I would like to start a League here in TWL and drop the ladders. I've spoken with Sephy, and we're going to make schedules that don't overlap TWL with STA or visa versa.
Well, unlike when fuel or deek post, I'll be nice to cakes, not because I like him more than them, but because his mom gives me favors'o'plenty. (Well then, I guess no more than fuel's or deek's, but... they are a little plumper than Ms. Cakes.)
Aside from all that, down to business. New league. I likey. The reasons why I likey are pretty simple. I enjoy OGL, TWL and STA, but each has issues with it. Seems to me that the more times we try new leagues/ladders, the more often we'll be able to try and get it right.
I don't think it's really possible to have a perfect league or ladder. There will always be problems inherant on a game that has its flaws built into the game, as almost any game does, UrT without (the smallest teenie-weenie bit of) exception. There are lag issues, map issues, computer issues, and all of these will make any league/ladder less than it could be (, a LAN).
So, in my estimation, before anything, map selection and format should be the primary aims. With ladders, it's frustrating waiting for a team to come off rest only to find someone has already challenged them. But with (some) leagues, it's brutally obvious that the scheduling is only a tool of the admins to allow them to keep up. *cough*
Map selection on the other hand is something that I don't think can ever be right. Teams and players will always like/dislike maps. Recently, I've been shown (thanks E) that maps I previously thought HORRID are amazingly delectible in comparison. I'd only ask that maps be judged on fairness of bases, how well the map was coded (to kill my fucking computer), and how much lag plays a part in the map. On DNA's most recent foray into Sands, unlike ALL past experiences with the map, lag played NO part whatsoever. Whether that is due to the (for once) fantastic coding of SIDs (you do know that SIDS is sudden infant death syndrome?), or just because we were all relatively the same ping, I don't know. I'd very much like Sands to be Riyadhed though. AKA SMALLER.
Format... wow, not sure. I'd like choice in maps but I don't want to get into a SANDS/TWINLAKES2/MINES-fest with some shitball clan because they have great comps and can't count their FPS with fingers and toes. But then again, I'd rather not be forced by some asshole admin to play an evenly ranked clan on a map my clan hates. (Not that you'd ever be an asshole to Clan DNA, Cakeypoo!) So not sure.
if TWL becomes a league, we'll be doing 1 map per night, like STA. i personally am not to fond of playing more than 1 map for a competition and i've gotten similar responses from many other clanmembers.
as far as maps go, i've got that covered. not only will i be making a smaller map selection, i will probably ask most of the clans i know which maps are their favorites in case i missed a good one. i will probably go no more than 10-12 maps for each gametype.
Yea map selection for a league should be pretty small, preferably 1 map per week, with no duplicates. To be honest, I really dont feel like playing Rommel AGAIN in STA this week, when there are a ton of other good (better?) maps out there that havent been played.
The reason the TeamWarfare ladders have such a diverse map rotation, is because there were already 3 leagues/ladders playing the same damn 10 maps out there! A little diversity never hurts, there are no playoffs, no 'finality' to a ladder. If you lose rung 1 because you were forced to play maps you normally didnt (or dont prefer), well then you just challenge them a week later and win it back
When the league conversion goes into effect, a much smaller, more defined map rotation will be put in place.
Also, for those of you who havent noticed, all ladders and leagues now have a 'Rant' section. Keep in mind its PUBLIC so dont post servers there, mainly for gg's/you suck/camper bitches! type posts. Also included in there is a built in prediction system so when league play kicks off we will have built in predictions for each week. Its anonymous, but you can always add any comments on the rant board section Post edited by Indica at 1/22/2003 6:09:42 PM
I think dropping the ladders would be a big mistake. Why not run both ladders and a league simultaneously? If it's a manpower issue consider this an offer of assistance.
Ladders are *much* friendlier to newbie clans (and I'm not using "newbie" contemptuously) or clans who want to keep their commitment to competition low for whatever reason. Right now joining OGL is the membership path for these clans, STA is far too intimidating, and they probably just don't know about TWL.
