Tired of IP Ruining Tribes?

TWL Member

2013-04-12 10:36

Yeah I am too. We all know that legalizing a cheat has lead to ridiculously over-powered CGs and almost impossible to kill HO shields. It sounds like a lot of people have thought about how to combat IP, and prevent it from ruining T2, but the only somewhat successful conclusion reached was to just legalize IP all together. Well I think that was a bad idea, but what's done is done right?

I don't know if anyone has considered this idea or not, but couldn't one just nerf the CG a bit at the mod-level? In other words, couldn't someone just look through zodd's awesome classic mod code and find the lines that control CG physics/parameters and just nerf it a bit? You don't want to make the CG a POS weapon, you just keep tweaking it a bit until you get it to how it was before IP was around in classic. You just nerf the CG to a low enough level where you would need IP to make it balanced with other weapons. IP in this case would not be a "cheat" like it was before, but a necessary script to make your CG competitive.

I don't know if this is possible, but I just thought I would throw the idea out there.

Basically you would:

1. nerf the cg at the mod-level
2. Re-release the mod with nerfed cg
3. Put new mod on all servers
4. Have everyone keep using IP like before, but now IP just
makes everyone's CG perform at the level it did b/f IP existed in classic mod

Benefits:

1. No more over-powered CGs
2. No more almost impossible to kill HO shields
3. Real Tribes balanced gameplay with O and D
4. Also, since IP supposedly helps even out the playing field b/t high and low pingers with the CG, you would also still have that benefit as well

Unless you like it the way it is. Just an idea though.
Post edited by triptofan at 4/12/2013 10:52:16 AM

--Gunther--

TeamWarfare Vet

2013-04-12 10:42

The ip shield era aka all these tourneys has taken away my love. EPack HO to da flag. But if you take it away alot of average players that sit on a hill with ip will be below average HO.

Raynes reign as admin was rained out by ip. CHEATS FOR EVERYONE!

g

Promethium-

TeamWarfare Vet

2013-04-12 10:57

this thread is so 2003.

_anthem

TWL Member

2013-04-12 11:00

Let's remove chainguns entirely and just not be able to kill anyone wearing an energy pack

StormcrowIV

TeamWarfare Vet

2013-04-12 11:42

If you nerf the CG, chasing fast FCs becomes next to impossible.

If anything, shield packs are what are most broken. This is hideously apparent just by looking at the values for shield strength between the classes. But keep in mind that shrikes are horribly balanced and the GL is just plain awful. After those more glaring faults, CG could be tweaked.

Hell, I'd almost rather see the massive number of CC glitches get fixed, or blasters, landspikes, and plasma turrets get tweaked so they don't NR every 3-5 shots before the CG gets a nerf.

Also, wouldn't this require everyone to DL and install a new T2 Classic? How long has it taken the community as a whole to download simple map packs?
Now you're expecting them to go through the trouble of redownloading and installing this game with all of its patches and packs and addons all over again, just for one alteration?

Redo the whole game or don't even bother. Start with shields and shrikes, then make the game work at a basic level (fucking CC glitches and NRs), then tweak for balance.

EDIT: Easy way to fix shield packs would be to reduce the amount of physical force imparted on shielded targets. This would make shield DJs much less effective which would help balance both shield HO and shield light capping.

At the same time, it would reward shield cappers who manage to get a run on the flag by reducing the effects of an MA on them during the approach. Higher difficulty/slower to set up = higher reward when contesting the LOF/HOF for the grab.

HOFing might be broken by this fix, however. Maybe make it so that mines still impart a lot of movement?
Post edited by StormcrowIV at 4/12/2013 11:48:31 AM

triptofan

TWL Member

2013-04-12 11:51

Originally posted by: StormcrowIV
If you nerf the CG, chasing fast FCs becomes next to impossible.

