Version 2 ladder Team size and map rotation discussion.

Well its here. The version 2 ladder. Now the fun begins.

First 2 topics for discussion.

1. Team sizes. 12 or 14. Good points for each lets here your thoughts.

2. Map rotation. Going to use the current rotation with new maps added as soon as the patch is official. The current list is as follows.

Vehicle:

Abaddon
Death Birds Fly
Desiccator
Harvester
Katabatic
No Shelter
Sanctuary
Slapdash

Non-Vehicle

Beggars Run
Boss
Damnation
DeadlyBirdSong
Drifts
Minotaur
Pandemonium
Quagmire
Woody Myrk

There are quite a few new maps in the patch pack (this includes the classic maps). Once these are play tested to a greater extent most will be added. Some of the old maps may be looked at and reconsidered at a later date.

Keeper

PS...Lets try to keep this thread sane.

Outstanding!

I would suggest 12 as team size. 10 would have been my ideal choice, but would be happy with 12. I think it would be slightly easier to field 12 than 14 consistently. (IMO)

Map rotation looks good to me. I agree with adding new "patch" maps as they are tested .. Perhaps rotate in 1 or 2 maps off the bat. If they play well, keep them.

Glad to see this happening!

Good work guys.

i think 14 was awesome in ++ and considering the balance involved in v2 and the fact that the physics aren't too different from ++ i think 14 would work well in v2 also.

Go for 12.

Team size I think and odd number is good. ...say 13

I vote to vote out the "Classic" maps! These are WAY overplayed now...

Lets concentrate on the new maps.

For the new maps, Hillside and Lakefront both kick ass under Version2. Magmatic is pretty good too. I'd like to see how some of the resurrected maps would play out, like Desert of Death.

Also, Dust to Dust and other spawn maps play pretty well under V2, since spawners can move respectably fast.





Qing | NetQuick Posse | TriCon2 | Version2

12,13,14. i really disklike a lot of classic maps.

.aX. SeX
+b SeX

I think the team size should be 12 cuz this is trying to semi replace the Base ladder afterall, so 12 would help wtih that.
This is trying to be a inbetween for everyone and the main ladder to not come over to a new system is the base ladder.

12 is my vote, it goes with the theme that V2 is going for.
IMHO at least.

Get rid of Drifts and Death Birds Fly.

-xDauntless[REV]

drop DBF plz

12 or 14 both sound good. I'm partial to 14 because I think a bigger team allows more interesting strats.

As for maps:

1. Quagmire... I hope you mean the X version right?
2. Yeti... has it been fixed for Linux? Yeti rocks.
3. What about some new maps like Blue Moon?

I missed the chance to try out 16-man. Not that I'm asking for that, but I wouldn't mind a very large team size.

15 would be fantastic. Since 12-Base 14-Classic 15-V2. I don't know the issues that caused 16-man to fail so my opinion is a bit uninformed.

b.

I like the idea of 13-man, odd numbers force teams to pick a defensive or offensive, but not neutral stance.

No 7 man ladder? Thats just uck.

($A$)Chyort
http://www.team-sas.com

Originally posted by: Qing

I like the idea of 13-man, odd numbers force teams to pick a defensive or offensive, but not neutral stance.

My feelings exactly. And is there a better compromise between 12 and 14?

DTK

Just an observation. I was on a V2 server when it went to Reversion. I thought it would suck, but it didn't. Didn't exactly rock either, but Heavies were pouring through on foot almost about the same as in Drifts under base/base++.

I guess I'm saying it may not bad to go with a little bit larger map size.

Well I am hearing alot of people talk about 13 for the # of players. (not just on here) So it sounds like something we will look into.

As for the maps. There are 14 new maps in the pack. (not including the classic maps that is) so I am sure alot of maps will be swapped in for older maps. But we cant really say which will work and which wont until they are tested.

Keep

Guys please think about this long & hard. THe higher the # of ppl you require, the fewer teams that can participate. If you keep it at a respectable level (10) you could have that many more teams playing in the mod.

10 isn't that far for a 7 man team to get enough players to participate.. & It's also a good number so some of the 14 man teams could actually field 2 seperate clans for V2. Just a thought. Smaller # = more teams & more fun.

Very true h0m

We have talked about smaller ladders 7/10 man ladder but it all comes down to demand. Lets get one up and running first then we can go from there.

We went to 12 man initially because of roster issues. Many teams face the same problems. We are at the point now that 12 is a little small. Personally I would like to see 14 man. That would allow migration from 12 man base (up) or a switch to/from base++ while preserving base 7 12 man ladders.

I would also suggest a flex roster level for a period of time. This has been done before. (Elsewhere). Define a roster range perhaps with an ideal level (say 10-14 with 14 being ideal). I would also during this period suggest that (with captains agreements) that smurfing rules be winked at in order to potentially even rosters and produce fun matches.

Qing, where have you been? There isnt much room in 12 man for many specialists. People that are versatiles get played. There really isnt much of a difference between MF and LO for example. They need to overlap. If you do play heavy (numbers) D then some of them need to play forward and overlap O. Or an LO that can switch and play HO as needed for example. Odd numbers really dont matter. Versatiles matter.

I sorta like the idea of a 13 man roster myself.
As far as maps go, yea get rid of DBF.
Drifts wouldn't be so bad if the flag area of the base was changed a bit.

