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Should we continue?

Historical capture recovered from the Wayback Machine · captured 2011-02-10 · 90 posts
Given the mess that happened last night, is there a point in moving forward? If half the teams are not able to show for the matches, then it becomes almost pointless. I've reconsidered the losers bracket in light of last night. I think we'd do well to ge the remaining teams to show up and play. In regards to ringers and bfpro, the teams can make up their own minds on their respective matches. Your call.

Clayman
TeamWarfare Senior Operations Director
Email: clayman@teamwarfare.com
IRC: #teamwarfare, #twl_bf
We would like to continue. I believe the final 4 teams will have 8 players show up.
Please don't give up on us again
Originally posted by: ddubxxiv
We would like to continue. I believe the final 4 teams will have 8 players show up.
As I stated in my post on the results thread, we've combed out the bad apples. The 4 teams that moved on had whole teams ready to play, so wouldnt it be safe to assume if they could do it last sunday they could do it next sunday? As for continueing after the tourney I also sugguest we scale down the size format. With the exception for Creams team its my udnerstanding everyone could have fielded teams of 6 last night; making the success rate of this operation high enough to go on without any snags.
Finish the whole thing. All the teams that had issues are out.

But if you could change something now, you should completely cut out BFPro so that there are no more problems with it.
Originally posted by: NAZGÛL
But if you could change something now, you should completely cut out BFPro so that there are no more problems with it.


I just don't understand how downloading two files and pressing install is difficult.
Originally posted by: Stepside
Originally posted by: NAZGÛL
But if you could change something now, you should completely cut out BFPro so that there are no more problems with it.


I just don't understand how downloading two files and pressing install is difficult.


It's proven to be unstable for many players. A game shouldn't be played competitively on a mod with the equivalent stability of a game in its alpha stages.
Post edited by NAZGÛL at 11/8/2010 1:02:40 PM
Originally posted by: NAZGÛL
Originally posted by: Stepside
Originally posted by: NAZGÛL
But if you could change something now, you should completely cut out BFPro so that there are no more problems with it.


I just don't understand how downloading two files and pressing install is difficult.


It's proven to be unstable for many players. A game shouldn't be played competitively on a mod with the equivalent stability of a game in its alpha stages.


It's not the mod as much as it is windows vista/7 compatibility issues with BF'42 a whole. I've been playing on my old laptop (has XP on it) cause im sick of all the crash to desktops.
Originally posted by: Tony Montana-
Originally posted by: NAZGÛL
Originally posted by: Stepside
Originally posted by: NAZGÛL
But if you could change something now, you should completely cut out BFPro so that there are no more problems with it.


I just don't understand how downloading two files and pressing install is difficult.


It's proven to be unstable for many players. A game shouldn't be played competitively on a mod with the equivalent stability of a game in its alpha stages.


It's not the mod as much as it is windows vista/7 compatibility issues with BF'42 a whole. I've been playing on my old laptop (has XP on it) cause im sick of all the crash to desktops.


I've considered installing XP on either this or another machine. But BF1942 is relatively stable on vanilla if you close Xfire. BFPro, however, is a complete mess regardless.
lets play.
Nazgul and Tony, I hear ya. I had the same thing when I reinstalled. Not to patronize, but I wanna make sure you and your guys are doing this:

1) Right click on the executable BF file (tank logo)
2) Go to properties
3) Click Compatibility
4) Check "Run this program in compatibility mode
5) Select Windows XP Service Pack 3

Since I've done that I haven't had one crash to desktop on Windows 7.

Originally posted by: NAZGÛL
Originally posted by: Tony Montana-
Originally posted by: NAZGÛL
Originally posted by: Stepside
Originally posted by: NAZGÛL
But if you could change something now, you should completely cut out BFPro so that there are no more problems with it.


I just don't understand how downloading two files and pressing install is difficult.


It's proven to be unstable for many players. A game shouldn't be played competitively on a mod with the equivalent stability of a game in its alpha stages.


It's not the mod as much as it is windows vista/7 compatibility issues with BF'42 a whole. I've been playing on my old laptop (has XP on it) cause im sick of all the crash to desktops.


I've considered installing XP on either this or another machine. But BF1942 is relatively stable on vanilla if you close Xfire. BFPro, however, is a complete mess regardless.


