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Tribes Papers

Historical capture recovered from the Wayback Machine · captured 2014-04-26 · 194 posts
http://tribespapers.blogspot.com/

If you have ideas for articles for this, let me know. Questions, comments, etc. Your opinion counts.
Post edited by Rooster128 at 10/22/2012 8:18:14 PM
what is this
game dead breh.
what the mother fuck
thanks i learned a lot
Originally posted by: Rooster128
http://tribespapers.blogspot.com/

If you have ideas for articles for this, let me know. Questions, comments, etc. Your opinion counts.


I don't think you can write anything accurate at your level of skill. Sorry. There's so much factually incorrect in what you wrote that its just painful to read if you're actually good at Tribes. Ugh.
Just to elaborate on the above, I'll point out where your lack of skill leads you to be so off base it's not even funny:

1.) Chaingun is the weapon that's defined how good players are in essentially every Tribes game. It's by far the most skill based weapon, and what often separates your dominant players from your average players.

2.) Grenade Launcher in the form it is in T2C is objectively one of the most overpowered weapons that's ever been in the game due to its ease of use/raw power. You can be blind, deaf, and dumb, and still get ridiculous mileage out of the grenade launcher due to how it was overbuffed in T2C. In dueling scenarios, it's literally a rapid fire weapon in where most of your shots don't even have to hit remotely close to someone to do a large amount of damage. Not surprisingly, it's also the weapon average to low skill players do the best at by a wide margin (if you've ever analyzed the old GH stats before they went down).

3.) O. Sniping was underrated because players were terrible - nothing more. O sniping is actually ridiculously effective in T2C against any team that tries to run a defense with a LoF as a lynchpin.

4.) ELF has always been a useless weapon, even dating back to the base days. There's no scenario in where using the ELF is superior to using a chaingun with good aim.

It's not just the weapon analysis that's wrong (I could go on and do point by point for every one), but a huge portion of the LD stuff you wrote was terrible also. For top level LoF play, there is absolutely no scenario in where the LoF wouldn't carry a laser rifle - any non LR option is so far below using a rifle it's not even funny.

(Reason to the above: The LR lets you do consistent damage to cappers setting up, HO who might not have SP up from a long way away, and the ability to finish off cappers or do extra damage to them if they get off the stand. No other weapon in that slot gives you anywhere near the amount of utility for what you're trying to do as an LoF)

Case in point that defines how much of the article is poorly written:

Choosing your Playing Style
I'd also like to point out that Enigma and I are both successful LOFs despite having different approaches to doing things. He carries flares and chains cappers as they come in, doing a guaranteed amount of damage while I prefer the all-or-nothing nade+mine combo. Do what fits your style and do whatever it takes to keep your flag out of enemy hands. No matter how goofy it is, if it works, it works. I have to say that a lot of the conventional stuff is conventional for a reason, however. There's not a lot of trail-blazing to be done in an eleven year-old game, but everyone works in their own ways. I'm offering the strategies that work for me and the things I was taught to do. How you use it and mold it to fit your playing style is up to you.


No. Wrong. Most gameplay scenarios have a clear option that is superior. The entire concept of "OH JUST USE WHAT WORKS FOR YOU" is literally crap. There's a good way of doing things, and a way that's subpar - it's like that in almost every game. It's even self evident in the example you gave. Why? Because chaining a guy does consistent damage, and a capper who's significantly damaged is really easy to kill for the rest of your team if you don't outright stop him/body block him. The easiest way of screwing over your team as an LoF is to go with an option that can allow a capper to get out with full HP - period.

Like I said in the previous post, you just aren't at the level where you can write guides. You don't have anywhere near a good enough grasp on what's good/bad and where the true balance of the game lies.


Post edited by ZProtoss at 10/23/2012 5:23:59 AM
ZP is superior.
It's not even funny!
Great.. Now correct my 200 ping so i can be better
OP's article needs less words and hyperbole. Every paragraph should start with a bold compelling statement that makes the reader want to read further.