If anything, shield packs are what are most broken. This is hideously apparent just by looking at the values for shield strength between the classes. But keep in mind that shrikes are horribly balanced and the GL is just plain awful. After those more glaring faults, CG could be tweaked.

Hell, I'd almost rather see the massive number of CC glitches get fixed, or blasters, landspikes, and plasma turrets get tweaked so they don't NR every 3-5 shots before the CG gets a nerf.

Also, wouldn't this require everyone to DL and install a new T2 Classic? How long has it taken the community as a whole to download simple map packs?
Now you're expecting them to go through the trouble of redownloading and installing this game with all of its patches and packs and addons all over again, just for one alteration?

Redo the whole game or don't even bother. Start with shields and shrikes, then make the game work at a basic level (fucking CC glitches and NRs), then tweak for balance.

The shields aren't a problem. It's the shields with over-powered CGs that are the problem. HO shield was never as powerful of a position as it is today with IP. IP is what makes it so powerful.

Chasing was never really possible in T2 classic to begin with. You played T1 right? T1 was a little easier to chase FC's, I'll admit, but T2 classic never really allowed much for that from its creation.

If you want to make it like T1, then I would suggest lowering all player movement speeds and altering the CG (like I said above) in tandem. If shrikes are too fast as well, then you could lower those speeds too. That would allow for more effective chasing of FC's.

I would at least nerf the CG. It's way too powerful (beyond reason) in relation to other weapons in the game. You need to at least restore the original weapon balance that zodd created, at a minimum. I think that the CG alteration (in and of itself) is definitely worth re-releasing a mod that everyone has to d/l, bc IP totally ruins the game play with the CG levels currently.
Post edited by triptofan at 4/12/2013 11:56:14 AM

StormcrowIV

TeamWarfare Vet

2013-04-12 12:11

Nah, I never played T1.

I disagree that chasing isn't practical in Classic. Players like Astro-Lorf are great chasers, and I'm sure they'd disagree as well. Classic boosted CG strength and lowered its spread to counter the faster speeds of cappers. This is also why the GL got its huge boost in damage and splash range. Together, they make chasing very doable.

Take away the CG's strength, and all the defense has is the sniper rifle and the GL if a defender manages to get into a good chase above and behind the capper (unlikely). Both of those require invos to get, and that's a huge liability for a lot of maps. A great CG give a naked defender a chance at double DJing after a capper and stopping him.

Anytime you lower speeds, you're going to run into stiff opposition all around. Defenders will be inhibited by the same speed nerfs as the offense. Speed caps also dredge up horrible memories of base/variant in addition to lowering the skill ceiling for cappers. Even as a LOF, I prefer higher speeds because it's just more fun.

Slightly off-topic:
Shrikes are broken due to its turning radius (pilot mode, yo), shield strength, forgiving nature (speed, ease of movement, and acceleration), and glitchy hitbox (it's a few meters ahead of where the shrike appears, even with IP-this means it rams earlier than it appears it should and MAMDs are tricky to hit).

Tribes is built on the mechanic that high speed requires planning and commitment via routes or good terrain management. This means that being in the right place at the right speed requires a great deal of commitment to an action (like hitting the flag on offense or chasing on defense), and is very difficult to master. Doing that consistently is the mark of a great player.
The shrike just pisses all over that. It also has a giant fucking sensor, which lights up all the IFFs and deployable invos for easy picking by D snipers and spamming HO, respectively.

Jazzz

TWL Member

2013-04-12 12:19

this thread

is going places

J
Post edited by Jazzz at 4/12/2013 12:19:57 PM

triptofan

TWL Member

2013-04-12 12:28

Originally posted by: StormcrowIV
Nah, I never played T1.

I disagree that chasing isn't practical in Classic. Players like Astro-Lorf are great chasers, and I'm sure they'd disagree as well. Classic boosted CG strength and lowered its spread to counter the faster speeds of cappers. This is also why the GL got its huge boost in damage and splash range. Together, they make chasing very doable.