BFPro is definitely not a mess, BFPro gave 1942 a few more years of life and as soon as competitions stopped using it, teams stopped showing up. Not using BFPro could be the reason this game is dead, competition wise!
Post edited by ibemacin at 11/8/2010 1:41:17 PM
Originally posted by: ibemacin
Originally posted by: NAZGÛL
Originally posted by: Tony Montana-
Originally posted by: NAZGÛL
Originally posted by: Stepside
Originally posted by: NAZGÛL
But if you could change something now, you should completely cut out BFPro so that there are no more problems with it.


I just don't understand how downloading two files and pressing install is difficult.


It's proven to be unstable for many players. A game shouldn't be played competitively on a mod with the equivalent stability of a game in its alpha stages.


It's not the mod as much as it is windows vista/7 compatibility issues with BF'42 a whole. I've been playing on my old laptop (has XP on it) cause im sick of all the crash to desktops.


I've considered installing XP on either this or another machine. But BF1942 is relatively stable on vanilla if you close Xfire. BFPro, however, is a complete mess regardless.


BFPro is definitely not a mess, BFPro gave 1942 a few more years of life and as soon as competitions stopped using it, teams stopped showing up. Not using BFPro could be the reason this game is dead, competition wise!


Ibe,

What OS do you use? If it is the stated with window's 7 or vista please reinstall it and use it. You'll see what we are talking about. IDC about the gameplay I am concerned with the constant crashing it does when maps changes or glitches it does because of the OS systems. Thanks.
Originally posted by: umad?
Originally posted by: ibemacin
Originally posted by: NAZGÛL
Originally posted by: Tony Montana-
Originally posted by: NAZGÛL
Originally posted by: Stepside
Originally posted by: NAZGÛL
But if you could change something now, you should completely cut out BFPro so that there are no more problems with it.


I just don't understand how downloading two files and pressing install is difficult.


It's proven to be unstable for many players. A game shouldn't be played competitively on a mod with the equivalent stability of a game in its alpha stages.


It's not the mod as much as it is windows vista/7 compatibility issues with BF'42 a whole. I've been playing on my old laptop (has XP on it) cause im sick of all the crash to desktops.


I've considered installing XP on either this or another machine. But BF1942 is relatively stable on vanilla if you close Xfire. BFPro, however, is a complete mess regardless.


BFPro is definitely not a mess, BFPro gave 1942 a few more years of life and as soon as competitions stopped using it, teams stopped showing up. Not using BFPro could be the reason this game is dead, competition wise!


Ibe,

What OS do you use? If it is the stated with window's 7 or vista please reinstall it and use it. You'll see what we are talking about. IDC about the gameplay I am concerned with the constant crashing it does when maps changes or glitches it does because of the OS systems. Thanks.


Sorry can't find all my install disks so I can't confirm. My apologies if I am wrong in my assumptions and it appears as though I am. Being as old as this game is I am not shocked of all the problems created by Windows 7 not only for just vanilla issues but the issues with BFPro as well. I'm too big of a supporter of BFPro I guess. Good luck with the tournament guys, I hope everyone has a good time in it, wish I could do it!
All of the teams left in the tournament had enough players to play last night. Yeah we should continue.

Originally posted by: tehnilla
As I stated in my post on the results thread, we've combed out the bad apples. The 4 teams that moved on had whole teams ready to play, so wouldnt it be safe to assume if they could do it last sunday they could do it next sunday? As for continueing after the tourney I also sugguest we scale down the size format. With the exception for Creams team its my udnerstanding everyone could have fielded teams of 6 last night; making the success rate of this operation high enough to go on without any snags.


6v6 on CQ with vehicles would be pointless. 8v8 is as low as it goes unless you want infy only matchplay.
Originally posted by: umad?
Originally posted by: ibemacin
Originally posted by: NAZGÛL
Originally posted by: Tony Montana-
Originally posted by: NAZGÛL
Originally posted by: Stepside
Originally posted by: NAZGÛL
But if you could change something now, you should completely cut out BFPro so that there are no more problems with it.


I just don't understand how downloading two files and pressing install is difficult.


It's proven to be unstable for many players. A game shouldn't be played competitively on a mod with the equivalent stability of a game in its alpha stages.


It's not the mod as much as it is windows vista/7 compatibility issues with BF'42 a whole. I've been playing on my old laptop (has XP on it) cause im sick of all the crash to desktops.


