Tournament rules/gameplay discussion

I'd like to see this more competitive than recent events. So first, I am purposing 2 changes:

1.) Planes only carry a single bombing load. After dropping, the pilot must reload at the airfield.

Reasons for change:
The last twl season of 42 had people asking for no pilots and ground only. More teams were without pilots than with pilots. I would expect that in the 2 years without any competition that the number of match pilots has even further decreased. Also, I am realistic enough to realize no one will be willing to train a new pilot for this tourney.

By limiting the amount of bombing a pilot can do, we can keep matches more reasonable if a team doesn't have any air. At the same point in time, a good pilot will be able to take down a key piece of equipment with their single bomb.

In addition to making closer matches, I think this will remove the endless arguments over pixeling planes since it won't matter as much.

I am relatively sure that this can be done server side (like some servers do with lower the number of grenades carried).

2.) Server ready for live 20 minutes before match start. If the match starts at 8, then the server should be ready by 7:40 (map loaded, every setting correct, password for match enabled). Players from the opposing team can join and make sure everything is correct. If something is wrong, then the opposing players must point it out. If everything is not correct by 7:50, then the home team forfeits server choice.

Reasons for change:
Certain teams wouldn't have their server ready for a match on time. The settings would be wrong and fixing everything would take an hour. People would start leaving. If we have strict rules governing when a server must be ready by, then we can insure prompt and correct match start times.

The plague of matches starting 30 mintues to 2 hour late must stop.

Other things:
-No BFPro. It is too much of a hassle (download size, server installation, ect). It is just too much work to get this going.

-I'd like to limit the number of teams in the tourney to 8. The first 8 teams to sign up get to play. The community is not big enough to support a 16 team tourney. If your team doesn't make the cut, join another team to make sure they have enough.

Format discussion:
I would like to play 3 maps each week. Scoring would be by map. Each team would play both sides a single time. The team with the most tickets wins the map. Rounds would be limited to 20 minutes, so it won't take so long.

You add stupid rules that cant really be enforced yet are opposed to the single best thing to ever happen to Battlefield competition: Bfpro.

I completely disagree with your proposals.
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www.team-cRucial.com

if you dont like flying go play COD. Flying is what made 1942 fun; secondly since this is only a tourny and not a league the number of teams wont matter, trust me you can get 16 teams assuming all the old school clans realize this is going on. lastly i agree with lithoss
Post edited by 9Canadian9 at 10/9/2010 10:06:30 PM

Originally posted by: 9Canadian9
if you dont like flying go play COD. Flying is what made 1942 fun; secondly since this is only a tourny and not a league the number of teams wont matter, trust me you can get 16 teams assuming all the old school clans realize this is going on. lastly i agree with lithoss

Well, in jeremy's defense, I dont think he dislikes flying, i think he's trying to nerf planes in 42 vanilla a little. I'm not going to disagree with the need, but there are better ways IMO (pssst like bfpro )

Plus the late starts do get annoying. But there are already forfeit rules for late starts etc. People just need to not be afraid to actually use them.
Post edited by Lithoss at 10/9/2010 10:15:35 PM

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www.team-cRucial.com

Originally posted by: 9Canadian9
if you dont like flying go play COD. Flying is what made 1942 fun; secondly since this is only a tourny and not a league the number of teams wont matter, trust me you can get 16 teams assuming all the old school clans realize this is going on. lastly i agree with lithoss

k3/ownzr has pilots.

Half the matches we play in aren't competitive because the other team doesn't have pilots. In the last season, people were asking to play ground only.

Originally posted by: Lithoss
You add stupid rules that cant really be enforced yet are opposed to the single best thing to ever happen to Battlefield competition: Bfpro.

I completely disagree with your proposals.

Both rules can easily be enforced. One is a server side mod and the other is just a rule to prevent late starts.

lets just play.

Trust me you wont get a competition going a stupid ass rule such as only bombing once and having to "reload" sorry this is a video game not real life, and trust me when I say you wont get ANY pilots to play if you do that.

I sure as shit won't follow that rule

Originally posted by: -Sesshomaru-
I throw nades on ghetto

So, the solution everyone else sees is:
1.) Plenty of pilots
2.) BFpro

So, this will play out like that last 3 seasons where we play one competitive match? Awesome. I doubt the rest of ownzr supports this idea, but all of ownzr is sick of playing in boring matches. It has completely killed our motivation to even play.

And BFpro is a terrible solution. Half the teams will bring back players who haven't played in 5 years who just reinstalled. They won't have bfpro installed at match time and the other team will ask to play without bfpro. So, we will either have to make them forfeit or not play. With only like 8 teams, no one is going to force a forfeit.

The only thing I can really see as something we should address before we get into this is the pixeling. I think we should ban that right off the bat. Consistently, some of the worst threads started on this forum are from teams who just got booted from the playoffs after getting pixeled to death on baxe. I think on some maps pixeling is really not that big of an issue, but on others it certainly is. Either way, we need to put an end to that debate right away and just ban it before its too late and there's a 30 page thread on it when we're in the playoffs.

