 'catching' on-line hackers, is that you are not really catching them. You are only catching their alias. Their tags and nick are shamed, their IP and ID's are banned.

How hard do you really think it is to get a new IP, new ID's, new nick, and new clan?

We're just in Beta so it's not worth it, but for the alpha clans who are a little more serious about competition, would TWL ever consider verifying real-life identity for competition registration?

Through physical address, driver's license # or something similar? In this way, if so-and-so is caught hacking, there is a real-life person behind the nick that is caught, not just a shell of an electronic figment.

Hacking instances are low, maybe one-two alpha players caught a month as of TWL's cracking down lately, but what guarantee do we have that those players aren't already back in the pool under a new nick?

If you could identify our nicks with real-life identities, people might take a little more pride in their skills. I certainly believe that the anonymity is causing havoc.

I understand there would have to be a processing fee for this registration (one would have to send a letter to the physical address with some sort of registration code). I know by address is silly - you can just have the letter sent to your buddy's house. And I know social security number is a little extreme. Any ideas?
Digm
Competition StaffLead 3v3 AdminEnemy Territory
2004-12-18 22:30
I wouldn't submit my driver's license in order to play...


... and I work here
-p-Dis
Aliased n00b
2004-12-19 00:25
Die cheaters, die.
Teh_reyalP
TWL Member
2004-12-19 00:53
Drivers licenses are right out, since a good portion of TWLs membership are too young to have them. TWL is also international, so no one nation specific ID would work. Dealing with the various nations privacy laws (many of which are very strict about getting personal information from minors), and ensuring that sensitive information was secure would also be a significant burden on TWL. Charging a fee, even if it was fairly small, would greatly reduce membership. It's not just the money, but the inconvenience, especially for minors and international members.

The simplest way I see to deal with it would be to charge a nominal fee to register your GUID, and give server admins and leagues the options of only allowing registered GUIDs. This would essentially make it like games where you have to buy a new CD if you get banned. But it still suffers from the problems mentioned above, and it isn't clear how much cheaters would be willing to pay for new GUIDs.
Cheeler
Competition StaffLeague AdminEnemy Territory
2004-12-19 01:46
Charging enough to curb cheating would probably result in alot of people dropping because they don't want to pay for a free game.

Another option could be a team of match observers that would show up to matches on request of one of the teams. TWL's CoD division used this when it first came out. It would take alot of people, though, given the size of the league and the fact that they're probably also going to be playing in the league, too.

Blackout
TWL Member
2004-12-19 02:54
Just get into yelling matches with them on forums.

That always fixes the problem!
_willis
TeamWarfare Vet
2004-12-19 12:18
DNA check! although it didn't own OJ Simpson... oh wait that was due to a dumb jury.
GREASEGUN
Competition StaffLeague AdminEnemy Territory
2004-12-19 18:41
"Hacking instances are low, maybe one-two alpha players caught a month as of TWL's cracking down lately, but what guarantee do we have that those players aren't already back in the pool under a new nick? "

What Alpha players have been caught cheating?
Disco is alpha I guess but I don't recall any others and definitely not 2 a month, even if you call smurfing hacking.
Are you talking about other games?

Post edited by GREASEGUN at 12/19/2004 6:42:05 PM
s0ma
TWL Member
2004-12-21 16:16
fingerprint scan to readyup imo.
Skel
TWL Member
2004-12-21 18:01
two words: urine samples

thems performance enhancing drugs is a huge issue in the et community.

damn cheaters! damn you all to hell!!!!
Johnny Bravo
TWL Member
2004-12-21 19:04
Originally posted by: GREASEGUN
"Hacking instances are low, maybe one-two alpha players caught a month as of TWL's cracking down lately, but what guarantee do we have that those players aren't already back in the pool under a new nick? "

What Alpha players have been caught cheating?
Disco is alpha I guess but I don't recall any others and definitely not 2 a month, even if you call smurfing hacking.
Are you talking about other games?


Whoops, I thought they were alpha but I chcked and they were not.

Touch of Slow Motion
Disko of Dead Penguins
Lavosity in Professionals from another clan
K!lla from my clna
Sinner Revolution 'Blind'
Velocity

Also hear awhile back some member from Left clan who no longer participates in TWL?