14 man

12man!!
Post edited by E q u a k n o x at 9/30/2002 1:33:39 AM

I really like what you have done with this mod. It addresses several issues with T2 and you seem to be very open about listening to the communities legitimate gripes. I am sure the ladder will be outstanding in sportsmanship and gameplay. I vote for 13 man and a 7 man ladder. ++ just doesnt play right anymore. Seems alot like base used to be. Slowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

10 or 12 IMO


-Veni Vidi Vici- 7-Man Base CTF Team Malevolency 14-Man Classic Universal Assassins 7-Man Classic"In my younger years, I was very conceited. But that's all changed now, because now... I'm perfect."

With the extra speed now in V2, perhaps we should consider some of the larger maps that were dropped from competition early on.

I think many of the larger maps that were dropped due to the relative slowness of base and the input of the folks that lobbied for maps that were very close and had open flags. I would like more variety in maps, including some that have closed flags that are more difficult to get to. This would test the difference in gameplay in V2 with regard to more coordinated actions needed to clear a path for the carrier and make for a more involved strategy.

The changes in gameplay that V2 offers may warrant a re-evaluation of some of the maps that didnt work well for competition in base.

14 man = more options, if teams can manage.

I like the rotation, though I'd add Reversion. And I wouldn't change the Drifts flag area as that is the most unique feature of the map.

I would like to re-add big maps like Reversion, maybe even Arch (if the tank/UE problem is fixed) but would first like to have a some scrims/PU's on it to see just how feasible they really are. They are a ton of fun in pubs but so was thin ice at one time...lol.

Once again don't forget there will be a ton of new maps added once they are play tested. Then we will have to decide which ones to drop make room for the new ones.

Keep

The more I think about it, I like the idea of an odd numbered roster. 11 or 13 sounds like fun.

Thanks Keeper. I have been trying out the new maps and many of them seem like they would be great for the v2 ladder.

Keep up the good work gents!

Given the choice of 12 or 14, I prolly would have gone for 14, but mostly because we've got a roster sufficient to fill that. 13 is an interesting concept, though. I think I'll vote that way (just because its different?). For the smaller ladder, the 7-man certainly is popular and fun. I'd lean more toward that than 10. Map rotation looks great for a start. Lets look into the new maps and re-evaluate the bigger maps too, though. You can never have enough maps :p

Here are the ones I like, after going over them all

Considerations for Version2 maps:
Faster skiing means big, hilly maps will play quickly
Better vehicles means flat, vehicle maps can make use of havocs
Faster spawn armor means maps w/o inventory stations are more playable
Small hilly maps are a fragfest, probably best to avoid them
Water maps are more playable, with the way armors move through water more quickly

Good choices:
Katabatic
Hillside
Lakefront
Confusco
Surreal
Magmatic
Titan
Shockridge
Starfallen
Damnation
Sub-zero

Questionable:
Sandstorm
Acid Rain
Gorgon
White Dwarf

Old maps given new life:
Archipeligo
Quagmire
Dust To Dust

Probably too small:
Minotaur
Firestorm

Forget it:
Ramparts

Dust to Dust would be good if the flag was moved to where the energy pack spawns. If not .. you can never get that flag out of there. (In pubs yes ... matches no)

Along the line of flags outside .. I still like Firestorm where the flag is outside blowing in the wind. Makes for a really exciting fast paced game.

I like the idea of unlucky 13 man - LOL

(PS - Qing - hopefully your talking X maps where available right ? Quag with out the x still sucks no matter how you cover it with yummy V2 sauce)
Post edited by AnonymousOne at 9/30/2002 2:04:52 PM

I vote 14 Man. I think DxM should be included in the map rotation. The fact that it gets played alot doesnt make it a bad map for comp.

JU

Desert of Death > DTD by a big margin. Otherwise I'm all about getting some new maps in.

Rilke, ascetics aside, drifts is a problem. In our last match we played not 1, not 2, not 3 but 4 overtimes on drifts. In the end the opponenet had 3 HoFs and we were running an offense of 8 (of 12). I'm thrilled you love the flag placement. Frame it and put it on your wall. It isnt appropriate for competition unless the map is changed.

I like 12-14, either one works for me, the 13 idea is coolz.

My vote is to toss DBF and Drifts, or move the flag out of the base.

Flag inside base = no fun. Not that you can't get it with teamwork, but WTF, we show up at night taking time out of our lives and time away from loved ones to play a game we are all addicted to, might as well make it a fun expeirience for those of us that just show up to play and have fun kicking ass.

I say flag inside = ban!

Okay...so far we have.

1. Team sizes - 13 is what I am hearing most. Lets give it a shot. (Still looking into a 7 man as well)

2. Maps. Toss DBF and Drifts. Re-add Reversion. Continue to play and test the new maps for addition as soon as possible (some of the new maps are outstanding some just leave you wondering)


So far thats the general concensus. Now if we could get the patch finalized and released we can start playing

Keep


Post edited by {NQP!}Keeper at 9/30/2002 4:50:09 PM

You going to hold off on matches until the next T2 patch? Or let 'er rip when the 'C' build of Version2 is ready (hopefully tonight).

Any word on this next patch? When? Or should I even ask.

jb,Flex ladders are a great idea.

I saw this idea on another ladder. They allowed for X numbers of people say 13 people. If both teams had enough players for 15, then a 15 vs 15 match would occur instead.

U can probably do that now with match comms. Explicitely stating that this is a 13-person Flex ladder could give teams the incentive to consider fielding more players for each match.

Limit is 13-players
or
The lowest # of players both teams can equally field.

b.
Post edited by bloc at 10/1/2002 1:11:13 AM