The fact that the Urban Terror OGL ladders exist at all in spite of all their problems is also proof that some teams, and I'd put my team in this category, like ladder play in and of itself. The ladder style has its ups and downs just like a more traditional league but the different flavor has a lot of value.
To sum up, I think the intrinsic values of a good ladder and the potential for making the OGL UT ladders obsolete by doing everything they do, better, are reasons for keeping the ladders around. I'm quite certain many others feel the same way - I only stumbled across the little bit where cakes mentioned getting rid of the ladders, and it would be easy to miss.
ps xtort, we heard that the server we played sands with you guys on a while back was being DOSed... which was at least PART of the problem
ROFL Yodle... are you serious about server being DOSd? I don't even remember which server we were playing on, but I remember same thing happened on two servers. Regardless, whoever was DOSing doesn't have any bandwidth to toss about if they only make the server choppy for 20 second incremements.
As far as limited maps... sure. But just try and be friendly to people w/ not-so-hot comps. If every other map is intermodal/sands/twinlakes2 fps/lag-hoggish... count me out. Tired of big, poorly coded maps.
And as for ladders, I agree w/ Yodle. (You could say that Yodle has the newbie angle down pat. ROFL!) Ladders are great to get yourself into the game. Tough to just jump into a tourney as a new clan and do anything but get SO raped that your clan stops playing. There's no fun in that. In ladders, really evil competition is always at the top (or at spot #11 if you are ONE particular *#$(@#@ ladder) and clans need to work their way up to get there. So as for dropping the TWL ladder, don't. I do, however suggest 20 minute map times, cuz 30 minutes just sucks ass.
Beyond that, sign us up. You can be sure we'll be heard when map selection raises its head. Oh, and by the by, city gardens is a fun map.
ROFL Yodle... are you serious about server being DOSd? I don't even remember which server we were playing on, but I remember same thing happened on two servers. Regardless, whoever was DOSing doesn't have any bandwidth to toss about if they only make the server choppy for 20 second incremements.
That was the excuse given, at least. Server admins tend to be really defensive when you point out their server is falling over badly. It's not like I saw server logs or anything, but I heard that a few different places were DOSed that night. Maybe the server was just vomiting on itself when it saw how badly we were playing Sands.
I stand by everything I said about the ladders even though xtort agrees with me. They ought to be tweaked in a few ways, but ought to be kept around. Just turning TWL into a wannabe-STA is missing an opportunity, IMO. Create a wannabe-STA league AND tweak the ladders.
I even agree with xtort about city gardens. One of the few good fast-action CTF maps in urban terror. Post edited by Yodle at 1/31/2003 3:17:42 PM
Yea personally I dont see a reason to drop the ladders. All the work is done, they just 'run themselves' now
Cakes and I plan to have some more discussions on this, we hope to reach final decision sometime next week.
Citygardens does rock Thats why I added it to the rotation. Brings back the good ol days of q3ctf1 and my supreme pwnage of the atrium
Keep up the discussions guys, if the community continues to give us input, we WILL listen and build a league/ladder system tailored to what YOU guys all want. My personal preferences mean little.
Cheers! - indica TeamWarfare: Battlefield 1942 Lead Ladder Admin, Urban Terror Admin Silicon Soldiers: Team Leader - #sis on irc.progameplayer.com
I've changed the CTF map list. Citygardens is horrible, so i took that off. LOL. That style was great in Q3 CTF, but for UrT it's a joke. too much time fighting in the middle. it's Dragoon's 4th version of PGrounds, and PGrounds-Day is the best of them all.
I also changed the map lists for CTF and TS because not many teams really wanted to play some of the maps we had. plus, i wanted to have all the STA and TWL League maps in there, since just about every team has told me that they use ladders for "practice".
I brought Sands back into league competition. I figured, it would be a great testimate to it's legacy.