I've considered installing XP on either this or another machine. But BF1942 is relatively stable on vanilla if you close Xfire. BFPro, however, is a complete mess regardless.


BFPro is definitely not a mess, BFPro gave 1942 a few more years of life and as soon as competitions stopped using it, teams stopped showing up. Not using BFPro could be the reason this game is dead, competition wise!


Ibe,

What OS do you use? If it is the stated with window's 7 or vista please reinstall it and use it. You'll see what we are talking about. IDC about the gameplay I am concerned with the constant crashing it does when maps changes or glitches it does because of the OS systems. Thanks.


IDK what you're talking about. I've been getting glitches and crashes from the Vanilla battlefield game since I reinstalled it a couple months ago. Bf Pro has nothing to do with it

Originally posted by: Dirty Speirs
Originally posted by: tehnilla
As I stated in my post on the results thread, we've combed out the bad apples. The 4 teams that moved on had whole teams ready to play, so wouldnt it be safe to assume if they could do it last sunday they could do it next sunday? As for continueing after the tourney I also sugguest we scale down the size format. With the exception for Creams team its my udnerstanding everyone could have fielded teams of 6 last night; making the success rate of this operation high enough to go on without any snags.


6v6 on CQ with vehicles would be pointless. 8v8 is as low as it goes unless you want infy only matchplay.


I mentioned my awareness of said fact in a post on the other thread, but fact is theres no better solution in this current state, because realisticly we only have 4 teams 8v8 capable. Maybe ww should try 5v5 inf and 2v2 tank and air ladders?
Originally posted by: tehnilla
Originally posted by: Dirty Speirs
Originally posted by: tehnilla
As I stated in my post on the results thread, we've combed out the bad apples. The 4 teams that moved on had whole teams ready to play, so wouldnt it be safe to assume if they could do it last sunday they could do it next sunday? As for continueing after the tourney I also sugguest we scale down the size format. With the exception for Creams team its my udnerstanding everyone could have fielded teams of 6 last night; making the success rate of this operation high enough to go on without any snags.


6v6 on CQ with vehicles would be pointless. 8v8 is as low as it goes unless you want infy only matchplay.


I mentioned my awareness of said fact in a post on the other thread, but fact is theres no better solution in this current state, because realisticly we only have 4 teams 8v8 capable. Maybe ww should try 5v5 inf and 2v2 tank and air ladders?


Yeah, if you want to make the teams smaller you really have to go to 5v5 inf.

Guys, BFpro has nothing to do with the issue most are having. It is mainly a DirectX issue with BF42. BF42 was designed for DirectX 8. Win 7 uses DX version 10 and 11.

An inconsistant trick that seems to work, is to run Xfire, and start your game using Xfire. BUT, you must disable ingame controls and overlay. One you do that the game is stable again, or at least as stable as it was in XP.

I say move forward with the Tourney. I busted my ass to get people to particpate, I don't care to walk away from this after the time involved.

P.S. Clay, can you get 5th to report their loss/forfeit?
Originally posted by: Tony Montana-
Originally posted by: NAZGÛL
Originally posted by: Stepside
Originally posted by: NAZGÛL
But if you could change something now, you should completely cut out BFPro so that there are no more problems with it.


I just don't understand how downloading two files and pressing install is difficult.


It's proven to be unstable for many players. A game shouldn't be played competitively on a mod with the equivalent stability of a game in its alpha stages.


It's not the mod as much as it is windows vista/7 compatibility issues with BF'42 a whole. I've been playing on my old laptop (has XP on it) cause im sick of all the crash to desktops.


It's both. Win7 makes it crash and bfpro makes it crash twice as much.

There's no other game around that would survive in any kind of competition doing this.
Originally posted by: TankPanZeR
Guys, BFpro has nothing to do with the issue most are having. It is mainly a DirectX issue with BF42. BF42 was designed for DirectX 8. Win 7 uses DX version 10 and 11.

An inconsistant trick that seems to work, is to run Xfire, and start your game using Xfire. BUT, you must disable ingame controls and overlay. One you do that the game is stable again, or at least as stable as it was in XP.

I say move forward with the Tourney. I busted my ass to get people to particpate, I don't care to walk away from this after the time involved.

