Base/Base++/Arena and other players..

Teamwarfare has asked that all players update their client and server machines by this Wednesday. Since then new information has has come up that shows a lot of Duel processor servers cannot run under the new patch with out having bad lag spikes, twitches and other various problems. This issue is currently being discussed in another post by many major server hosts in this forum. Teamwarfare has had some discussions on what to do about this issue and how it may effect your upcomming matches once you switch your servers to the new patch. There are a few options that we can consider but I thought it best to feel out the community to see if you consider this to be a worthwile issue to pursue.

Would you like one of the following.
1. Keep current mandate of upgrading servers to latest version by Wednesday.

2. Mandate a downgrade to last official patch and use it until a fix is released and tested.

3. Leave it up to each team to decide what version to play under in match comms.

4. Other

I am personally very concerned that a lot of teams that may not be aware of this issue and may not know it exists until they perform their server upgrade this week. It is my understanding that it does effect any mod because it is a patch issue not only a classic mod issue.

^Kodiak
{Rk|Royal Knights

Teamwarfare Tribes2 Renegades Admin
Teamwarfare Tribes2 12-Man CTF Admin
Planet Renegades Site Admin

Thanks Kodiak,

The situation is as follows. Group A cannot use the patch (dual CPU), Group B has no problems (Single CPU). This is fine as long as group A doesnt need to play group B. What are the odds of that.

Even at the old patch level all groups cannot play. This really is a damnable problem. The Classic and TR2 ladders want to get started. They cant WITHOUT the latest patch. The community would like to compete, but some (many) cant WITH the latest patch.

Actually, it is even worse. Half our team is patched, the other half isnt. We cant practice or prepare for matches. (We have a match on Thur and have yet to have a practice for it because of this SMP issue).

Given that the patch wasnt tested (Goaks and I think 1 or 2 others were the only ones that had the damn thing) , with the problems that are known at this point and the fact that this is the last patch, I suggest that rather than rush a single issue fix (there may be more that wont get fixed given that this is the last patch) that comprehensive testing be done not only on this patch but on whatever is sent to replace it BEFORE it is accepted as final.

I hate to say that because of the effect on Classic and TR2. I would note however that both Classic and TR2 appear to be going through a revision stage right now anyway. This time might be well spent in the long run tightening up Classic and TR2.

For the Classic and TR2 teams, you might consider a temporary "for fun" start of the ladders just to get in non-binding gun time until the patch/Classic/TR2 are final. Then reset the ladder and start in earnest. Call it a pre-ladder 'warmup' for a new mod.

For the rest, it is almost certain that they must compete unpatched I think.

This is a mess. But there have been far too many play interruptions in the last 4 months. This needs to be kept going. The only caveat to this MIGHT be that GG actually knows what the problem is and will have a fix this week. Even then because of the total lack of testing, I have some reservations about this patch. I for one dont accept this as worthy of anything official.

Jim

3.

p.s. this sucks. =(

is there anyone out there that can do their job right?

don't release shit until it works plz.

3 might work, but in the event that the teams cant resolve which patch to use you have a problem that isnt covered in the rules right now I think.

What will TWL do in the event that a patch level cant be agreed upon?

The Classic and TR2 ladders want to get started. They cant WITHOUT the latest patch. They have no choice. They need to do 'something' even if it isnt 'official'.

Post edited by JimBodkins at 10/1/2002 4:34:02 AM

Originally posted by: JimBodkins

3 might work, but in the event that the teams cant resolve which patch to use you have a problem that isnt covered in the rules right now I think.

What will TWL do in the event that a patch level cant be agreed upon?

The Classic and TR2 ladders want to get started. They cant WITHOUT the latest patch. They have no choice. They need to do 'something' even if it isnt 'official'.

regardless of how badly classic and tr2 want to get started... nothing is going to get started until this issue is resolved. play must stop until a fix is released. more waiting for the t2 community. sierra owes us their soul for us being loyal.

True.

I havnt seen this problem to date, but I have read about it in these forums. What servers are having these issues? Is it only client side or server side? Im sorry I dont really know what a duel processor is, can someone esxplain it in layman terms for the idiots out there like me?
Spaceman Spiff
=W=Warlords

Not to keep hitting this thread, but what exactly did Rodberg plan on putting on the official re-release of the T2 CD? I hope to GOD not something like this.