Yea, thing is, half those maps were voted in by the community. /me shrugs
The maplists look fine now and should be more consistent with the other (inferior) leagues - indica TeamWarfare: Battlefield 1942 Lead Ladder Admin, Urban Terror Admin Silicon Soldiers: Team Leader - #sis on irc.progameplayer.com
We will be on the ladder shortly, as soon as prick figures out what he has to do to get us signed up lol. Post edited by {KHuDA}Sinist3r at 2/4/2003 9:49:41 AM
Word will come soon! (along with a ruleset, etc).. Soon being within the next week.
I helped Prick get ownership of KHuDA back last night, once he signs up for the team we will give him ownership. (KHuDA was at one time registered here)
Lookin forward to seeing you on the battlefield! - indica TeamWarfare: Battlefield 1942 Lead Ladder Admin, Urban Terror Admin Silicon Soldiers: Team Leader - #sis on irc.progameplayer.com
I've changed the CTF map list. Citygardens is horrible, so i took that off. LOL. That style was great in Q3 CTF, but for UrT it's a joke.
Cakes, of the four people to comment on the map in this thread, three of them really like it. You're in a minority. Just thought I should point that out, since you've been (pretending to?) listen to player feedback regarding the map lists. :/
/me pours Yodle a big cup of - indica TeamWarfare: Battlefield 1942 Lead Ladder Admin, Urban Terror Admin Silicon Soldiers: Team Leader - #sis on irc.progameplayer.com
sands? Dont make me puke!!!! Sands is a terrible match map, its hardly tollerable in a pub with 10 on 10 much less a match with 6 on 6.
Lets try something other then the base 10 thats what I liked about this ladder. Throw in Laberinto, forest and a few other less played but good maps.
And whats wrong with the 3 map rotation that we play on TWL ladder right now, I really like the idea of some rotation, yeah I understand that there are alot of maps that are one sided out there, but then that map should not be in the rotation.
sanc is a bad map.. unbalanced.. it wasnt even designed for CTF play.
Aus, play it more often. you are actually wrong about it being unbalanced. it's not unbalanced, just each side is very different. Sephy and i both agree it's match-worthy and you'll be happy to know that Sanc will be in STA Season 5 (replacing Docks). :P
The 'Join' wont work just yet, as the rules have not been posted. I will have the rules up within the next few hours, so hang tight for a little bit and we'll be stylin! - indica TeamWarfare: Battlefield 1942 Lead Ladder Admin, Urban Terror Admin Silicon Soldiers: Team Leader - #sis on irc.progameplayer.com
Rules are up and the league is now open for signups!! Go get your teams registered today! :0 - indica TeamWarfare: Battlefield 1942 Lead Ladder Admin, Urban Terror Admin Silicon Soldiers: Team Leader - #sis on irc.progameplayer.com
I know I have a long-standing history of doing this, but:
"The CTF Ladder has also been changed: Abbey (11), Paradise (15), PGrounds-Day (16), Riyadh (13), Rommel (15), Sanctuary (13), Sands (20), Subway2 (14), Twinlakes2 (13)."
Where the bejesus did that come from? I know you want to not complicate the STA league and mirror its map choices and everything, but the reason I enjoyed TWL was the diversity. There were like 20 maps for the ladder, and even though we bitched endlessly when maps that we didn't like came up, it was still a blast. Now you're eliminating the ladder completely and narrowing the map choice. Grandtasticlar.
Anyone remember when TWL put up that huge maplist vote that got dozens and dozens of hits of people voting which maps were good and which ones were shit? You do? Well SCREW empirical data!
Most of those maps are terrificly fun and traditional. The ones that concern me after playing this season in STA are: Sanctuary (left field, anyone?), Subway2 (many would argue that the original Subway, now dubbed Subway1, was vastly superior, which pains me to admit since I am very good friends with the creator of both), and Twinlakes2.
