Tourney Finals

Acclaim and I have been discussing the Knights vs Rage situation, and we have concluded that finishing a two month tournament off with a forfeit win is basically unacceptable. I'm sure that neither side will be entirely happy with the compromise that we have cooked up, but at the very least it will ensure that the tourney ends with a match rather than drama.

To be fair, both teams have solid grounds for complaint here. On one hand, Knights has a solid point that, according to how the schedule was originally laid out, May 7th should be the default date for finals. On the other, the May 1st deadline I erroneously posted has been "official" for two weeks, and it is not entirely fair to pull the rug out from under Rage with 2 days to go, when it has stood uncontested/uncorrected for that long.

What we have decided is to give Knights 3 options:

1. Play on May 1st, sticking to the original deadline. I know that you guys were more than willing to play BP on that night, so I have to assume that this is a valid option.


2. Play on May 7th (or another mutually agreed upon date) with small enough team sizes that Rage is able to field a full roster. From what I understand, this would probably mean playing ~10v10.


3. Play on May 7th (or another mutually agreed upon date) and allow Rage the use of subs. To insure that subs would be neither under nor overqualified, these would come from other teams, and each one would replace a player that was drafted in the same round as them, or earlier. So, for example, if Fettuccine (round 3) and oDDable (round 9) did not attend, then they could be replaced by All Creation (round 3) and anthem (round 9), but not All Creation (round 3) and sQu33ze (round 7).

Knights: Please contact either myself or Acclaim before tomorrow (Saturday at 9 EST) to inform us which option you'd prefer. If no preference is specified, the choice will be left up to Rage. Any (reasonable) alternatives that would ensure the match being played will be considered, so feel free to suggest them.

Before people go crazy quoting rules and precedent, keep in mind that those have already been bent in the interests of ensuring that teams actually play (e.g. Knights vs. Omega). Both sides have made valid points, and if it's going to be a choice between forcing a compromise and not having a match, a compromise will be imposed.

---

Celios is on it
TeamWarfare Competition Manager
Email: celios@teamwarfare.com
IRC: #lastgasp

so basically they get to replace parts of their roster with the best picks of each round.

roger

No. Just end this tourney. No turning around this train. People are frigging tired.
Post edited by Star-Demon at 4/29/2011 10:03:29 PM

That was a fast reply

Play on May 1st, sticking to the original deadline. I know that you guys were more than willing to play BP on that night, so I have to assume that this is a valid option.

LoL

09[21:02:10] [@Darkstrand> [20:50:31] [Darkstrand> [16:43:25] [Acclaim> bp supposedly cannot field a team tommrow
09[21:02:10] [@Darkstrand> [20:50:31] [Darkstrand> [16:43:33] [Acclaim> they can play thurs or sunday
09[21:02:10] [@Darkstrand> [20:50:31] [Darkstrand> 09[16:47:35] [Darkstrand> those days aren't options for us

[19:09:49] [Acclaim> Man you are fucking thick, the first ruling was based on some give and take for both sides... you wanted a forfiet win becuase they left the server so i gave you mmd... the part that you where giving was the sunday the 1 day of the week that 3 of the 2 teams could play


[19:10:01] [Acclaim> so idk what you want everything cant be all for knights
[19:10:11] [Darkstrand> in giving us options
[19:10:16] [Darkstrand> celios is talkign about how he knwos that day works for us
[19:10:19] [Darkstrand> you know that day doesnt' work for us


lol it's like the TWL admins aren't even trying to be honest. they know sunday the 1st doesnt' work for us. we've been telling it to them for over a week.
Post edited by Darkstrand at 4/29/2011 10:11:14 PM

Time to start messing around with the draft order

Just so I understand...

DS is unwilling to play when he can't have his top picks there
Rage is unwilling to play when their top picks aren't there

And there are zero possible days when both teams can have their top pics available?
Post edited by R[a]zz at 4/29/2011 10:25:43 PM

Originally posted by: R[a]zz
Just so I understand...

DS is unwilling to play when he can't have his top picks there, but complains about a different date when Rage would have to replace their top picks with other players of their choice?

it works like this. They don't get dark oassis so they can get zipher. they don't have darkoasis so they get timberwolf/warhero etc

Rage should go with option #3 for sure considering some of the talented players they could get as subs that loathe Darkstrand. I'm sure some would love nothing more than to see him nerd rage after his team loses.

more fake logs from DS.