Someone made a good point in another thread, if we've caught this many in a 1-2 months time span then there are probably more under the surface we haven't discovered yet. I like the purchasing GUID idea - it will at least stop the kiddies without credit cards from hacking lol

I am happy about TWL's new policy. Pub servers have already had better gameplay because of TWL ruling. I think it's a refutable point that TWL players have hacked in the past in pubs 'just to blow off steam' but at the cost of the quality of play for the other players.

I know we will now be actively looking for evidence of hacking during our pub play. Before TWL's latest policy, most people would get on your server, say 'F@#%^ you so what if I'm hacking!!'... lol
Post edited by Johnny Bravo at 12/21/2004 7:07:29 PM
-Punk
TWL Member
2004-12-21 20:33
well, not to be a negative nancy, but i know i personally will not pay to register my GUID. If it comes down to paying for a free game, then i wont be taking part in TWL. Im sure some others may do the same. As far as this whole thing is going, I think w/e TWL is doing now is working decently. By tossing these guys out, anyone else around hacking has gotto be gettin somewhat of an idea that u arent welcome here. The only other thing i can think of is maybe permanent bans for even being caught hacking in pubs. They were doing something similar at school about weed and once word got around trafficing stoped in school for a good amount of time. It became an issue again once they decided to no longer enforce it. So TWL, keep on keeping on and the more hackers caught = the better.
//Broken
TWL Member
2004-12-21 22:55
the good players wont pay, it's a stupid way to kill off the community imo since half will prolly be either too young or too broke to do that. it will make the leetest pass up TWL and then BETA CAN RULE!!!
$t0rM
TeamWarfare Vet
2004-12-22 00:35
Dead Penguin never played in TWL Alpha and we certainly wouldn't of belonged there if we did.
longduckdong
TWL Member
2004-12-22 00:51
Based on what I have seen from TWL over the past several years, I don't think they would ever go for a pay model. Their emphasis has always been on a melding of community and competition. I suppose if you were to make a continuum, Cal would be at one end for competition, STA on the opposite end for community, and TWL would be in the middle, leaning slightly more toward CAL's side. CAL is probably going pay to play. I spoke with someone high up one day in TWL recently and I just don't see that happening here.

The best way to deal with cheaters is YOU!!!! Don't download cheats, don't use them, report people who do use them.
ND80
Competition DirectorSenior OperationsTWL Contributor
2004-12-22 08:27
TWL has absolutely ZERO plans on going to any pay for play set up.

ND80
TeamWarfare Competition Director for Enemy Territory, RTCW, Counter Strike, Urban Terror, Madden 2005, Dawn of War, Rome:Total War
demonix
TWL Member
2004-12-23 13:33
How about your credit card number? That'll work...
b_tch_!
TWL Member
2004-12-23 15:24
no, credit card number will not work, as for the reason stated before that mayny of the players on teams are not old enough for drivers licenses, and most cannot get credit cards. therefore, no
Raden1911
I like to beat dead horses.
2004-12-23 16:40
Originally posted by: longduckdong
The best way to deal with cheaters is YOU!!!! Don't download cheats, don't use them, report people who do use them.
|M|ChrisPiss
TWL Member
2004-12-23 16:50
i realize this aint the correct forum and will check out bani's
but i've installed software lately that calculates a serial number
based on a computer id.

i wonder if this could be implemented or off mac address or whatever.
seems to me while someone could still download a cheat, as soon as they are caught,
that's it. guid can't change, doesn't matter what ip they use.

sure, mac addy could be changed, but that takes a bit more brains then simply
changing guid, or ip.

i think a main issue is the easily changing guid, so who cares if you are on a
master ban list, if you can wiggle out of it easily.

a constant unchanging guid would be more of a deterent.
|M|ChrisPiss
TWL Member
2004-12-23 17:06
not 5 minutes after i post i read this over at http://www.enemy-territory.com

Cheaters Beware! New Punkbuster Hardware Ban is out!

If you are a cheater, life just got a lot tougher for you.

The good folks over at evenbalance.com have now implemented their hardware ban feature for ET. In simple terms, your computer has a unique identifier that comes with your physical machine hardware. Punkbuster will now ban you using this number (you can't change it yourself without replacing your hard drive). Also, be warned that if you are caught cheating on ET, you will be automatically banned from all Punkbuster supported games even if you didn't cheat in those games at all!