Take away the CG's strength, and all the defense has is the sniper rifle and the GL if a defender manages to get into a good chase above and behind the capper (unlikely). Both of those require invos to get, and that's a huge liability for a lot of maps. A great CG give a naked defender a chance at double DJing after a capper and stopping him.

Anytime you lower speeds, you're going to run into stiff opposition all around. Defenders will be inhibited by the same speed nerfs as the offense. Speed caps also dredge up horrible memories of base/variant in addition to lowering the skill ceiling for cappers. Even as a LOF, I prefer higher speeds because it's just more fun.

Slightly off-topic:
Shrikes are broken due to its turning radius (pilot mode, yo), shield strength, forgiving nature (speed, ease of movement, and acceleration), and glitchy hitbox (it's a few meters ahead of where the shrike appears, even with IP-this means it rams earlier than it appears it should and MAMDs are tricky to hit).

Tribes is built on the mechanic that high speed requires planning and commitment via routes or good terrain management. This means that being in the right place at the right speed requires a great deal of commitment to an action (like hitting the flag on offense or chasing on defense), and is very difficult to master. Doing that consistently is the mark of a great player.
The shrike just pisses all over that. It also has a giant fucking sensor, which lights up all the IFFs and deployable invos for easy picking by D snipers and spamming HO, respectively.

Well I guess it's a trade off then. You will lose some ability to chase by nerfing the CG, but most people don't chase FC's, they stay at home snipe FC's. Chasing really isn't that practical in T2 classic. I would rather stop the exploitation of HO shields with over-powered CGs than worry about how nerfing the CG would affect chasing.

People should be playing offense in other armor classes, not just HO shield. LD should also be able to reasonably kill HO shields that are spamming from hills. Also, LD pretty much exploit IP at home when LO come to attack. They barely even use any other weapon except the CG to mow them down, which is also horribly imbalanced. They should be using other weapons like GL and disc to combat LO, not just pure CG.

In Summary:

IP just makes CG the constant weapon of choice with almost any position outside of the base, and really ruins the overall weapon balance in the game. I think it's worth a mod-fix.

Julius*

serial experimentTeamWarfare Vet

2013-04-12 12:30

The first few months of defense turret were the best months of tribes.

-Berserker-

TWL Member

2013-04-12 13:06

tripto we really needed your summary after you just repeated yourself 10 times between this thread and the sperg effort thread.

triptofan

TWL Member

2013-04-12 13:11

Originally posted by: -Berserker-
tripto we really needed your summary after you just repeated yourself 10 times between this thread and the sperg effort thread.

Well it gets the point across doesn't it? Tough shit.

You don't have to read it if you don't want to.

projectile

TeamWarfare Vet

2013-04-12 13:26

as i've said before, legions actually has the best system for chaingun balance with their heat mechanic. You can lower damage of cg (or increase spread, but I hate introducing more randomness) the longer you fire it (making it less useful in dueling). Picking up speed will keep the chaingun cool, so you can chase at the same effectiveness of the old chaingun.

The other method is via reverse-falloff (where longer range shots do more damage), but I find this a bit less intuitive and more clunky.

The shield pack is also pretty ridiculous from a balance standpoint. It would be nice if there was more parity between energy and shield pack so that energy pack users aren't totally hosed in combat against shield packers.

triptofan

TWL Member

2013-04-12 13:54

Originally posted by: projectile
as i've said before, legions actually has the best system for chaingun balance with their heat mechanic. You can lower damage of cg (or increase spread, but I hate introducing more randomness) the longer you fire it (making it less useful in dueling). Picking up speed will keep the chaingun cool, so you can chase at the same effectiveness of the old chaingun.

The other method is via reverse-falloff (where longer range shots do more damage), but I find this a bit less intuitive and more clunky.

The shield pack is also pretty ridiculous from a balance standpoint. It would be nice if there was more parity between energy and shield pack so that energy pack users aren't totally hosed in combat against shield packers.