Originally posted by: Darkstrand

Originally posted by: R[a]zz
Just so I understand...

DS is unwilling to play when he can't have his top picks there, but complains about a different date when Rage would have to replace their top picks with other players of their choice?

it works like this. They don't get dark oassis so they can get zipher. they don't have darkoasis so they get timberwolf/warhero etc

If they have to take obviously subpar players to another pick, why are you so unwilling to play when you can field a full team without your top picks?

Doesn't this go both ways?

I don't understand the logic here.

Both teams are subject to the same restrictions.

Remember when you guys let Thugs pick-up some subs when it was the beginning of the just-for-fun tourney and the stakes weren't very high?

Oh yeah wait a second...that didn't happen.

In fact, rayne himself said picking a team that would show is part of the necessary skill required to win the tournament and picking players that might not show deserves no sympathy.

Hey option 3 sounds pretty nice. Basically Rage can just have most of their players not even try to show up, and replace them all with much better players.

---

On the other, the May 1st deadline I erroneously posted has been "official" for two weeks, and it is not entirely fair to pull the rug out from under Rage with 2 days to go, when it has stood uncontested/uncorrected for that long.

Another big problem with this "judgement" by celios/acclaim is RAGE were always hozed. RAGE not realizing celios mistake had no effect on their ability to attend the 7th. They just had the illusion of possibility before but not actual possibility.

frowny face for darkstrand. he wont get his forfeit win

Originally posted by: R[a]zz
Just so I understand...

DS is unwilling to play when he can't have his top picks there
Rage is unwilling to play when their top picks aren't there

And there are zero possible days when both teams can have their top pics available?

Rage is trying to play while we have any picks there. If you havent been following, we have 13 active players left total. On Sundays we can generally get 12 or 13. The next Sundays is Mothers day pushing a Sunday match at least 2 more weeks out (since they cant/wont make the 1st). They have also stated they basically cant field their best unit on Sundays at all now, even though almost every match in the entire tourney has been a Sunday.

This isnt a how does Rage get our best players on some special day. Its how do we not play 12 v 10, or have to use subs at all if possible.

Of course the way DS' brain works, the first thing he thought about was if he was in this situaion, he would tell players not to show so he could pick the best replacements from each round.

With Rage, everyone who showed to matches played maps. Every single person, in every single match, even if we had a better player sitting. Why you might ask....Because some of us get what a for fun tourney is .. and that it was meant to generate renewed interest in comp in both veteran AND new players.

Rage can field 12-13 our 13 active on Sunday. So Can Knights, but not DS' choice 12. Hed rather draw the tournament out until he can get the perfect lineup there, and sit active people who would be happy to play given the chance. THats his perogative, but don't assume for a second that every other captian would do the same.

the whole idea of player replacement is fucking dumb and not in the spirit of competition

both teams worked hard to get to the finals and replacing anyone with subs in the finals defeats the whole purpose of the tourney

both teams shuld work together to find a mutually beneficial date within the next month

it is not a big deal to invest more time in this

u guys have already invested 9 years

so what youre saying is that im drastically better than oddable. nice.

i like the smaller player count more than subs. but as ive said till im blue in the face. i wanna play this, win or lose.

apparently, rage is going to attempt to show on saturday. i hope u guys have 12, if not, lets hope its 10 but heres a giant thank you for at least attempting to play.

i really wish for a gg, and if ppl set aside grievances till the match is over, we may just have that, some ggs.

to the admins, while yer right, noone is gonna be totally happy about it, i mos def see where both sides could feel shafted. its far better than the ugly mess thats been created and has me thinking about uninstalling. thanks for trying if nothing else.
Post edited by JT at 4/30/2011 4:41:28 AM

Where's the love for the players in the pre-approved sub pool... come on now!

i'm confused how using subs from equivalent draft rounds means that rage would somehow end up with better players... pretty much none of the players in each draft round are so much better than everyone else that it would constitute an unfair advantage, and there are more than a few where it would hurt rage more than help.

Originally posted by: Tiberius Khan
i'm confused how using subs from equivalent draft rounds means that rage would somehow end up with better players... pretty much none of the players in each draft round are so much better than everyone else that it would constitute an unfair advantage, and there are more than a few where it would hurt rage more than help.