*
"Attempting to address the weapons in Tribes 2 is similar in experience to cooking a meal. Just the thought of the final product makes your mouth water. Sometimes it looks like it will be easy with all the parts laid out in front of you. You might burn yourself along the way. Cussing will certainly be involved. Your eyes might tear up. You have to wait a while. Generally, it's a bitch when doing it with other people. And it's uncertain if it will even taste good at the end. But you dream of the enjoyable end-product, and you think it's worth it. Right?"
*

I get it, it's a blog. But these sort of statements go on and on and don't say much. Readers wear out. You need to edit anything that doesn't zing or move the knowledge base forward.

For instance what is the "essence" of the relationship between weapons and skill in Tribes? Or better yet the relationship between weapons, skill and movement, as skiing and jetpack are what make the predictive focus in tribes gameplay so compelling. If you say you're going to talk about the "essence" get down into it right away.

Originally posted by: Rooster128
ZP is superior.


But you're likeable.
i think every player's skill level is based on their ability to use elf and conc effectively, there's no denying this.
Hey Rooster128, I salute you! Its mfkers like you who keep this game going.
more dick pic required
Thanks for the feedback lovers.

I'll work on being more concise.
Post edited by Rooster128 at 10/23/2012 12:09:37 PM
chaingun doesn't particularly beat sniper rifle, zp. why can't we say sniper rifle is the best skill weapon?
Originally posted by: ZProtoss
Just to elaborate on the above, I'll point out where your lack of skill leads you to be so off base it's not even funny:

1.) Chaingun is the weapon that's defined how good players are in essentially every Tribes game. It's by far the most skill based weapon, and what often separates your dominant players from your average players.





LOL. What a joke. So your telling me that it's harder to cg whore someone down than it is to MA disc someone, SL someone, nade someone, or laser someone?

I don't think firing a constant stream of bullets, especially an IP enhanced stream of bullets, is harder than trying to damage someone with a weapon that actually requires timing.

Sorry, but I just had to chime in on this one because when I read it I pretty much just couldn't stop loling.
Originally posted by: triptofan

LOL. What a joke. So your telling me that it's harder to cg whore someone down than it is to MA disc someone, SL someone, nade someone, or laser someone?

I don't think firing a constant stream of bullets, especially an IP enhanced stream of bullets, is harder than trying to damage someone with a weapon that actually requires timing.

Sorry, but I just had to chime in on this one because when I read it I pretty much just couldn't stop loling.


There's a ridiculous and dramatic difference between someone with a top level CG (Darkstrand), and your average comp player. Tracking aim is one of the purest and most difficult FPS skills - whether it's in the form of T2C chaingun, or guns like the Q3 lightning gun.

The difference is far more dramatic than subtle percentage differences in hitting standard shots like easy SLs or close range MA's (the only kind that's reliable).

And yes, top level CG is far harder to achieve than grenade launcher aim which is pretty much identical for all players above a certain threshold (because GL is ridiculously easy in T2C).
Originally posted by: Thaen
chaingun doesn't particularly beat sniper rifle, zp. why can't we say sniper rifle is the best skill weapon?


Laser Rifle is a lot more situational than the chaingun. It's used in a few particular contexts (LoF/Roaming LD, and less frequently in LO). It's definitely highly skill based, but it can't define a player in the same way the chaingun does. Why?

Every T2 loadout in the game (that's top level comp viable) uses the chaingun. Every role in the game is going to use the CG to a significant degree when played at a high level. It's pretty much the quintessential player defining weapon in the game because of how it's used in everything and how much variance there is in CG skill.
Originally posted by: ZProtoss
Originally posted by: triptofan

LOL. What a joke. So your telling me that it's harder to cg whore someone down than it is to MA disc someone, SL someone, nade someone, or laser someone?

I don't think firing a constant stream of bullets, especially an IP enhanced stream of bullets, is harder than trying to damage someone with a weapon that actually requires timing.

Sorry, but I just had to chime in on this one because when I read it I pretty much just couldn't stop loling.


There's a ridiculous and dramatic difference between someone with a top level CG (Darkstrand), and your average comp player. Tracking aim is one of the purest and most difficult FPS skills - whether it's in the form of T2C chaingun, or guns like the Q3 lightning gun.

The difference is far more dramatic than subtle percentage differences in hitting standard shots like easy SLs or close range MA's (the only kind that's reliable).