" We use multiple private one-way hashes so that no serial number information for individual computers can be determined by admins or anyone else who may try to obtain this information from a Hardware GUID (and as always, no personal information of any kind is examined, stored or transmitted by PunkBuster). When players raise a violation that corresponds to hacking or interfering with PunkBuster's normal operation, we now (in addition to Global PB GUID bans) are Globally banning the new Hardware GUIDs across all games supported by PunkBuster (including games supported in the future). So punks who are determined to cheat so badly on PB-enabled servers that they try to hack PunkBuster may now need a new computer in addition to a new cdkey in order to return to PunkBuster servers. As with previous PB GUID Global bans, the new Hardware GUID bans are permanent and will not be lifted. As always, players who are affected by these Global bans will still be able to play on non-PB servers. Honest users should never "test" hacks that claim to interfere with PunkBuster. We have successfully tested this new feature set over the past few weeks for a few supported games and will be rolling it out to all supported games over the next few days and weeks. Additionally, PunkBuster servers will be updated to signify whether kicks for Global bans are for PB GUIDs or the new Hardware GUIDs."

For more info, visit http://www.evenbalance.com.
Threshold
Sexeh Bish
2004-12-23 18:49
Good Shit..

I posted this on ET-Center and Bani's site. I would be intrested in what the ETPRO's comments were on this and it's effectiveness.

Good catch Chris
|M|ChrisPiss
TWL Member
2004-12-23 20:07
hmm, can't seem to find this on evenbalance.
found something part of the announcement but it was from the summer but nothing ET specific.

all i wanna know is how to find the hardware guid and what the ban cmd is.
|M|NeO>
TWL Member
2004-12-24 10:32
my god just stop laggin my computer already pb
Cheeler
Competition StaffLeague AdminEnemy Territory
2004-12-25 00:47
Originally posted by: |M|ChrisPiss
hmm, can't seem to find this on evenbalance.
found something part of the announcement but it was from the summer but nothing ET specific.

all i wanna know is how to find the hardware guid and what the ban cmd is.


Info from here:
http://bani.anime.net/banimod/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5273

There's no ban command for admins - it's enabled to prevent people from hacking pb itself. If PB detects it, it prevents the user from using PB for any of their games. Bani says this has also been hacked, though, in that thread, so we're back to square 1.
=T|W=AK47
TWL Member
2005-01-17 17:07
Originally posted by: Johnny Bravo
The biggest trouble I see with 'catching' on-line hackers, is that you are not really catching them. You are only catching their alias. Their tags and nick are shamed, their IP and ID's are banned.

How hard do you really think it is to get a new IP, new ID's, new nick, and new clan?

We're just in Beta so it's not worth it, but for the alpha clans who are a little more serious about competition, would TWL ever consider verifying real-life identity for competition registration?

Through physical address, driver's license # or something similar? In this way, if so-and-so is caught hacking, there is a real-life person behind the nick that is caught, not just a shell of an electronic figment.

Hacking instances are low, maybe one-two alpha players caught a month as of TWL's cracking down lately, but what guarantee do we have that those players aren't already back in the pool under a new nick?

If you could identify our nicks with real-life identities, people might take a little more pride in their skills. I certainly believe that the anonymity is causing havoc.

I understand there would have to be a processing fee for this registration (one would have to send a letter to the physical address with some sort of registration code). I know by address is silly - you can just have the letter sent to your buddy's house. And I know social security number is a little extreme. Any ideas?


GOOD FUCKING GAME JOHNNY BRAVO
http://www.teamwarfare.com/forums/showthread.asp?forumid=40&threadid=183893

"Not only was he using an aimbot on a public server, but was also aliasing as another team's player.
Johnny's last known IP is 216.228.49.66."

what a pussy
Post edited by =T|W=AK47 at 1/17/2005 5:10:20 PM
Teh_reyalP
TWL Member
2005-01-17 17:15
ROFL, GG.
`butt
TWL Member
2005-01-17 21:02
wow dude nobody likes a hacker but you need to like shut the fuck up seriously some of this shit is way out there....... i mean your basically cutting competition to adults only and only loser adults play games in leagues i mean seriously..... and who the fuck would put there credit card in a league to play a game ?
=T|W=AK47
TWL Member
2005-01-17 21:44
Originally posted by: team@rape^butt
wow dude nobody likes a hacker but you need to like shut the fuck up seriously some of this shit is way out there....... i mean your basically cutting competition to adults only and only loser adults play games in leagues i mean seriously..... and who the fuck would put there credit card in a league to play a game ?


