Merging 12 man and 16 Man into a 14 Man Ladder Vote

Well after lots of discussion we have decided to place a vote up. Seperate ballots are up. 1 for the 12-Man Tribes 2 ladder and 1 for the 16 man Tribes 2 ladder. This is a founder only, ladder specific vote - meaning only the founders from the specific ladder can vote for his team. This is to merge the 12 man and 16 man ladders into a 14 man ladder. Click the following link to be taken directly to the ballot :



TWL Ballot



We thank everyone for their patience. Team members get with your founders and have them vote the proper way for your team. I will be leaving the vote up for 2 weeks (May 9, 2002).



Thanks,

Janus

Janus
Teamwarfare Senior Operations Staff

If this vote were to pass, how will it effect current ranks?

you will die when I say, BACK TO THE FRONT!

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Go get my T2 soundpack here.

A message of for you.

Please god do not do this. You have 2 good ladders right now and most of the 16 man teams already have a 12 man team as well. It has taken to much time and effort to build a solid 16 man team for more guys to have to ride the pine.

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Originally posted by: Trem_r

If this vote were to pass, how will it effect current ranks?

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We've discussed this and came up with 3 choices (will look for more if everyone votes to merge).

1) drop the ladders, create the 14 and make it a sign up now type thing. (ladders do work themselves out

2) have a tournament where the winning team gets #1 and the 2nd place team get #2, etc etc

3) (the one that everyone favors) was a method I recommended:

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98 + 32 = 130 . (minus a couple duped teams).

advantage to the merged ladder is that we run parallel to base++

7 14

base, base++

advantage to #3 is (in a perfect world where #1 = #1 on both ladders :P) that everyone is put in a position where they are put in a spot against a team of equal skill that #1 would negate, and it doesn't take the weeks/months that #2 would take, it would be a swift movement, where 12 adds +2 to thier roster and 16 -2 to their roster.

a minor correction to MG. a coinflip is only to get the ball rolling.

heads 16 #1
tails 12 #1

if heads, 16 = #1 on 14
12 = #2 on 14

the way the rest of it will work out is 16 will be all odd (illustration below) and 12 is all even.

16 - 14
#1 - #1
#2 - #3
#3 - #5
#4 - #7
#5 - #9
...

12 - 14
#1 - #2
#2 - #4
#3 - #6
#4 - #8
#5 - #10
...

then a forced match would take place:

#1 vs #2
#3 vs #4
#5 vs #6
#7 vs #8
#9 vs #10
... vs ...

to take care of the dupes, if teamA is on both ladders, we will give them the higher rung and remomve them from the ladder they are ranked lower on, then do the merge.

This, IMO, is the best choice and allows for the ladder to hit the ground running and everyone stay at fairly equal skill level.

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If there some things that look like there should be a post above it, there should...I was replying to a post in the admin section :P.
Stinkfist
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Skeptics Annotated Bible

Call me old fasion but I do not think everything in tribes2 needs to be in line with base++

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Originally posted by: Big Daddy Rock

Please god do not do this. You have 2 good ladders right now and most of the 16 man teams already have a 12 man team as well. It has taken to much time and effort to build a solid 16 man team for more guys to have to ride the pine.

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if the teams are on both 12 and 16, wouldn't merging the 2 allow your team to focus on playing another ladder? like being on both 14 base and 14 base++ ? This could open up possibilities for more teams to join both ladders (base++ people join base and vice-versa). I know how my team will vote, but I for one am infavor of this move. It would mean more competition to the ladder (IMO).
Stinkfist
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Skeptics Annotated Bible

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Originally posted by: Big Daddy Rock

Call me old fasion but I do not think everything in tribes2 needs to be in line with base++

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I didn't say it had to be. All i was saying is that it would allow a team to focus on both ladders, without stretching their players too thin. .
Stinkfist
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Skeptics Annotated Bible

I know but this would almost "Force" teams to join the base++ ladder to get more matches. Right now if a 16 man ladder team wants to focus on the Base++ ladder they can drop the 12 man team but most of the developed tribes play on more then one ladder. I just think the master plan behind this is to get more Base++ teams and that is not the proper way to build the base++ ladder.

i really think you screwed this idea up by saying it was to bring base in line with base++. What you should have said was that it was being done to consolodate base competition in one ladder with a higher level of competition.

of course, the people on the 12 man ladder are never going to agree with this, so i don't see it as likely to pass.