And yes, top level CG is far harder to achieve than grenade launcher aim which is pretty much identical for all players above a certain threshold (because GL is ridiculously easy in T2C).


If you want to drill down to a particular scenario then we will. In close-range combat, I gaurantee it is MUCH easier to cg whore someone down (even more so with IP) than it is to hit a MA disc or MA SL shot. The cg is even more effective at closer range than at a longer range. With the spinfusor, the rate of fire and speed of the spinfusor's projectile is much lower, making it even harder to time because your target has much more time to dodge it (in mid air). The same is pretty much true with the SL, except now you even have to get within a close enough proximity to even hit your target. In other words, disc and sl require a much higher "tracking aim" than the cg. With laser, I think the tracking aim is fairly easy, but the rate of fire is still dramatically lower than cg's. With GL vs. cg, I think its more of a tossup. I think cg, gl, and elf are probably the easiest weapons to use in the game.

Disc and SL would be at the top of my list for skill requirements.

I think the fact that using the disc and sl in close range combat IS UNRELIABLE means that it requires more skill doesn't it? The reason why everyone is even using the cg in higher frequency than other weapons is because 1.) it's easier to use and 2.) IP. Taking that path of least resistence, happens all the time.
Post edited by triptofan at 10/23/2012 4:25:34 PM
Originally posted by: ZProtoss
1.) Chaingun is the weapon that's defined how good players are in essentially every Tribes game. It's by far the most skill based weapon, and what often separates your dominant players from your average players.

Originally posted by: triptofan
LOL. What a joke. So your telling me that it's harder to cg whore someone down than it is to MA disc someone, SL someone, nade someone, or laser someone?

...

CG is the weapon that pretty much defines how good players are in competition. The thing is that you should very rarely ever actually try to MA somebody w/ disc instead of just chaining them.

How about a bad analogy?

"Putter is the club that defines how good a golfer is"
"LOL noob, it takes so much more skill to hit a hole in one w/ a driver!!!"

Notice how the different golf clubs have specific uses, you don't putt with a driver etc. Same thing in tribes, you should very rarely go for MAs with disc in competition, since it's almost always better to just CG mid-air targets.

Say in golf you have a 1% chance of hitting a hole in one, but 99% of the time you're completely fucked and land in the water. Maybe you can say that it takes way more skill to hit the hole-in-one, but you'd be retarded to try for it in the first place.

The best players in tribes use the right weapons for the job.

On another note, I also do think that most noobs underestimate how much better a good player's CG is than their own. There is a HUGE difference in accuracy. My CG is light-years better than a random goon's, but there are also people who have WAY better CG than I do.
Originally posted by: selfownage
Originally posted by: ZProtoss
1.) Chaingun is the weapon that's defined how good players are in essentially every Tribes game. It's by far the most skill based weapon, and what often separates your dominant players from your average players.

Originally posted by: triptofan
LOL. What a joke. So your telling me that it's harder to cg whore someone down than it is to MA disc someone, SL someone, nade someone, or laser someone?

...

CG is the weapon that pretty much defines how good players are in competition. The thing is that you should very rarely ever actually try to MA somebody w/ disc instead of just chaining them.

How about a bad analogy?

"Putter is the club that defines how good a golfer is"
"LOL noob, it takes so much more skill to hit a hole in one w/ a driver!!!"

Notice how the different golf clubs have specific uses, you don't putt with a driver etc. Same thing in tribes, you should very rarely go for MAs with disc in competition, since it's almost always better to just CG mid-air targets.

Say in golf you have a 1% chance of hitting a hole in one, but 99% of the time you're completely fucked and land in the water. Maybe you can say that it takes way more skill to hit the hole-in-one, but you'd be retarded to try for it in the first place.

The best players in tribes use the right weapons for the job.

On another note, I also do think that most noobs underestimate how much better a good player's CG is than their own. There is a HUGE difference in accuracy. My CG is light-years better than a random goon's, but there are also people who have WAY better CG than I do.