Nade/expack spamming and stuff of that sort I really don't have a problem with since I love to partake in it myself lol. But BFPro solves all those problems so why not use it? Also, the thing I love most about BFPro is that it makes the assault class relevant again as a legitimate all purpose infantry option. Cause let's be honest, after 1.3ish vanilla '42, its pretty much only used as support once you get a team pinned in their main (ie Berlin) or a single flag (ie Bocage nearest flags for axis/allied).

the only problem i see with bfpro is it is just one more thing people are going to have to download. dont get me wrong, i love bfpro, but the installation process for 1942 is retarded enough now with evenbalance dropping support for it.

Originally posted by: tzarjeremy

Originally posted by: -Sesshomaru-
I throw nades on ghetto

Do you think old school teams want to comeback to some shitty rules modifying the game they loved back in the day? The only thing I see here is another infantry player crying about how dominant pilots can be. It's sad really because I've played with jagzed and ddub and I know you all know about angling APC's and manning flak guns to get those pilots down.

It is telling though that you want to limit a pilots ability to bomb but won't partake in bfpro that prevents limitless nade spamming by the infantry.

Originally posted by: -Sesshomaru-


Do you think old school teams want to comeback to some shitty rules modifying the game they loved back in the day? The only thing I see here is another infantry player crying about how dominant pilots can be. It's sad really because I've played with jagzed and ddub and I know you all know about angling APC's and manning flak guns to get those pilots down.

It is telling though that you want to limit a pilots ability to bomb but won't partake in bfpro that prevents limitless nade spamming by the infantry.

I don't really understand your troll response. I clearly stated my point was to lessen the role of pilots. My team has good pilots and wins because of this. My post wasn't some clever way of getting another championship. I just want to play 5 or so organized matches of battlefield that are actually competitive.

Originally posted by: tzarjeremy

Originally posted by: -Sesshomaru-


Do you think old school teams want to comeback to some shitty rules modifying the game they loved back in the day? The only thing I see here is another infantry player crying about how dominant pilots can be. It's sad really because I've played with jagzed and ddub and I know you all know about angling APC's and manning flak guns to get those pilots down.

It is telling though that you want to limit a pilots ability to bomb but won't partake in bfpro that prevents limitless nade spamming by the infantry.

I don't really understand your troll response. I clearly stated my point was to lessen the role of pilots. My team has good pilots and wins because of this. My post wasn't some clever way of getting another championship. I just want to play 5 or so organized matches of battlefield that are actually competitive.

Your pilots aren't what wins you games. It's your situational awareness that wins games. When jagzed and Ddub go down you all hop on something that shoots planes down and light up the other teams pilots allowing yours to get up.

The point is that pilots aren't as dominate as crying infantry and tankers make them out to be. A well organized team can hop on flak, get on the machine guns on top of their tanks and APC's and light up the first plane to dive bomb something.

If you want to cry about something cry about the guy sitting next to the nade box throwing nades into the middle flag at Stalingrad because people are too lazy to take 2 minutes to install BFPro

OWNZR WILL WIN

Time to whip out the stick...

I like jeremy's idea but I think one bomb nerfs planes to near uselessness. A smart team would not use their planes in those circumstances. I think 4 bombs would still justify their use.

Is such a change easy to implement server side? If not, forget about it.

4 bombs per plane would very significantly change the strategy of the game... might be fun.
Post edited by Karamaz0v at 10/11/2010 1:48:54 AM

It's silly to change a game that is so old, its one thing to learn how to play the game on this new way, its another to completely reinvent it after years and years, dont change shit you will ruin this revival.

I donno why you guys have such a big problem with the planes.. We shouldn't change anything with vehicles, it wouldn't be '42.
Post edited by Tony Montana- at 10/11/2010 11:06:00 AM

Originally posted by: Tony Montana-
I donno why you guys have such a big problem with the planes.. We shouldn't change anything with vehicles, it wouldn't be '42.

The two teams with the best pilots don't feel like having 3-4 completely irrelevant matches...and playing each other in the semifinals or finals again?

Originally posted by: tzarjeremy

Originally posted by: Tony Montana-
I donno why you guys have such a big problem with the planes.. We shouldn't change anything with vehicles, it wouldn't be '42.

The two teams with the best pilots don't feel like having 3-4 completely irrelevant matches...and playing each other in the semifinals or finals again?

You have a very good idea, although it would probably have to be tweaked to somewhere around what Kara was saying, which was 4 bombs. It's simple to mod in, although everyone hosting a match would have to download the updated map and replace the "vanilla" one.

One thing you are noticing, as I had when I tried to change a few things when the ladders were last up, is that even though it might make the game better, it also ruins the game in certain peoples minds.

Just like eliminating pixeling for the first minute evened gameplay up, at least at the start of play, it was still hated by many because THEY knew how to do that, and figured if others are too stupid to know, then it's their loss.