Listen up Alex. You put anything even remotely like this on the re-release CD of T2 and the press will absolutely ream you for not only re-releasing T2 but doing the re-release in the same spirit as the original BUGGY release of T2. You wont recover from press like that. It is in Sierra's interests to get this right. Even the PS2 products could/will be effected by being related to a flawed product.

Sorry, a little off topic.

Dual CPU systems have two processors rather than one. What has happened for the most part is people have either taken their systems down (because they are unplayable) or they have reverted to the previous patch. So you may not have seen this problem. (Many of the systems that have this problem are offline or unpatched). I bet that one thing you have seen is fewer servers in the browser though. Change the filter to 'all servers' and you will see that there are many fewer servers online right now and many fewer patched servers than there should be.

Umm, I normally never need to ask something like this, but since I dont know EXACTLY what the root of the problem is, and we do know the problem...

If DualCPU's are messing up for some reason, then (this sounds dumb, i know) cant you just remove one? and at leat have it working SOMEWHAT...


-Veni Vidi Vici- 7-Man Base CTF Team Malevolency 14-Man Classic Universal Assassins 7-Man Classic"In my younger years, I was very conceited. But that's all changed now, because now... I'm perfect."

Originally posted by: Validuz

Umm, I normally never need to ask something like this, but since I dont know EXACTLY what the root of the problem is, and we do know the problem...

If DualCPU's are messing up for some reason, then (this sounds dumb, i know) cant you just remove one? and at leat have it working SOMEWHAT...

Commercial hosting services have dual's to handle multiple servers. My server is in a different city 150 miles away. If it were 1 server, probably. This is all over the world. GG just needs to get it right. (I'm half expecting the corrected patch to fix this problem and replace the disc launcher with crossbows.)

Every sports league has a preseason......I liked Jim's idea of a 'nonbinding' round or two for leagues....make it preseason then start off the regular season after these issues have been fixed.

What the community needs to do is help each other out. There are plenty of servers out there which could host matches/scrims/practices that haven't been adversly affected by the patch. I'm going to start a thread for just that, and I strongly urge TWL to open up a preseason for TR2 leagues, just to get people playing competitively again.

Oh, and to respond to ^K, Letting teams banter it out is fine, but TWL must take a stance in case they cannot agree, sorry, but it's on your guys shoulders for that


Bullseye
Former C/O -]OX[-
Former C/O =STiX= Tribes2 Classic

While waiting for the fix, People can have the best of both patches.

If you upgraded already, you can put this EXE of the last patch "renamed" so it does not overwrite the new EXE into your gamedata folder and be able to play in the old patch, As long as the servers have CRC off.

ftp://ftp.slingscripts.com/T2scripts/zNew_Patch/Tribes12.exe

Save to your Gamedata folder and right click and drag your SHORTCUT that you start T2 with "NOT THE EXE" to your desktop, Right click that new shortcut, Hit properties, change sierraup.exe to Tribes12.exe

Startup with that and you can play on old servers that have CRC off.

PS. You will have to do this to watch any demos before the patch Anyway.

As I see it the current patch is not an option. It is unplayable.
If you leave it up to the teams to decide it will just lead to more problems.
The ONLY option I think is valid is for the TWL to mandate a downgrade until a proper patch is released. Yes this means reinstalling for some, which is a pain in the ass, but who wants to play on a messed up server. You would think that after dealing with all the beta stuff people would have backed up their T2 directory before they patched.
TWL needs to make the call. If the teams can agree on an alternative then fine. But a decision needs to be made. soon.
Post edited by G1ZM0 at 10/1/2002 8:48:20 AM

Originally posted by: JimBodkins
The situation is as follows. Group A cannot use the patch (dual CPU), Group B has no problems (Single CPU). This is fine as long as group A doesnt need to play group B. What are the odds of that....

For the rest, it is almost certain that they must compete unpatched I think.

Oh please. I hate to rain on your alarmist parade, but there are PLENTY of good, patched servers ready and reservable. And the vast majority of people have already upgraded.