I don't know anything about how zodd's code is structured, but you might be able to just make the longer-range bullets register more easily than the shorter range ones. After all, IP is only really a major problem in short-range dueling situations.

Then I guess you could avoid that chasing issue there (somewhat).
Post edited by triptofan at 4/12/2013 1:57:42 PM

lghtspd

QWNED!

2013-04-12 14:08

GoHeels

Too LongTeamWarfare Vet

2013-04-12 14:53

Would it be possible to scale cg damage down as you do x damage in some time. That would discourage people from just chaining somebody down from 100 hp to zero but would remain useful for killing somebody with say 1/4-1/3 hp left

Halo2

TWL Member

2013-04-12 14:57

HO shield is fine, people should stop crying about it. If you have good aim, good cg, good shield control, you should be rewarded with extra survivability. Maybe try a dueling strategy that doesn't rely on sneaking up behind them with a shocklance and dying instantly to a mine disc.

projectile

TeamWarfare Vet

2013-04-12 15:03

Originally posted by: Halo2
HO shield is fine, people should stop crying about it. If you have good aim, good cg, good shield control, you should be rewarded with extra survivability. Maybe try a dueling strategy that doesn't rely on sneaking up behind them with a shocklance and dying instantly to a mine disc.

why is this even a thing

you're trying to fight an enemy with literally at least 5x your health carrying the same weapons as you (actually, usually they have a grenade launcher and you don't, so it's even worse). It is seriously the most unbalanced matchup i can possibly think of in any class based shooter, ever.

BIGSEX

TeamWarfare Vet

2013-04-12 15:04

But that's my favorite strategy and I should be rewarded for it

TribalWear

TeamWarfare Vet

2013-04-12 15:12

Originally posted by: Promethium-
this thread is so 2003.

sQu33ze

TeamWarfare Vet

2013-04-12 15:16

just make cg spread increase while shieldpack is on. gg

verve

TeamWarfare Vet

2013-04-12 15:44

CARRY CONCS. I don't see any LD even using their grenade key unless they're in spawn and spamming their blaster.

triptofan

TWL Member

2013-04-12 16:01

Originally posted by: verve
CARRY CONCS. I don't see any LD even using their grenade key unless they're in spawn and spamming their blaster.

You still have horrible odds of winning a duel with heavy shields in Light, even with concs.

Concs don't work very well on hills that are jagged (and most are). Plus they will just missle you or whore you down anyway. By the time the conc actually knocks the shield away (which is hard to do already), half or more of your HP will be gone from the damn CG.

It's the same situation with the elf too, but slightly better if you are sneaky (sometimes). Odds are still crap though.

Post edited by triptofan at 4/12/2013 4:01:57 PM

-Berserker-

TWL Member

2013-04-12 16:10

As a HO who shield packs and cg whores sometimes I can say, if you get one good conc off on me while I am setting up to spam you have effectively done a great job even if I end up killing you before you damage me much. Not only does it take a while to retrieve my dropped weapon and shield pack - if it is even worth it and didn't roll down a huge hill - but once my weapons are out of order I suck huge cockballs at everything.

Halo2

TWL Member

2013-04-12 16:44

Originally posted by: -Berserker-
As a HO who shield packs and cg whores sometimes I can say, if you get one good conc off on me while I am setting up to spam you have effectively done a great job even if I end up killing you before you damage me much. Not only does it take a while to retrieve my dropped weapon and shield pack - if it is even worth it and didn't roll down a huge hill - but once my weapons are out of order I suck huge cockballs at everything.

bind ur weapons to actual numbers. (1 for cg, 2 for disc etc.) using mousewheel or relying on the order is silly

triptofan

TWL Member

2013-04-12 17:01

Originally posted by: Halo2
Originally posted by: -Berserker-
As a HO who shield packs and cg whores sometimes I can say, if you get one good conc off on me while I am setting up to spam you have effectively done a great job even if I end up killing you before you damage me much. Not only does it take a while to retrieve my dropped weapon and shield pack - if it is even worth it and didn't roll down a huge hill - but once my weapons are out of order I suck huge cockballs at everything.

bind ur weapons to actual numbers. (1 for cg, 2 for disc etc.) using mousewheel or relying on the order is silly

Yes, and add to the HO shield problem more.