I know, I know: "dna sucks on Twinlakes2; of course you don't want it in there." I'm sure a small fraction of my distaste for this map stems from that fact. But the majority of it comes from the fact that the map is garbagefucktrashrapeworthlesscock. Why are there invisible, impenetrable shields around every tree? Who the fuck doesn't know how to properly clip their map? And the gameplay is horrific on it. I guarantee dna isn't the only clan, after having had their asses handed to them, to think that this map should be ejected from any and all match play permanently. I used to despise Sands, and I still don't like it, but I at least recognize its indisputable superiority over Twinlakes2.
Anyhow, I think unestablished and undesirable maps should be subject to vote. Hell, put the entire map list to a vote if you want. That's what I pushed for in STA, and you're using their map list for your league, so maybe it's time for a revote to flatten out the wrinkles.
It's beneficial, perhaps even vital, to a league's survival to have the majority of its participants actually want to play on match night. Food for thought.
Signs of the apocalypse: when people agree 3:1 up front with you that a map is good and its discarded with a "LOL" and an "I hate that map." (ala Sephy + Laneway, Cakes + Citygardens)
Once I convince cakes of keeping the ctf ladder alive (at least) then we'll revert to the old maplist
/me grabs a rope and goes to find cakes. - indica TeamWarfare: Battlefield 1942 Lead Ladder Admin, Urban Terror Admin Silicon Soldiers: Team Leader - #sis on irc.progameplayer.com
Tell me what makes you think ut_sanc is so balanced? I've yet to meet a person who thinks that it is.
Seriously, it seems as though you have just decided empirically decided to put it in regardless. If thats the case say so. But, lets really have a serious think about it.
Aus Post edited by AusBloke at 2/7/2003 1:21:46 AM
/me keeps mouth shut as he's never even played sanc - indica TeamWarfare: Battlefield 1942 Lead Ladder Admin, Urban Terror Admin Silicon Soldiers: Team Leader - #sis on irc.progameplayer.com
i'll add some more maps to the CTF Ladder list, mmmkay?
Aus: why is sanc balanced? on a pub, that map is horrible to play on, much like Rommel. but, for matches, it's nicely balanced. it could use a few tweaks here and there, but overall i feel it's ready to be matched on.
first off, the map isn't open, so it takes a bit of teamwork to get through. there are enough routes to run the flags, provide cover and hold a good position. problem is, no one plays this map on a pub with more than 10 seconds as a respawn, which destroys the delecacy of the map. you and i played the other day together (i was aliased) and blue had pushed red so far back into their spawn, it was basically a stalemate for 30 minutes. that was a bad example of that map. the respawn was set to low, there was no pay-off for killing the enemy. [e] has scrimmed and practiced this map and i've found that with the right spawntimes, this map is one of the best around for CTF. it's even a good TS map. Post edited by [e]cakes at 2/7/2003 6:33:03 PM
"ok, i added Sliema, Docks and Druglord2 for now. i'm going to look into Uptown, but i need to test respawn times first."
Sweet. Not to sound greedy, but what if you ultimately decide to keep the ladder, what if you reinstate the ENTIRE map list? That would be sweet...er. Sweeter.
Or let people vote on 10/12/14/however many maps they'd like to play. Like, whichever vote receives more than 50% in favor gets included or something. Just a hopeful suggestion.
i personally don't think that most of the maps that were used before are even good enough for matches, even on a Ladder. and i don't want people to start getting pissed off when they have to play DVille, Druglord and Golgatha for their map selection.
as a team co-leader, i wouldn't want to have to play all the maps in urt. i would rather play the ones that were polished, or at least somewhat polished. it just doesn't feel like a match when playing a map like After Hours.
As an Admin, i don't want the selection too large. I've already received complaints about some of the maps listed. Of course, i have to listen to the community and try to please everyone in some respect. But, i also became an admin because i don't want to see the competition decline on ladders like, say OGL.
If memory serves me, Golgotha and Dville received more than 50% approval rate, in spite of their flaws. Why? Because they are fun for a ladder. Likewise, according to the most recent "Map List" posting in the forum, After Hours and Druglord1 were never part of the most current map rotation, so that's an entirely moot point.