P.S. Clay, can you get 5th to report their loss/forfeit?
Originally posted by: Stepside
Nazgul and Tony, I hear ya. I had the same thing when I reinstalled. Not to patronize, but I wanna make sure you and your guys are doing this:

1) Right click on the executable BF file (tank logo)
2) Go to properties
3) Click Compatibility
4) Check "Run this program in compatibility mode
5) Select Windows XP Service Pack 3

Since I've done that I haven't had one crash to desktop on Windows 7.


I've ran bf42 and bf42.exe this way and had zero luck. I notice no difference between what you did and doing nothing other than running as administrator. Are you running 64bit Win7?

I also have a Dx11 vid card (ATI 5870)
Post edited by Quagmire: at 11/8/2010 2:33:58 PM
Originally posted by: Quagmire:
Originally posted by: Stepside
Nazgul and Tony, I hear ya. I had the same thing when I reinstalled. Not to patronize, but I wanna make sure you and your guys are doing this:

1) Right click on the executable BF file (tank logo)
2) Go to properties
3) Click Compatibility
4) Check "Run this program in compatibility mode
5) Select Windows XP Service Pack 3

Since I've done that I haven't had one crash to desktop on Windows 7.


I've ran bf42 and bf42.exe this way and had zero luck. I notice no difference between what you did and doing nothing other than running as administrator. Are you running 64bit Win7?


An inconsistant trick that seems to work, is to run Xfire, and start your game using Xfire. BUT, you must disable ingame controls and overlay. One you do that the game is stable again, or at least as stable as it was in XP.

I would agree that BFPro has something to do with my crashes. I loaded BF42 about 6 weeks ago and played it off and on with no issues(Crashes). But as soon as I learned about BFPro I loaded it and played and crashed several times. Mainly when I hit the escape key to get back to my profile. Although it crashed prior to the match last night(because I changed my ingame name to match the clan, after I was ingame). However I did not have any crashes once I played so I was thankful for that.
Not digging on BFPro, we just all know that BF42 and BFPro was not made/tested in WIN7.
Originally posted by: GEN_T_Dog
I would agree that BFPro has something to do with my crashes. I loaded BF42 about 6 weeks ago and played it off and on with no issues(Crashes). But as soon as I learned about BFPro I loaded it and played and crashed several times. Mainly when I hit the escape key to get back to my profile. Although it crashed prior to the match last night(because I changed my ingame name to match the clan, after I was ingame). However I did not have any crashes once I played so I was thankful for that.
Not digging on BFPro, we just all know that BF42 and BFPro was not made/tested in WIN7.


My game crashes are completely random. Sometimes it'll be perfectly fine, sometimes it'll crash once or twice in a row and be fine after that, sometimes it'll crash 7 times in a row before I rage quit and beat up Cyak. I've had little luck joining through xfire either although it seems to crash a little less when I do. Sometimes I'll alt tab and be perfectly fine and other times I'll alt tab and my game will refuse to come back up so I have to ctrl+alt+delete and turn it off.

I've tried switching CDs with Daemon Tools and I can't tell if it makes a difference because of how random the crashes are.

All of the crashing and problems I have are completely random and have been happening since I reinstalled the game a couple months ago

We'll keep the tourny rolling with the 4 remaining teams with an 8v8 format. BFPro will be used unless both teams decide it's not in their best interest.



Clayman
TeamWarfare Senior Operations Director
Email: clayman@teamwarfare.com
IRC: #teamwarfare, #twl_bf
Originally posted by: -Sesshomaru-


My game crashes are completely random. Sometimes it'll be perfectly fine, sometimes it'll crash once or twice in a row and be fine after that, sometimes it'll crash 7 times in a row before I rage quit and beat up Cyak. I've had little luck joining through xfire either although it seems to crash a little less when I do. Sometimes I'll alt tab and be perfectly fine and other times I'll alt tab and my game will refuse to come back up so I have to ctrl+alt+delete and turn it off.

I've tried switching CDs with Daemon Tools and I can't tell if it makes a difference because of how random the crashes are.

All of the crashing and problems I have are completely random and have been happening since I reinstalled the game a couple months ago

Yeah I have the same issue but again it only seemed to start after BFPro. Again I am not complaining, I was just putting my experiences out there since I reinstalled BF42.
Originally posted by: Quagmire:
Originally posted by: Stepside
Nazgul and Tony, I hear ya. I had the same thing when I reinstalled. Not to patronize, but I wanna make sure you and your guys are doing this:

1) Right click on the executable BF file (tank logo)
2) Go to properties
3) Click Compatibility
4) Check "Run this program in compatibility mode
5) Select Windows XP Service Pack 3

Since I've done that I haven't had one crash to desktop on Windows 7.