Originally posted by: jex

Originally posted by: JimBodkins
The situation is as follows. Group A cannot use the patch (dual CPU), Group B has no problems (Single CPU). This is fine as long as group A doesnt need to play group B. What are the odds of that....

For the rest, it is almost certain that they must compete unpatched I think.

Oh please. I hate to rain on your alarmist parade, but there are PLENTY of good, patched servers ready and reservable. And the vast majority of people have already upgraded.

Sorry, I just had to add. This is one reason why TWL must step up to the plate on what should happen.

Jex, you obviously dont own any servers. The servers I"m refering to I own and host. There are also plenty of servers out there that arent patched because they are SMP. Gaming Hosts (I hope I have that name right), XGamer, I believe I read Barry's world (One of the 5am servers had this problem and is now back unpatched) and the list goes on. (I just checked and at this point there are a couple hundred servers that are unpatched. Team servers and name pubs).

Do what you want. But when your team can no longer use the servers it has been using for a year, something is wrong and needs fixing. And it's obvious that you are patched and havent checked, but there are also lots of unpatched servers right now. The community is split once again. This time over a failed patch. Wait, that is old news for T2 isnt it.

Every server can run the old patch but not every server can run the new patch.

Tell you what, I'll rent servers to replace servers I already own if you will play on your previous computer rather than the one you currently own. Deal?

Originally posted by: jex

Originally posted by: JimBodkins
The situation is as follows. Group A cannot use the patch (dual CPU), Group B has no problems (Single CPU). This is fine as long as group A doesnt need to play group B. What are the odds of that....

For the rest, it is almost certain that they must compete unpatched I think.

Oh please. I hate to rain on your alarmist parade, but there are PLENTY of good, patched servers ready and reservable. And the vast majority of people have already upgraded.

My server isn't ready or working, and it was the best east-coast Base++ match server in the game (just ask around). In fact, most of the servers I have played on are complete crap thanks to this patch.

I'm really leaning toward mandating a patch downgrade.

I most whole heartedly agree with Jim, the TWL must mandate a rollback to pre-patch until GG gets this fixed.

I installed a temporary server (single proc) so my team would have some playing time on an UNTESTED patch. This is a time for resolve.

Don't let the community degrade further - make the call.


{GeeZ}DeaDBeaT
Hey you kids...GET OFF MY LAWN!

I have already update my server to the patch without problems, I am not looking forward to rolling back. The new patch updated without a flaw but as it is a linux server the update to the 24??? whatever version requires the a and b patch as well just to get it working and several other errors along the way. Maybe the schedule to update should not have been released until it was decided that the patch actually worked.
Post edited by Silvers_Revenge at 10/1/2002 6:05:25 PM

Originally posted by: Silvers_Revenge

I have already update my server to the patch without problems, I am not looking forward to rolling back. The new patch updated without a flaw but as it is a linux server the update to the 24??? whatever version requires the a and b patch as well just to get it working and several other errors along the way. Maybe the schedule to update should not have been released until it was decided that the patch actually worked.

Maybe the patch shouldn't have been released until it was decided that it actually worked.

Why would you even possibly want to hint that we are to blame? Don't be a finger-pointing jerk. Why does everyone feel the need to turn every thread into a flame war?
Post edited by Vlasic at 10/1/2002 6:14:58 PM

At least one server operator has incurred expenses in the thousands just to satisfy his customers. I dont believe he is passing any of that on to his customers. Others may be doing the same. I dont know.

I would suggest that under these unusual circumstances that companies that lease servers work with customers and NOT charge additional fees at this time.

I would also suggest that if you lease a server and the server owner is unwilling to work with you on this that you let the community know who they are. Companies have expenses. Understandable. At this point, were I a server rental company, I would consider billing Sierra before I would bill my customers. Just my opinion.

Tribes 2, the patch, and You. Written by Vlasic

Most of you are aware of the utter nightmare the latest patch has been thus far.

Right now, we're dropping the patch requirement. Furthermore, we are urging all games to be played on the PREVIOUS official patch until there is a fix for the SMP issues from Sierra.

Teams that want to play on patched servers may do so as long as both teams mutually agree, but as of right now, the last official patch is too unstable on SMP servers (READ: Most commercial servers) for us to force a patch.

We also cannot make the patch optional because of the sheer chaos it will create come match time.