Here's what I said in the other thread, and I'll say it here:

There are certain things which don't need to be voted on, especially when it's for the good of the community. Whether this is one of those things, I am not really sure.

However, I don't even need to look at the votes to know how this one is gonna turn out. Landslide against.

Too many people are nice and comfortable with how things are and won't want change. Hasn't it always been this way?

Saying that the reasoning behind this is to bring base competition in line with base++ competition is just silly. Screw that. Either do it for the good of the community, and DO IT, or leave well enough alone.

Had this in other thread and I guess it should go in here now..

We are on the 16 man ladder and have not had to play the same team twice. We have been on it for a YEAR, I see nothing wrong with it after you get into the top 25 you have non stop action and all the teams are active. I mean if you play one match every 10 days X 25 teams... Well that is a long damn time 250 days.

Changing it to a 14 man ladder will not do as much as you think because most of the teams on the 16 man ladder are already on the 12 man ladder. Leave it alone it will never die 25 teams is plenty to have a good ladder ask the base++ guys. Also it would suck for teams with solid 16 man teams because that is 2 more guys who do not get to play.. LONG LIVE ALL LADDERS!!!

Last thing I think it is to early to panic with the 16 man ladder the teams that are leaving the 16 man base ladder are going to Base++ they are not leaving because 16 is to many players. The teams that are leaving for base++ are not going to stay around and play on the 14 Man Base ladder and base++ teams are not going to come back to play on the 14 man base ladder either.

Be careful you could kill them both it is already a fickle community.

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Originally posted by: Big Daddy Rock

I know but this would almost "Force" teams to join the base++ ladder to get more matches. Right now if a 16 man ladder team wants to focus on the Base++ ladder they can drop the 12 man team but most of the developed tribes play on more then one ladder. I just think the master plan behind this is to get more Base++ teams and that is not the proper way to build the base++ ladder.

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no, the master plan was to consolidate the ladder because we're starting to get a lot...and some are getting out of hand (help me out here if i'm wrong pol, tris, etc).

putting them together wouldn't force anyone to join the 14 man ladder, it would actually allow for more scrims and to become better on 1 ladder, IMO.
Stinkfist
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Skeptics Annotated Bible

BDR:

You have a good point, however, in all practicality it won't work out that way. There is no way a team will go 250 days without playing the same team twice. It just won't happen.

The closer you get to the top of the ladder, and the more "stable" the ladder gets (teams are close to their "proper" rung) the more often you'll see teams playing each other repeatedly.

For Larger tribes Consolidation is a bad thing and maybe for smaller also. To have a good 16 man ladder team which has been the goal for most tribes Since T2 has come out. You need a membership of about 30 or more members you weed through them and try to put your best 16 on the field.

That leaves the 12 man ladder for your developing players to get some action on. If you want to go so far as to have a Training/Recruitment group of players to keep your tribe strong as you have membership turnover start a 7 man team and let them play on that.

It also works the other way start with 7-man work up to 12 man then go to 16 man. My thing is that 117 teams are on the 7 man ladder and most of those teams are probably looking to join the 12 man one day then the 16 man after that. Base++ is a great mod but is not for new tribes.

Right now the system is perfect and people are not being patient enough..

Here are the steps.
1.Start 7 Man base tribe
2.Move to 12 Man base
3.Move to 16 Man base
4.Master 16 Man base
5.Move to Base++

Base++ Sucked all the teams that made it past Step 4 and it was an early rush of teams now it is just going to take a little time no need to force the issue.

We are still working on step 4 it is just easier for a 7 man team to jump to 12 man then it would be to jump to 14 man and compete.

Again just my opinion from a guy who is doing it.

Yeah probably right banditman about the 250 days. More teams were on the ladder when we joined.