It's a good tip though, I gotta hand it to you.

StormcrowIV

TeamWarfare Vet

2013-04-12 17:01

Regardless, the consensus seems to be that LD have a single option to defeat HO. That to me tells me that everyone knows shield HO is imbalanced but just can't get over their cognitive dissonance and admit it.

But sure, concs work.

If you can place the conc on the target (it can be hard to aim with a 4 second fuse unless you're quite a distance away). And if the conc randomly decides to take the HO's pack and weapon away. And if it doesn't backfire and take the LD's pack and weapon away. And if the HO is dumb enough to stand there instead of simply DJing away during that 4 second fuse. So many things about conc combat rely on chance.

Oh, and you only have 5 concs.

Oh, and THEN you have to kill the HO that still has more health and weapon options than you.

Oh, and then there are usually more HO than LD, and HO killing is only one aspect of playing light defense.

Oh, and all of this is assuming you have invos to get these vital tools from. This is really important and often overlooked.

Post edited by StormcrowIV at 4/12/2013 5:03:55 PM

-Berserker-

TWL Member

2013-04-12 17:05

I am way too far down muscle memory lane to switch at this point. Plus I don't think that is really practical half the time. What if you are strafing left and want to switch to cg simultaneously? How can you keep your ring finger on the A button (to go left) and press 1 at the same time?
Post edited by -Berserker- at 4/12/2013 5:06:52 PM

Azimuthal

TWL Member

2013-04-12 17:05

the chaingun is not the issue.

the shield pack in this game is absolutely retarded.
this community seems to think that shield HO should be the best at long range combat, best at short range combat, best at indoor combat, best at outdoor combat, even best cappers on some maps.

shield ho can reach the enemy base far more quickly than the pack that is supposedly meant for maneuverability(ho epack) and they are not much slower than an LO or SJ LO because of the many dj's they can pull off, this is why you never see any light offense.

shield ho have the most devastating long-range offensive weapon and are literally immune at most times to the one defensive long-range weapon (laser rifle)

get rid of shield and defensive players won't feel so useless when they md an HO twice and do zero damage, and they can gradually wear down qfire spamming faggots that are at the edge of the map.

ho would take more skill, timing, and awareness perhaps but the defense wouldn't walk all over them like some shield HO are claiming.

Epack ho still have a huge health advantage and a wider variety of weapons, they also outnumber the LD that fight them.

shield pack is broken because:
(*)the stupid amount of survivability it gives
(*)epack HO can spend a full bar of energy to get the same kind of speed that a shield pack HO can get using 1/10th of their energy.
so they gain survivability/maneuverability at no cost whatsoever

Thaen

TeamWarfare Vet

2013-04-12 17:10

one md takes all shields down. can't ld use shield to counter? tibs used it pretty well as ld vs bottlecap.

triptofan

TWL Member

2013-04-12 17:19

Originally posted by: Thaen
one md takes all shields down. can't ld use shield to counter? tibs used it pretty well as ld vs bottlecap.

LD using shield against heavy shield works well on some maps. However, you still have the same problem with the concs on maps with jagged hills though. It's very difficult to kill a heavy shield in light shield when the hills are jagged b/c the only real effective weapons are disc and GL. You can't CG them to death well at all, unfortunately.

Also, you would have to dedicate that LD to playing shield LD as a position, so he can't play flag D at all pretty much. So you limit his flexibility in switching between flag LD and HO smashing LD (whatever you call it).
Post edited by triptofan at 4/12/2013 5:19:56 PM

Firepower!