But you are comparing the skill requirements between using a cg vs other weapons in a list... If you are going to limit the situation to what is reliable and what isn't and/ or what people use most often in competition, then what's the point in even doing the comparison? Just put all the weapons that people use in the highest frequency in a list and rank them based on skill which would probably look like this:

1.) cg
2.) morter
3.) GL

Your leaving out like half the weapons. Who cares? It's not a bad analogy if you actually look at the reason for doing the analysis in the first place.

Also, have you ever considered the idea that maybe someone COULD be better with the disc or sl than they are with the cg? Guess what? You just excluded the weapons from the list so you just lost that data point.

To put it another way. Let's say the goal is to maximize your portfolio of investments. But you decide you are only going to look at NASDAQ traded stocks. The fact that you are only looking at NASDAQ traded stocks and not other investments in other markets does not fall within the confines of your overall goal. You are excluding like 90% of other possible investments..

And this situation is not like using a driver in golf to hit a hole in one, so YOUR analogy really doesn't apply here. The disc and sl are really not that unreliable if you've developed a skill in using them effectively. They are only unreliable on average, because everyone sucks ass with the disc and sl.


Post edited by triptofan at 10/23/2012 5:19:17 PM
Read the part where I break down skill into 3 components. It might take certain "twitch" skill to utilize one weapon as opposed to another, but it also takes situational awareness (or "tactical" skill) to know when to pull the weapon out, and how to use it in that situation.

And really, I'm more for choice as something a Tribes game needs to have, that has always been my belief. People shouldn't be pigeon-holed into using certain weapons by the functionality of the game- if anything, weapon restrictions should be a cultural thing decided on by the competitive community (that in itself being a collective choice).
everytime zp wrties somehting anywhere, I see the nerd with the walmart shoes and awkward & nerdy demeanor, I lol and stop reading.
Originally posted by: EFX
everytime zp wrties somehting anywhere, I see the nerd with the walmart shoes and awkward & nerdy demeanor, I lol and stop reading.


same i see some weird guy who gives awkward hugs at lans LAWL
i dont know wat u guys r arguing

CG #1
GL #2
i dont even use other weapons unless i need to
disc only 4 dj speed n mortar for base rape
lol MA
MAing is for newbs
Originally posted by: Rooster128
http://tribespapers.blogspot.com/

If you have ideas for articles for this, let me know. Questions, comments, etc. Your opinion counts.


I think this is awesome... need to read thread / page. Will post in a while.

I don't think a lot of you guys should be arguing with ZP here. Although, I disagree with much Rooster128 is writing as does ZP, I think that its a good thing he is doing and its interesting to see how other people view the game. Props for putting your ideas out there, Rooster.

I don't have too much time to go over all of this stuff at the moment due to needing to study (I will definitely write more later, and be happy to contribute if that is the idea behind this at least), but a few things from what I briefly skimmed over...

1) I think you all, including ZP, are missing an important key aspect, and the only useful aspect to the ELF gun in my mind. Rooster's idea of double teaming a top level HO shield player with one guy ELFing isn't really too smart, as I would likely mine disk the ELF guy (the thrown mine rendering the ELF gun useless. There is no "getting behind" me because I control that), or I would simply run away to more advantageous ground where I can nade or force you to float in the air. There is really one time where ELF is truly useful in Tribes 2. I'm not positive people understand why I'm doing what I'm doing when I'm doing it, I've watched casts and the caster goes "what the fuck is he doing", and read IRC later and have seen reputable players laughing at me for doing this. People on my own team have told me to stop it because "the sound is annoying and distracting".

Basically the ELF gun is really not so much of a weapon (the energy drain is useless in classic) as it is a portable, carriable motion sensor or camera. This is useful in some pretty important defensive situations. Namely, the flag standoff. Which happens all the time. I carry the ELF gun on defense when I'm holding the flag in medium shield pack and sometimes in heavy if the map demands it. And it would probably be useful to have other players in proximity to the flag carrier hold one as well. (I feel that Medium on many maps is far superior to heavy due to the increased ground movement speed allowing you to avoid concussion grenades)

I, in medium shield, am much more durable than the one shot kill deployable sensors in Tribes. Often times, it doesn't matter if you have a team farming out sensors because they just go down on the first wave of attack, usually relatively easily map depending. This leaves you sitting there like a dumb shit open to one of the most dangerous of foes in this particular game state: Cloak pack + concussion grenades.