We apologize for the nightmare this has become.

Post edited by =TWL= Kodiak at 10/2/2002 6:09:16 PM


^Kodiak
{Rk|Royal Knights

Teamwarfare Tribes2 Renegades Admin
Teamwarfare Tribes2 12-Man CTF Admin
Planet Renegades Site Admin

Originally posted by: Ceiba

I lease my server and have to pay each time I reinstall, most things I have access to and there is no charge to do it my self but a complete reinstall is an item that is charged for.

If you mandate that servers go back to the previous patch will TWL be paying these costs?

Sure, I'll cut you a check from our budget.

WHY EVEN BOTHGER ASKING THIS?????

Originally posted by: JimBodkins
I would also suggest that if you lease a server and the server owner is unwilling to work with you on this that you let the community know who they are. Companies have expenses. Understandable. At this point, were I a server rental company, I would consider billing Sierra before I would bill my customers. Just my opinion.

YES!

Would it not be possible to revert to the second beta patch in order for Classic/TR2 ladders to function?

Or are the betas affected by the dual proc problem?
I really really don't want to be forced to play B++ again if it's the only way to play T2 competitively.

Harlequin_Jester (A)
TF_Harlequin_Jester
Harlequin_Jester+GoD+
[4M]Harlequin_Jester

Originally posted by: Vlasic

Originally posted by: Ceiba

I lease my server and have to pay each time I reinstall, most things I have access to and there is no charge to do it my self but a complete reinstall is an item that is charged for.

If you mandate that servers go back to the previous patch will TWL be paying these costs?

Sure, I'll cut you a check from our budget.

WHY EVEN BOTHGER ASKING THIS?????

Ok, I'll admit it sometimes I don't say the brightest things I was hoping people would read my post and start loaning thier servers for matches until this patch deal gets worked out.
Post edited by Ceiba at 10/2/2002 7:46:37 PM



"Baked, not fried. The healthy choice!"

Team Phantom is letting people borrow our server(s) for matches/practice on a first come first serve basis. This is primarily for base CTF ladders, but I can see about getting other mods (V2, Base++, etc).
Post edited by GreenBeret at 10/2/2002 7:52:50 PM

Originally posted by: GreenBeret

Team Phantom is letting people borrow our server(s) for matches/practice on a first come first serve basis. This is primarily for base CTF ladders, but I can see about getting other mods (V2, Base++, etc).

Cool I will tell the Renegades guys to look ya up :P


^Kodiak
{Rk|Royal Knights

Teamwarfare Tribes2 Renegades Admin
Teamwarfare Tribes2 12-Man CTF Admin
Planet Renegades Site Admin

Originally posted by: Harlequin

Would it not be possible to revert to the second beta patch in order for Classic/TR2 ladders to function?

Or are the betas affected by the dual proc problem?
I really really don't want to be forced to play B++ again if it's the only way to play T2 competitively.

I have done many tests, including the beta patch. It didnt work. (Which means that all that time that only Goaks and someone at 5150 had the beta, we could have identified this problem if the beta had been more broadly available).

Don't know if anyone has noticed, but play on your own computer for awhile against bots. Guess what same problem. This is a bigger issue that type of processor, type of server, there are problems with the patch. When I go online to different servers sometimes it happens sometimes it doesn't and its the same if I'm playing solo. Start-up LAN and play with bots.....good....then bam...bad. And I so loved T2. WTF, hope they fix it fast, or alot of players will be lost for good.

Originally posted by: =TWL= Kodiak

Originally posted by: GreenBeret

Team Phantom is letting people borrow our server(s) for matches/practice on a first come first serve basis. This is primarily for base CTF ladders, but I can see about getting other mods (V2, Base++, etc).

Cool I will tell the Renegades guys to look ya up :P

Ok, if someone asks and point me to a place to download Renegades server files, I'll surely help them.

Originally posted by: JimBodkins
I have done many tests, including the beta patch. It didnt work. (Which means that all that time that only Goaks and someone at 5150 had the beta, we could have identified this problem if the beta had been more broadly available).

Er, are you talking about the same beta patch that a whole pile of us downloaded and installed to try out Classic and v2? How was that not widely available?