dude......fully read the thread before you post. this faggot got caught cheating and using someone else's name a month after making this thread (see my post 2 above this one), ironically about how we need to find a way to keep hackers out of the game. never liked his gayass in the first place, now it's justifiable.
-Xguy
TWL Member
2005-01-19 14:36
LOL, a long long time ago , in a league far far away, there was a game called tribes, the ladder was dominated by two clans, and every other clan that climbed up the ladder, would hit a wall at #3 , cause #1 #2 were simply unbeatable however they kept challenging eachother and switch position as the winner goes to #1 and the other drops to #2.
Until the shit hit the fan and those teenies got into it in real life (some lived in the same neighborhood) so they started turning on eachother, and ? lmao all the shit surfaced up and they starting showing screen shots of eachother and the ridiculus cheats most of them had, we were grossed out and quit that whole league at the time.

well here's my idea , most cheaters are usually young, you wanna argu that I'll discuss it in a different subject, anyhow back on track, let's offer an MX1000 and total TWL immunity for whom ever turnover and expose a bunch of cheaters that he knows for a fact they cheats cause they share the wealth togther, you know one of those kids is dying for an MX1000, I'll pay for it if TWL offers the immunity lmao
Post edited by -Xguy at 1/19/2005 2:38:38 PM
-p-Dis
Aliased n00b
2005-01-19 16:16
The biggest cheater in RTCW history was 30-something. ;p
-Xguy
TWL Member
2005-01-19 19:32
Originally posted by: Radea
The biggest cheater in RTCW history was 30-something. ;p

you mean the biggest "caught" cheater? right?
Bill@Bong-
TWL Member
2005-01-19 20:31
How about you just do ip bans from the twl page? i mean seriously, i have the money to buy guids, but i don't want to use it for a free cd key unless i was forced to if i wanted to stay in TWL, but then of course, everyone would go to CAL
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
http://www.amd-clan.com | Clan AMD's Homepage


detox
Competition StaffAnticheat AdminEnemy Territory
2005-01-20 12:53
Originally posted by: ][-Stoned-][
How about you just do ip bans from the twl page?


We do in many cases.
Post edited by detox at 1/21/2005 8:53:27 AM
|M|ChrisPiss
TWL Member
2005-01-20 13:30
Originally posted by: Radea
The biggest cheater in RTCW history was 30-something. ;p


you calling me old? i still wet the bed.
KittenPuncher
TWL Member
2005-01-20 13:57
xguy is on to something. Catching a cheat such that they get booted from twl is hard work, with no reward, cept maybe bragging rights but even then it's the competition staff to make the bag and you can't post a thread showing your proof of hax they have to be sent directly to the comp staff, so you can't even brag properly.

How about offering a reward (dunno about the mx1000) for the clan who is responsible for having an TWL league player or a player in the top 10 of any ladder banned for a hax violation from TWL and added to the PB master list?

I'd even offer to help triage the screenshots people submit if it sounds like too much work (too much work for a hax free twl? c'mon!)
Eclipse+
TWL Member
2005-01-20 17:08
...
__________________________________________________

#team-commies
http://irc.gamesurge.net
Teh_reyalP
TWL Member
2005-01-20 18:19
Originally posted by: KittenPuncher
xguy is on to something. Catching a cheat such that they get booted from twl is hard work, with no reward, cept maybe bragging rights but even then it's the competition staff to make the bag and you can't post a thread showing your proof of hax they have to be sent directly to the comp staff, so you can't even brag properly.

Can you say Witch Hunt ? I thought you could. If they did that, they would have to sort through all the forged logs etc. of people who tried to get the 'prize' by pretending to be someone else and cheating. In my experience, getting the scum out of the game is reward enough.

][-Stoned-][:
IP bans are not particularly effective in many cases. Most home users can get a new IP without much effort.
Zigg0
TWL Member
2005-01-20 20:44
Restart my cable modem... but yeah, its all too easy =/
Heated
TWL Member
2005-01-20 21:04
Didn't you guys know Johnny Bravo was caught hacking himself? ROFL. The irony of it all.