I am no where near as afraid of heavies when I'm holding the flag in a standoff. You can see them coming, you know they are there, and if you are smart and good at indoor combat, you can usually position yourself away from many of their threats. What kills you, is a surprise. You can sit there with your shield pack on and hold down your fire key wasting no energy, and scan the immediate cone shaped area in front of you for cloaked players. When one walks within range (which is actually pretty far away relatively speaking), the ELF will automatically lock onto them (most under utilized and probably unknown thing in Tribes, I literally think I'm the only one that has done this). From there you can switch to grenade launcher or mine disk pretty much instantly, and with your directional data obtained, either kill the player or run away to a safer spot.

I would make sure to take the old school into consideration when writing these. Which is what you are doing. I like that you said my opinion counts. ZP actually really knows what he's talking about here.

Secondly, as far as someone arguing that MA disks are "more skill based" than chaingun. This is a fools argument, because there is nothing skill based about going for an MA in the first place. Its a noob move, most of the time.
since when did skill = efficiency??
Cg is more efficient yes, but getting ma disk's will always require more skill. You cant say that whoring down someone at 40m requires more skill than ma'ing someone at 40m. If you really think this then i guess this community really is jaded beyond belief.
This is my scenario in a 1v1...

I start whoring you...
(your hands begin to sweat and shake, "fuck its xclusive")

You start floating in the air while panicking, improperly switching weapons and missing every shot.
(at this point you're hopeless and can't even shoot properly pressing down even harder on your trigger finger as if that would help, after you notice you're about to get pooned, you frantically try to hit control k to avoid it, but then... its too late.)

I switch to disc, matrix throw a mine, midair you in the face and all I hear is DING!
(this is the part where I have killed you, sure, I could've just whore you down, eh? But I like to rub it in. Some people just move-on after they die, others break their mouse or even break their mics like selfownage)
Problem with ZP is that you can tell that he spent no time actually reading it, and just skimmed it to find points to argue with. You can tell, because he takes what I say out of context a handful of times. Anybody who spent time reading it can see this.

But you know, he has merits based on the fact he thinks T:A has better meta than T2C. I guess I'll continue to listen to him. lol.

I love your idea on the ELF psycore- that's a great example of choosing to use a tool offered you in an effective way. Screw conventions, whatever works.

And I like this conversation about efficiency vs. skill- it is important to make that distinction. And as I said, if you have any piece of writing (opinion, guide, or otherwise), feel free to pass it along to me to post up. (Credit being given of course.)
Post edited by Rooster128 at 10/24/2012 11:53:00 AM
I just think that everyone wants to think that the cg is a weapon that requires a high level of skill because everyone uses it most of the time, and the same would be true if everyone used the disc or another weapon.

If you just look at the skill required to aim a cg vs a disc, it's dramatically different. I can tell you right now that an upcoming player who acquires IP will gain skill at using the cg much faster than they would with another weapon like the disc or SL. And if you look at the current environment where everyone is pretty much a cg whore, I think there is something to be said about someone who can run around with the disc and kill everyone with it (Snipah, CB, Julius, etc). If the weapon is harder (on average) to use in the current environment, its probably because the weapon requires more skill to use, and the few who put in the effort to master it are probably on the very top in terms of skill.

And yes, nature does tend towards the path of least resistence, and that is reflected in human behavior as well. On average, people go for the low hanging fruit, and I think the cg is that kind of fruit.
Post edited by triptofan at 10/24/2012 1:09:22 PM
snipah is a cg whore. the other two are usually skiing around so constantly aiming a cg would mess up the route
Originally posted by: Thaen
snipah is a cg whore. the other two are usually skiing around so constantly aiming a cg would mess up the route


Snipah is good with every weapon, cg included. Go duel one of those 3 players. I guarantee they won't just cg whore you down, they'll leverage the disc and GL and balance it.

Go duel DS, and you'll probably get like 95% cg, 5% GL. There's a big difference if you look for it.


Post edited by triptofan at 10/24/2012 1:41:45 PM
i don't duel i play ctf
Bunch of novels up in this bitch


Post edited by BIGSEX at 10/24/2012 5:00:29 PM