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Originally posted by: Big Daddy Rock

Changing it to a 14 man ladder will not do as much as you think because most of the teams on the 16 man ladder are already on the 12 man ladder.

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There are 85 teams on the 12 man ladder. if all of them joined the 14 man (big if) and if all the 16 man teams were also on 16 man, you'd end up with a ladder with 85 teams on it.

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Leave it alone it will never die 25 teams is plenty to have a good ladder ask the base++ guys.

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That's why War is constantly trying to get more people to join the ladder right? The problem with smaller ladders is that you can end up with large skill gaps. What keeps the ladders fun is for people to be able to play challenging matches often. either winning easily every game, or getting your ass kicked every game is what drives most teams off the ladder. With a larger ladder it's a lot easier to get the ladder to a point where everyone is able to play teams of their own skill level.

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Also it would suck for teams with solid 16 man teams because that is 2 more guys who do not get to play..

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What would really suck would be if you played 12 man but couldn't find another few recruits to bring your roster up, and as a result you had to drop out of competition on the larger ladder completely. These two reasons are why i predict that this vote is going to be stunninly voted down, despite the fact that in the long run it might be better.

Yes it would suck worse for the 12 man team that could not field a team Jsut..

hmmmmmmmmm

Janus
Teamwarfare Senior Operations Staff

I also will be sending a mass email out to ladder captains tonight making them aware of the vote

Janus
Teamwarfare Senior Operations Staff

Well first off I have to say I am still undecided on the merge.

Of all the T2 ladders the 12 man base is by far the most active big ladder. 7 man is just nuts so we wont go there.

We are currently on both. Having a tough run on 16 man once again due to player activity but and being 1-2 and rung 22 is nothing to brag about. Now for 12 man I cannot see any reason that the teams will vote to change to 14 man. Everyone on the 12 man ladder is happy and most had to work rather hard to get into the top 25. IF this does happen the whole what rung do we get thing will come into play and the 1 for 1 deal posted above wont work out without a ton of bitching.

Soooooo if it does why not look at something like this.

Top 16 spots

12M 16M
1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10
11 12
13 14
15 16

Of course taking out the doubles will move things around.

After that it should be 3-1 in favor of 12 man. 17,18,19 12 man 20th 16 man etc.

There are 60 "active" teams on the 12 man while there are only roughly 20 on the 16 man ladder.

Although this will more then likly be a non issue since I have a feeling it will be shot down by the 12 man teams and might squeak by with the 16 man teams.

The other option would be to simply force 16 man to 14 man I know this is a bad way to do business BUT really where else do they have to go? OGL?........I know its by the community for the community blah blah blah but sometimes you just have to step up and say "This is how it is, deal with it".

Keep

It doesn't matter how many people vote Janus. It won't pass.

It's up to you to decide if it's in the best interests of the community. No amount of voting, debating or hand wringing over teams that might not field a squad will change that.

As Jsut already said, and I concurred, it is probably better for the long run to just do it and take the heat now, as opposed to waiting until things get even more ridiculous.

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Originally posted by: {NQP!}Keeper
The other option would be to simply force 16 man to 14 man I know this is a bad way to do business BUT really where else do they have to go? OGL?........I know its by the community for the community blah blah blah but sometimes you just have to step up and say "This is how it is, deal with it".

Keep

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I would have no problem switching to a 14 man scenario, but unless it involves merging ladders, there is no reason to switch. Quite simply, there isn't enough difference between 14 & 12 or between 14 & 16 to matter. Either put everyone on one ladder or leave it alone.

That was discussed as an option. My feeling are this : TWL was created for the community and the community decides. WE don't want to just FORCE you to do something you disagree with. Of course forcing this to happen will always remain an option. I feel that doing the vote is the first step to see where the community sits on this subject. We can always go from there. What I don't understand is how the vote won't pass if all teh teams want to do it?