What about CityGardens? What about Laneway2? Mines? Reykjavik? Subway1? Turnpike? Uptown? All (debatably) fun, and most of which (save for the obvious 2) are relatively untested for tournament-style play. It would be a good opportunity for a testbed, if anything. Some of those maps seem to have real potential. Mines and Uptown were even included in STA's original maplist, but after Sephy agreed to a community-wide vote, they were replaced with the more traditional. Since this is merely a ladder, however, you could afford to be more flexible. Who knows, maybe those overlooked maps could be the savior of UrT (God knows it's going to need one before long).
"i personally don't think that most of the maps that were used before are even good enough for matches" -- Your personal feelings should have no bearing on this whatsoever. You can't make a statement like that and then back it up with "The rotation is too large anyway," and "I have to please the community," because we all now know where the real answer lies.
Instead of using the guise of "I'm doing it for the community" and then subsequently ignoring what everyone says, I still think you should put your money where your mouth is and open up a vote to those teams participating in the ladder. Let them/us decide what maps we like. Hell, I'll take the liberty of spamming the voting URL to every single individual person on the ladder roster to get the word out and make sure the votes aren't lopsided. I mean, really:
a) it's a ladder, so it doesn't really count for anything but practice anyway
b) you could keep the core map list to not interfere with STA, but throw in the other ones that people enjoy playing
c) keeping people interested is how to keep it flowing smoothly, otherwise it just feels like a chore
I think I've done enough arguing for the time being, though.
Just one more thing... please don't claim you like to play polished maps and then turn around and keep Twinlakes2--a map with 40-foot invisible forcefields around every tree. Unless, of course, your definition of "polished" means something along the lines of "never got to beta test."
i've actually been thinking about putting back in classic Riyadh and Subway1.
I've added Turnpike. It has a new version being worked on, hopefully it will solve some of the issues the map has right now.
Reykjavik, Golgatha and CityGardens are not going back in.
Mines might be considered, depending on the update, whenever that comes.
Laneway2 has such a serious FPS problem and it's not balanced very well. i would rather not see it in any competition with those kinds of flaws.
Uptown is definately going to be added, but i need to test the spawntime first. maybe >dna< will scrim [e] and we can figure it out together.
TWL isn't some crappy place for competition, i care about the content or i wouldn't have become an admin. this is my chance to make it what i envision a good ladder to be. i see your point, which is why i've added more maps. Post edited by [e]cakes at 2/10/2003 4:20:40 AM
i've actually been thinking about putting back in classic Riyadh and Subway1.
Riyadh classic would be very appreciated. It would also be a pretty ballsey move since SID is likely to bitch about it. But who knows, maybe they'll get the point that they fucked up a pretty good map.
I've added Turnpike. It has a new version being worked on, hopefully it will solve some of the issues the map has right now.
Not to be an annoying dick, but why not wait until AFTER the map doesn't totally blow to include it?
Cakes, your opposition to city gardens seems pretty mindless to me. It's great that you and sephy think it sucks lol, but a lot of us have had some really great games on that map. Playing phear on citygardens was one of maybe three fun matches we've had in the last few months.
The opposition to golgotha and reyjavik seems more reasonable since the majority of people who've played them don't like the maps and they're really pretty bad in general. Golgotha is particularly poorly suited to TWL ladder play since it definitely has a strong side and *both* teams don't typically get to play the strong side. Not as much a problem in a league where one map is played on both sides.
Thanks for reading. Post edited by Yodle at 2/10/2003 11:21:43 AM
i don't really care what SID thinks if i put Classic Riyadh back into competition. we all know it's a great map.
About CityGardens. it's a strange redo of the original Q3CTF map and i think it doesn't translate well. My other problem with it is that i don't ever see it anywhere in UrT, other than being on the map selection here. i'm trying to add maps that people actually play around the game. it's hard enough to practice the maps that are included now, it's even harder for teams play maps they don't usually see. Post edited by [e]cakes at 2/10/2003 12:42:40 PM