I've ran bf42 and bf42.exe this way and had zero luck. I notice no difference between what you did and doing nothing other than running as administrator. Are you running 64bit Win7?

I also have a Dx11 vid card (ATI 5870)


Yep, Windows 7 64
we could have definitely had more teams that would have been able to field 8 this tournament. Teams should have been more like RSG by combining two clans if they couldnt field 8 ( like TLB, sBs, MG, 5th MR, DS?) im curious why a team like WAKE wouldnt play. if its becuase of ownzr i dont see the point. they could have been one of the later teams to join so they could avoid them until the finals. also there were about 15+ posts on the forums of players looking for teams, barely any got picked up. Also regarding BFPro, it was the cause of two of DA's players crashing, and im sure this affected other players/teams too. I just dont see the point of using a "pro" mod in an 8 year old game. Lastly, i think the times and dates should have been decided between each teams. Having a definite date and time is hard on both teams to field teams this late in competition for BF. I guess this is something to think about next tourney if we have one.
Originally posted by: !yourstruly!
we could have definitely had more teams that would have been able to field 8 this tournament. Teams should have been more like RSG by combining two clans if they couldnt field 8 ( like TLB, sBs, MG, 5th MR, DS?) im curious why a team like WAKE wouldnt play. if its becuase of ownzr i dont see the point. they could have been one of the later teams to join so they could avoid them until the finals. also there were about 15+ posts on the forums of players looking for teams, barely any got picked up. Also regarding BFPro, it was the cause of two of DA's players crashing, and im sure this affected other players/teams too. I just dont see the point of using a "pro" mod in an 8 year old game. Lastly, i think the times and dates should have been decided between each teams. Having a definite date and time is hard on both teams to field teams this late in competition for BF. I guess this is something to think about next tourney if we have one.


DA = 42D + QLS
Post edited by NAZGÛL at 11/8/2010 4:57:02 PM
Originally posted by: NAZGÛL
Originally posted by: !yourstruly!
we could have definitely had more teams that would have been able to field 8 this tournament. Teams should have been more like RSG by combining two clans if they couldnt field 8 ( like TLB, sBs, MG, 5th MR, DS?) im curious why a team like WAKE wouldnt play. if its becuase of ownzr i dont see the point. they could have been one of the later teams to join so they could avoid them until the finals. also there were about 15+ posts on the forums of players looking for teams, barely any got picked up. Also regarding BFPro, it was the cause of two of DA's players crashing, and im sure this affected other players/teams too. I just dont see the point of using a "pro" mod in an 8 year old game. Lastly, i think the times and dates should have been decided between each teams. Having a definite date and time is hard on both teams to field teams this late in competition for BF. I guess this is something to think about next tourney if we have one.


DA = 42D + QLS



yea i know that.. we had 8 but becuase of BFPRo we only had 6-7 in the first round. Im saying that other teams could have done the same. Theres also some other teams out there that didnt participate. i remember seeing some team scrim an 8v8 vs TLB recently( why wouldnt they play in the tournament?) another team like sBs has 12 players in the revival group. teams like MG and 5thMR could have comnbined with other teams to field 8( or pick up the players who posted on the forums which really no one did)
Originally posted by: !yourstruly!
we could have definitely had more teams that would have been able to field 8 this tournament. Teams should have been more like RSG by combining two clans if they couldnt field 8 ( like TLB, sBs, MG, 5th MR, DS?) im curious why a team like WAKE wouldnt play. if its becuase of ownzr i dont see the point. they could have been one of the later teams to join so they could avoid them until the finals. also there were about 15+ posts on the forums of players looking for teams, barely any got picked up. Also regarding BFPro, it was the cause of two of DA's players crashing, and im sure this affected other players/teams too. I just dont see the point of using a "pro" mod in an 8 year old game. Lastly, i think the times and dates should have been decided between each teams. Having a definite date and time is hard on both teams to field teams this late in competition for BF. I guess this is something to think about next tourney if we have one.