Janus
Teamwarfare Senior Operations Staff

lol HOW ABOUT YOU KILL base ladders and move to the superior base++ 14man ladder.... DUH

<3

I don't think all the teams want to Do it. I know my team does not it is Just not the right time for this we already have enough of an overhaul going on with the base ++ ladder. For this to be fun the less things that are a pain in everyones butt the better. I think that when it was set up originally they had it right 7 man, 12 man and 16 man it has been proven that it works and is a good clan builder and you have 3 successful ladders. 7 man has (117), 12 man has (85), 16 man has (36) that is what it should look like.

I still do not understand why they did not use that format in Base++ because you already had something that was succesful in base for developing clans. 16 man base++ matches would have been just as much fun and you would of had that middle ground that it needs in a 12 man ladder. I think you are looking to adjust the wrong things. Base set-up with 3 ladders = proven success. Base++ setup with 7man and 14 man = hard to develop new teams that can be competitive.

edit was to separate the 2 paragraphs


Post edited by Big Daddy Rock at 4/25/2002 10:59:27 AM

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Originally posted by: Janus

That was discussed as an option. My feeling are this : TWL was created for the community and the community decides. WE don't want to just FORCE you to do something you disagree with. Of course forcing this to happen will always remain an option. I feel that doing the vote is the first step to see where the community sits on this subject. We can always go from there. What I don't understand is how the vote won't pass if all teh teams want to do it?

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you can't force people to move, but you can delete ladders. The choice of the team to join 14 man is theirs. the decision to consolodate the ladders is yours.

I think voting is nice, but i think that it's not going to pass, and you are going to end up with a 12 man base ladder and a 7 man base ladder. the way that 16 man is going, it'll be down to under 20 teams in a month or two, and it will no longer factor into BDR's stepwise team motion grid.

Why would you want to get together a team of 16 people to compete on a ladder with 20 teams when you can get 14 and play on base++ (which the base people are leaving for), or just stay on 12 man with tons of teams.

i'm a little confused by your 'if all the teams want to do it' comment. I'm probably going to abstain, because PEN is dropping base tonight after our match with OUF, but if i were to vote i would vote in favour. However, if we actually had a good stable roster with more then 16 people (which we haven't of late) i would vote against. I see the biggest resistance coming from the 12 man teams though, who don't have the option of benching people, they have the infinately tougher job of finding people to join their team (for the most part, i'm sure there are some that would have no problem switching right now)

The best time to try and get everyone back on one ladder will be when they re-release tribes 2 won't T2 Fast Attack force you to start a new ladder anyway that everyone from Base++ guy's to Base guys will be looking to join? Just throwing that out it may not require a new ladder but it would seem like it is not going to be exactly like either ladder we have now. I could be wrong about this.

I would actually be for this. As our team will discuss when our founder comes around.

But:
Deciding the #1 positioning can be tough. Here are my ideas.
IMHO I don't think having a formula where the #1 team of 12 or 16 man get's top seed. Cause then the other team will be mad and you know other teams on those opposing ladders will be like, "What our #1 team doesn't deserve #1 spot on 14 man Base?!?!"
I suggest the following if we go w/ assigning a #1 team:
The #1 team on 12 man faces the #1 on 16 man in 1 match on a neutral server. They are to play 1 map w/ 12 people, 1 w/ 16 and 1 w/ 14. The order is to be chosen randomly on #'s. Then the overall winner is #1 of 14 man and the loser of that match heads to the #2 spot.
---OR----
You can just have everyone sign up in the end and not worry about the #1 spot. Competition will start putting people in their places. It would be like a new season so to speak. If you were a top team in the 12 and 16 man ladders. You should be able to work your way back up there. Sure it sounds unfair cause of all the work you put into getting there in 12/16. But... you should have no problem attaining that rank again. Half the fun if you ask me is getting there. I mean I would actually like to play -{ns}- again for a low rank spot because they are there (see 16 man startup by us some months back).

Basically I think it should be thought of as another season. Yeah I know this is in relation to my other post but in now way am I trying to push that. But the 12-16 man ladder seasons can come to a close. Now we all start new w/ random positions on the ladder. And we go from there. Sure some teams may start out at the top and lose their way out. But there is something for them to realize and learn there.
-You will now realize how much work you will have to put in to become a top team.