TeamWarfare Vet

2013-04-12 17:31

Azimuthal

TWL Member

2013-04-12 17:46

Originally posted by: Thaen
one md takes all shields down. can't ld use shield to counter? tibs used it pretty well as ld vs bottlecap.

1 md takes shield down?
bullshit dude

--Gunther--

TeamWarfare Vet

2013-04-12 18:01

Originally posted by: Julius*
The first few months of defense turret were the best months of tribes.

TheWedge

creamy goodness

2013-04-12 21:25

Originally posted by: -Berserker-
As a HO who shield packs and cg whores sometimes I can say, if you get one good conc off on me while I am setting up to spam you have effectively done a great job even if I end up killing you before you damage me much. Not only does it take a while to retrieve my dropped weapon and shield pack - if it is even worth it and didn't roll down a huge hill - but once my weapons are out of order I suck huge cockballs at everything.

Amen.

sQu33ze

TeamWarfare Vet

2013-04-12 22:23

i carry my own concs as HO, so if u just dance around long enuf ill conc myself and probably ctrl k.

Red Fraction1

TeamWarfare Vet

2013-04-12 22:39

Originally posted by: triptofan
Yeah I am too. We all know that legalizing a cheat has lead to ridiculously over-powered CGs and almost impossible to kill HO shields. It sounds like a lot of people have thought about how to combat IP, and prevent it from ruining T2, but the only somewhat successful conclusion reached was to just legalize IP all together. Well I think that was a bad idea, but what's done is done right?

I don't know if anyone has considered this idea or not, but couldn't one just nerf the CG a bit at the mod-level? In other words, couldn't someone just look through zodd's awesome classic mod code and find the lines that control CG physics/parameters and just nerf it a bit? You don't want to make the CG a POS weapon, you just keep tweaking it a bit until you get it to how it was before IP was around in classic. You just nerf the CG to a low enough level where you would need IP to make it balanced with other weapons. IP in this case would not be a "cheat" like it was before, but a necessary script to make your CG competitive.

I don't know if this is possible, but I just thought I would throw the idea out there.

Basically you would:

1. nerf the cg at the mod-level
2. Re-release the mod with nerfed cg
3. Put new mod on all servers
4. Have everyone keep using IP like before, but now IP just
makes everyone's CG perform at the level it did b/f IP existed in classic mod

Benefits:

1. No more over-powered CGs
2. No more almost impossible to kill HO shields
3. Real Tribes balanced gameplay with O and D
4. Also, since IP supposedly helps even out the playing field b/t high and low pingers with the CG, you would also still have that benefit as well

Unless you like it the way it is. Just an idea though.

The only thing this thread is missing is LOL CG!

Get over it ur gunnah get whored.

ReDEyE!!

TeamWarfare Vet

2013-04-12 23:45

Why the fuk should a Light be able to kill a heavy 1 v 1 ?

That makes no sense.

Can the heavy chase down a capper ?

Can a heavy DJ and instantly be in the mix for a return or egrab ?

NO

But it can fuk you up if you get in range.

Dueling power vs mobility

The D_e_V_i_L

TWL Member

2013-04-13 00:42

Originally posted by: sQu33ze
i carry my own concs as HO, so if u just dance around long enuf ill conc myself and probably ctrl k.

^ I do too sqz, but im usually in a base trying to return when i do it
Post edited by The D_e_V_i_L at 4/13/2013 12:42:51 AM

Fling

Big Grin 4 Life!

2013-04-13 00:44

Originally posted by: Thaen
one md takes all shields down. can't ld use shield to counter? tibs used it pretty well as ld vs bottlecap.

Bottlecap was a noob training team... Depending on which Bottlecap period you're talking about, me and darkstrand, or darkstrand and tarzul... Either way. That was not a solid team. Also, it was 7 man.