Wake didn't put a team up because all but like 2 people in the clan are burned out of comp and just want to pug until the game dies. That and the only people who can play for wake have to be in the clan. I completely agree as far as the times go. MG has enough people as long as times are flexible. Last night, out of the guys we had practicing a couple of days ago, 3 had last minute unavoidable RL conflicts, myself included. 1 was working till 10ish i think, and 1 had class, and suddenly we were down to 4-5 and needed ringers. Had times been flexible, a common time/day could have been found that the most people could attend easily.

Also, of those people who posted in that thread, a number of them posted and just stopped watching and never went on xfire.
hell ya we should continue. Why let some no shows derail this bitch. Teams still in this can get things sorted out, pickup a few stragglers from teams that cant field players and drive on.
An inconsistant trick that seems to work, is to run Xfire, and start your game using Xfire. BUT, you must disable ingame controls and overlay. One you do that the game is stable again, or at least as stable as it was in XP.

Originally posted by: NAZGÛL
Originally posted by: Tony Montana-
Originally posted by: NAZGÛL
Originally posted by: Stepside
Originally posted by: NAZGÛL
But if you could change something now, you should completely cut out BFPro so that there are no more problems with it.


I just don't understand how downloading two files and pressing install is difficult.


It's proven to be unstable for many players. A game shouldn't be played competitively on a mod with the equivalent stability of a game in its alpha stages.


It's not the mod as much as it is windows vista/7 compatibility issues with BF'42 a whole. I've been playing on my old laptop (has XP on it) cause im sick of all the crash to desktops.


I've considered installing XP on either this or another machine. But BF1942 is relatively stable on vanilla if you close Xfire. BFPro, however, is a complete mess regardless.


lmao

There is no different affect on the operating system from mod to mod. If BF1942 crashes/runs like shit on your computer running Windows 7, so will BFPro. Likewise, if it does not - then it won't run like shit.

I have BF1942 & BFPro installed on my Windows 7 64 Bit machine, and it's crashed twice during play. The only real issue I've had is occasionally PunkBuster, as you can't seem to even find support files on their page for this game anymore.

People need to stop making excuses as to why they can't install TWO FILES onto their computer that drastically IMPROVE gameplay in EVERY ASPECT of the game. I don't know about you - but playing Vanilla is about as fun as sticking a pen through my dick.

BFPro adds new textures, improves the classes (WOW THE ASSAULT CLASS CAN BE USED?), and prevents pixel aiming. What the hell is not to like about that combination? It's almost like playing a new (and improved) game.

Less excuses, more playtime. Maybe someone could host a BFPro public server or a server which runs decent map rotations for the remaining competitive public?

iakalaM? ¦ #teamdynamic ¦ teamdynamic.biz
Malakai, you're wrong. My BF1942 works perfectly fine playing vanilla on Win7 64-bit after making adjustments and driver updates. BFPro crashes repeatedly using the same settings and drivers. The results are not consistent between vanilla and BFPro from player to player. This has already been stated by myself and other players.
Originally posted by: NAZGÛL
Malakai, you're wrong. My BF1942 works perfectly fine playing vanilla on Win7 64-bit after making adjustments and driver updates. BFPro crashes repeatedly using the same settings and drivers. The results are not consistent between vanilla and BFPro from player to player. This has already been stated by myself and other players.


I still believe you're just doing something wrong. I've owned 3 different computers and used 4 different operating systems in the time since I first installed this game, and I never had any problems - from the disgusting excuse of an OS that was Windows Millennium, to Windows XP, Vista & Windows 7. By far, Vista was the worst.

Regardless, I also can't help but feel that you've always disliked BFPro.

Whether this tourney runs with BFPro or not doesn't really matter to me, I'm simply playing for shits and giggles. But it seems illogical to me to blame BFPro for all your problems when clearly people in the same situation as you have none.

Understandably, Sess and others have had issues too.. but I doubt that BFPro is to blame in any situation. The mod doesn't change enough in the game to justify such claims.

Do yourself a favor & download and install Desert Combat and see if it crashes. If it does, it's not BFPro - it's your system's setup - which is on you.

I do agree however, that this game is mighty old and BFPro is affecting the participation of the tournament then it should be removed altogether.

iakalaM? ¦ #teamdynamic ¦ teamdynamic.biz
Originally posted by: NAZGÛL
Malakai, you're wrong.