Basically I like the idea... but I'm sure MANY don't. Alot of people may not want to lose their "current rank" to start over. Again.. if you earned your rank up there... you will earn it again.

EN

God is Number #1 on both ladders so should be a close match

This is a great idea. Less ladders means more competition. More competition is more fun which means less teams dropping.

Several currently top 10 teams will be bumped back in rung, but in the end you will have a ladder with over 100 teams where many evenly matched matches take place. This can only be good for the longevity of both ladders, especially 16.

16 man teams who need to bench a few people should give their extras to 12 man teams who don't have enough. If you arn't playing regularily in matches, you arn't being much use. For the good of the community and for your own entertainment you should find a team that can use you, because they are out there I guarantee.

In the long run merging the ladders is definatly the right choice. Both are shrinking. Competition makes ladders grow.

Edit: The reason in the vote definatly shouldn't be "Purpose to switch in line with base++." This has nothing to do with base++. This should be (and is, imo) to bolster the competitive atmosphere of T2 base allowing receeding ladders a chance to thrive again.
Post edited by Forensic at 4/25/2002 11:30:58 AM

JUST DO IT!

Sorry Big Daddy, I hear you and understand you, but I like the idea of the merger for 2 reasons. 1st, despite base++, i do think 14man is a better size for T2. 2nd, i think it will strengthen Base, not weaken it by increasing the size of the base ladder. I don't see teams dropping because of adding 2 players.

however, if merged i think there should be a grace period of a month or two wher a team can show with 12 and play a 12v12 if necessary. this will allow recruitment to work.

as far as keeping all players busy, if you dont like base++, you still have 7man and arena ladders, you also have team hunters, siege etc. i think you can keep them busy if you need too. you could even run 2 7man squads if you wanted.

Well why not just start a 14 man Base Ladder and Let natural selection do the rest? My team would Drop the 12 man ladder and Join the 14 but would also stay active on the 16 man ladder as long as we could find somebody to play. You would have everybody jumping on this ladder to try and get a good rung and would probably have 50 teams on it out of the gate. This would give 12 man teams time to get up to speed and if all the competition went here it would be the primary ladder and 12 man teams would move when ready. I would say anyone that was left on the 12 man or 16 man ladder would be their because they wanted more matches but would also be on the 14.

Ok...
Now... this may get some flames.

But doing this can also improve and maybe help the ++ ladder grow a bit more. Remember we all play the same game... and we all play for the same reason here on TWL: Competition. Base may be able to solidify itself by combining and ++ now stands the chance of picking up a few more teams in their ladder. It's not about ++ vs. Base here. Although that tends to be the attitude that gets thrown around. This is about strengthening the T2 community here. See beyong the "They are trying to make us like ++". I'm not accusing everyone of this, but if you are thinking it. Please realize that this is a chance to improve. Imagine 90 Teams all competing on one ladder. There is such a diversity in talent on both ladders that it will be good all around.

I dunno.. I like the idea. This is just kinda my opinion and nor am I right or wrong. :D

EN

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Well why not just start a 14 man Base Ladder and Let natural selection do the rest?

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The last thing this game needs is an additional ladder.

If anything is to be done at all, it should be a merger.
Post edited by Vodalus at 4/25/2002 12:08:53 PM

or we could just throw out ctf ladders all together and everybody could join the siege ladder ;P

This sounds like a good thing.. We are looking to join Base++ cause we like the ladder size and the competition that is there...

If the 16 man and 12 man ladders' merged to ONE, we would DEFINATELY join the Base ladder.

Currently were on the 7man Base, and after 16 matches, we think were read to hang out at the bottom rungs of one of the larger ladders..

I think we all need to put our personal agendas aside and look at what this move will do for the community, I think it will be a POSITIVE thing in the long run.

You people should be thinking about later and not now. Who gives a h00t if you lose your rank. If you got there once you should be able to get there again. Think about later and how this would benefit the completion. 7 man is flourishing because of the amount of teams competing. I think this is good long term. Having more ladders is spreading teams and completion thin IMO.

I don't speak for RT, but I would heavily beat on our captains to come back to base if it were merged to 14.

More teams breed more competition and a more interesting environment.