I don't understand how you can be this clueless ALL THE TIME. I'm beginning to think you are some sort of elaborate troll.

no you just misunderstood him idiot lol hes so smart dont even try to understand him!

---

from the 12v12 Ten Year Anniversary Tournament thread

Originally posted by: Wormwood

1) Matches will be 12 vs 12. captains can play 13 or 14 a piece if both captains agree to play more. There is a sub pool to draw from if a team cant field 12. tourney moderators must agree on the players chosen to play out of the sub pool.

Unless the rules have changed, it should be ok for any player from the sub pool to play in the finals match for Rageaholics

Post edited by Nofanator at 4/30/2011 3:06:31 PM

substitute players are going to need tags just in case this proves to be viable match option. No need to invite additional week delay.

...although I really prefer the option of draft round matching. That idea is innovative and rocks! Something to keep in mind for future tourneys if teams have trouble fielding.
Post edited by om at 4/30/2011 4:51:28 PM

Originally posted by: Celios
Acclaim and I have been discussing the Knights vs Rage situation, and we have concluded that finishing a two month tournament off with a forfeit win is basically unacceptable. I'm sure that neither side will be entirely happy with the compromise that we have cooked up, but at the very least it will ensure that the tourney ends with a match rather than drama.

To be fair, both teams have solid grounds for complaint here. On one hand, Knights has a solid point that, according to how the schedule was originally laid out, May 7th should be the default date for finals. On the other, the May 1st deadline I erroneously posted has been "official" for two weeks, and it is not entirely fair to pull the rug out from under Rage with 2 days to go, when it has stood uncontested/uncorrected for that long.

What we have decided is to give Knights 3 options:

1. Play on May 1st, sticking to the original deadline. I know that you guys were more than willing to play BP on that night, so I have to assume that this is a valid option.


2. Play on May 7th (or another mutually agreed upon date) with small enough team sizes that Rage is able to field a full roster. From what I understand, this would probably mean playing ~10v10.


3. Play on May 7th (or another mutually agreed upon date) and allow Rage the use of subs. To insure that subs would be neither under nor overqualified, these would come from other teams, and each one would replace a player that was drafted in the same round as them, or earlier. So, for example, if Fettuccine (round 3) and oDDable (round 9) did not attend, then they could be replaced by All Creation (round 3) and anthem (round 9), but not All Creation (round 3) and sQu33ze (round 7).

Knights: Please contact either myself or Acclaim before tomorrow (Saturday at 9 EST) to inform us which option you'd prefer. If no preference is specified, the choice will be left up to Rage. Any (reasonable) alternatives that would ensure the match being played will be considered, so feel free to suggest them.

Before people go crazy quoting rules and precedent, keep in mind that those have already been bent in the interests of ensuring that teams actually play (e.g. Knights vs. Omega). Both sides have made valid points, and if it's going to be a choice between forcing a compromise and not having a match, a compromise will be imposed.

alright, We're selecting option 2. We really need to know the #ofPlayers ASAP or else this is even less fair. Rage should work quickly to figure out what kind of #s they are looking at and contact us about this so we can all work out a # soon.
Post edited by Darkstrand at 4/30/2011 7:50:18 PM

I don't see anything in those three options requiring rage to set a specific number prior to match but I do see option number two, which you have selected, suggests the player number may fall around 10v10.

Should a fourth option be added?

I'm kind of confused about this:

What we have decided is to give Knights 3 options:

Who decided to give Knights all the options? Did Rage have a say in all of this? I'm sure you guys will ammend this decision if you determine it to be unfair.
Post edited by om at 4/30/2011 8:00:32 PM

Originally posted by: Celios

Knights: Please contact either myself or Acclaim before tomorrow (Saturday at 9 EST) to inform us which option you'd prefer. If no preference is specified, the choice will be left up to Rage.

My bad. I didn't see deadline has already passed and it's Rage's choice since DS chose none of the above.

edit: darn...sometimes artists loose track of the days. half an hour for ds to choose a real option.
Post edited by om at 4/30/2011 8:26:07 PM

DS has been communicating with the admins and Rayne via IRC as was requested, and it looks like this thing will happen next Saturday, although unsure of how many people will be playing at this time.