Originally posted by: Shoddy

Originally posted by: JimBodkins
I have done many tests, including the beta patch. It didnt work. (Which means that all that time that only Goaks and someone at 5150 had the beta, we could have identified this problem if the beta had been more broadly available).

Er, are you talking about the same beta patch that a whole pile of us downloaded and installed to try out Classic and v2? How was that not widely available?

The problem at hand at the moment appears to be server side. (Although there have been several posts to the contrary. Interesting). And the only servers authorized (By Rodberg) to run this stuff were PNET East, PNET West and a 5150 server being used for TR2 developement. (There may have been a few others). How do 3 (or so) servers constitute widely available in your mind? It strikes me as severely limited. You were client side. Gaming Host (which just had to buy new servers because of this problem) is server side. Trust me. If Gaming Host had been allowed to host the beta, this problem would have shown up 2 months ago. (Or probably would have. It is still possible that core code in vl2's is exacerbating an issue in the exe). But with T2 patched to beta (pure) AND the T2 exe and release everything else (two different tests), my server lag stutters like mad but is smooth like a baby's butt unpatched.

Nothing personal. But it's not just me. It is a large number of server owner/operators. We arent making any of this up and we arent here to flame anyone. We are here trying to find a solution.

(Play patched, you will find servers. Play unpatched, you will find servers. The community is split because of this problem (that server owners cant help) into two camps. Patched and unpatched).

Classic was restricted. TR2 was restricted. But I thought anyone could have hosted a game running the beta patch. When V2 first game out, there were maybe 4 servers running it with the beta patch. There was some server up testing their XL mod with the beta patch. I didn't get the impression that these servers got some special code drop from Sierra. Maybe nobody bothered to try the beta patch on a multiprocessor server during the couple of months it was out.

I think you're right. Nobody did. But somebody should have. Sierra/GG come to mind. I think the problem was that Rodberg was so involved in the Classic/TR2 thing that somehow something fundamental like testing the patch didnt really get done. (At least not thoroughly). They made a public point of testing the daylights out of Classic/TR2. (not a bad thing). And later, as you mentioned, V2 was tested. I dont remember a thread that started something like "Public test of beta patch ...". Maybe I missed it. My impression is that at the time the most important thing about the beta patch was that work could proceed in earnest on Classic/TR2. (Which was a good thing for Classic/TR2).

All I can really say is this. A huge number of server owners knew immediatedly that the patch wasnt working. The day the patch was released. They didnt know why, but they knew there was a problem. It was easy. If THAT had been the beta test instead of release, it would have been a good thing. And it appears this could have happened 2 months ago. (Or so, I'm not sure). We all wish it had. (Including Sierra I suspect).

The server files and the cliebt files were kept seperate for the beta, as far as I know.

Hmm. What a mess. The team I belong to, (Team Peanuts 7man base) has this problem with our duel processor server. Host is Recon Gamer. It has not been rolled back as yet and we have not been able to use it for practice. We were able to borrow a server from a good friend team to get atleast one practice in before our Tuesday night match. The team we played against did not have a patch problem but has yet to install the patch on their server. Most of their team had upgraded there personal machines though to the patch as well as our team. So we borrowed a patched single processor server, the one we practiced on and did the match last night. No problems. Our whole team was prepared to play pre patch or patched though because we backed up or old T2. :-) The whole team. I understand that not all teams did that. But there are servers that can be borrowed. I say conitinue with the mess, having some servers patched and some not. Teams need to work together. Those who cannot get a match issue with this worked out will just have to postpone there match indefinitely until the fix comes or ask the admin to wipe out that particuler challenge. Just my opinion but I think teams can work this out if they try.
Post edited by Doker at 10/3/2002 4:36:42 AM

Hey Jim, question fer ya...
You run a dual proc scsi setup? Just wondering.

I think the patch was either tested on single proc machines, or coded for scsi optimization. Don't know but I'm just wading thru the haystack if you know what I mean...

Originally posted by: milpy/bubi

Hey Jim, question fer ya...
You run a dual proc scsi setup? Just wondering.

I think the patch was either tested on single proc machines, or coded for scsi optimization. Don't know but I'm just wading thru the haystack if you know what I mean...

Well, the system (dual intel) that works is not scsi. But the one that fails is. If this application can tell the difference it should be running in ring 0.