Originally posted by: Mindflayr
DS has been communicating with the admins and Rayne via IRC as was requested, and it looks like this thing will happen next Saturday, although unsure of how many people will be playing at this time.

Fuck that shit.

Rage - Take a vacation. Go to bahamas together. on match day call DS on the phone he bitched to get in this mom's basement and, while having sex, tell him you forfeit. Continue being on vacation.

I'm sorry but I don't understand star demons post. The admins made it clear that the fins need to be played. I agree. Everyone who participated in the tourney should want the finals to be played. If the finals weren't played, it would be a huge waste of time for all.

Perhaps if u made it that far SD, u would want the chance to finish it and maybe win the thing. I'm sure there are players that feel this way on both teams.

By all means voice yer hatred of the dragon god. But don't use the tourney to do it. Ppl havnt worked on solving this dispute only to have petty and childish behaviour ruin it for the rest of the folks that wanna play.

All to lash out at 1 person. U guys really love to build up yer anti-heroes.

Post edited by JT at 5/1/2011 4:24:50 PM

If I made it that far to have three weeks of my life delayed because of the desperate attempts of one person to fuck things over, continuing wouldn't be anything other than punishment for being foolish.

I know SOMEONE around here must have a real life that this shit is cutting into. I'd say I do but I'm stupid enough to still be seeing this thing through until it ends even though my team was as good as done 5 weeks ago.

I felt bad for the teams that had to continue playing going into singles.

Believe me when I say this shit isn't worth whatever possible win or game may be played whenever it ends up happening. It's just not.
Post edited by Star-Demon at 5/1/2011 4:32:18 PM

well it appears to be more about time, and the % of it someone is willing to dedicate to tribes. and not what you are saying it is. if you've been following this tourney at all, you would see that while knights has a share of the responsibility for delays, we dont shoulder all of it.

and who are you to say whats worthwhile or not regarding the finals when you are not even part of them?

not trying to hate on you here but really, get a grip or at least call a spade a spade and be clear about your true feelings for why this match shouldnt be played.
Post edited by JT at 5/1/2011 4:50:42 PM

Originally posted by: JT
I'm sorry but I don't understand star demons post. The admins made it clear that the fins need to be played. I agree. Everyone who participated in the tourney should want the finals to be played. If the finals weren't played, it would be a huge waste of time for all.

Exactly.

When I of all people am chilling out, and backing DS's followthrough to get this hammered out as Fairly as possible by working with the admins/Rayne ... you know you're just pushing it over the line to argue otherwise. Just let it be and well finish this thing off.

See you Saturday Knights. (Hopefully I will be there. Still working to figure out if I can switch shifts and won't know till mid-next week . )
Post edited by Mindflayr at 5/1/2011 7:19:31 PM

the real evil here is that anemix is a real life vampire and he gonna track u all thru ur ip address and suck ur blood cuz he prefer the blood of tribe player

also he a hybrid vampire: this mean he can go into the daylight

but he can not show true vampire form until it night

so if u meet him during the day be sure to kill him

Originally posted by: *twink
the real evil here is that anemix is a real life vampire and he gonna track u all thru ur ip address and suck ur blood cuz he prefer the blood of tribe player

also he a hybrid vampire: this mean he can go into the daylight

but he can not show true vampire form until it night

so if u meet him during the day be sure to kill him

this sounds amazing. im putting on black nail polish right now.

I hate that this is on a Saturday night...no way will I be able to watch the cast

Well in 10 years its nice to see that some things don't change.

Originally posted by: Darkstrand
so basically they get to replace parts of their roster with the best picks of each round.

roger

Well its good to see you are crying rule fucked for once.

HOWS IT FEEL TO BURN?

Kinda like when that sensor bitch slapped ya with ur own mortor on DX.

=)

Since this rule was chosen

Play on May 7th (or another mutually agreed upon date) with small enough team sizes that Rage is able to field a full roster. From what I understand, this would probably mean playing ~10v10.

I am a little curious as to its' interpretation as it is kinda ambiguous. Does it mean that Rage gets to choose the roster size, depending on how many of their guys show up, or what I think it is saying is that whichever team shows up with less people gets to decide the roster size, as that way Rage will always get to fill a full roster?