Same goes for this, as most pilots will fight every word you say because to them they have learned their craft, and to have it even handicapped a little, tells them you want to dumb the game down to a level where "noob" non-pilots can compete too. Too many people will find this unacceptable.

This is why some leagues manage to keep this game alive and TWL can't. Too many here won't take change, and so the old argument continues on.
Post edited by Quagmire: at 10/11/2010 7:07:46 PM

Originally posted by: Quagmire:
It's simple to mod in, although everyone hosting a match would have to download the updated map and replace the "vanilla" one.

Just the server, correct?

I would like to see everything mod-wise to be done server side, as to avoid bfpro installation issues. Just creating one large file for the server to install seems ideal.

I think the following things can be fixed server side, but I am not positive:
-Move/remove some ammo boxes
-Slow grenade reload on battleaxe and stalingrad
-Add some spawn options (add places to easily camped spawns, place spawns near vehicles)

Originally posted by: Quagmire:

Just like eliminating pixeling for the first minute evened gameplay up, at least at the start of play, it was still hated by many because THEY knew how to do that, and figured if others are too stupid to know, then it's their loss.

I am fine with removing pixeling by modding. I don't support any rules which are enforced on trust or fraps. I think most of the pixeling issues can be fixed by moving some vehicles; I would even help play test this if you want to mod them.

I completely agree with your second proposal.

The first one (one bomb per load) is nuts. I might be able to get behind limiting the bombs to edit: 10 (default is 15, I think), but 1 bomb per load is a bit extreme.

Just be good on flak and be good on MGs.

We can't handicap an entire position just because not every team will be strong there.

Teams can overcome a disadvantage in the air with smart ground play.



Post edited by Dirty Speirs at 10/11/2010 3:06:29 PM

Yes, this can be done just server side.

I would suggest leaving two-seater aircraft unchanged, but limit single seaters to 5 bombs. This would help to limit the abilities of the single seater pilot yet make him able to be effective when not dogfighting or trying to eliminate the two-seaters.

Now would you want 5 bombs total or plane can reload like normal, just have 5 bomb capacity?

I have a person who can do all of this.

Check some server side mods out here:

168.144.18.153:14567 (running the best Gazala map out there)

They include:

1. Mobile spawn points (apcs)
2. Remote control planes (find the kettenkrad and honk the horn)
3. Jet Packs
4. Sniper packs (binocs) call in arty (well, actually a gaggle of flying jeeps)

Originally posted by: Quagmire:
Yes, this can be done just server side.

I would suggest leaving two-seater aircraft unchanged, but limit single seaters to 5 bombs. This would help to limit the abilities of the single seater pilot yet make him able to be effective when not dogfighting or trying to eliminate the two-seaters.

Now would you want 5 bombs total or plane can reload like normal, just have 5 bomb capacity?

I have a person who can do all of this.

Check some server side mods out here:

168.144.18.153:14567 (running the best Gazala map out there)

They include:

1. Mobile spawn points (apcs)
2. Remote control planes (find the kettenkrad and honk the horn)
3. Jet Packs
4. Sniper packs (binocs) call in arty (well, actually a gaggle of flying jeeps)

Sweet. I'm hopping in the Ilyushin

whatever is decided, i will field a team. i just think itd be best if we all just played the game like it is. shrek, hit me up on xfire sometime.

Don't change the game. No one wants to play a game that is a billion years old with modified rules for pussy's

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iakalaM? ¦ #teamdynamic ¦ teamdynamic.biz

Originally posted by: iakalaM?
Don't change the game. No one wants to play a game that is a billion years old with modified rules for pussy's

get out of here you stupid ginger

Originally posted by: ddub24

Originally posted by: iakalaM?
Don't change the game. No one wants to play a game that is a billion years old with modified rules for pussy's

get out of here you stupid ginger

lmao oh malakai rep that ginge

was wondering when he was gonna show his ugly mug

Originally posted by: 9Canadian9
was wondering when he was gonna show his ugly mug

you too.

I think I'm rather cute.

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iakalaM? ¦ #teamdynamic ¦ teamdynamic.biz

I agree with the ginger kid, modifying the planes is complete pussy shit.

The point is moot anyways since no TWL admin is going to agree to change the game that drastically.

If people have a problem with the planes, the solution is simple, don't play 8v8. Go look for a 5v5 inf match.

So uh, whats wrong with downloading BFpro again? Isnt it 2010, and we still are having trouble with downloading shit?

Ok so changing the rules to make it more fun for ownzer I can see why you say that. But lets not forget you screamed murder when shrek tryed to change the rules on TWL ladder.

Thing is we need one pure site where we can put BFPro on every player on a roster must have it downloaded and installed before joining a team... If they don't no waiting start of match for them to install it.

I never played BFPro but I heard it was the best mod for competitoin. Lets give it a try whats to lose?
-----------------------------------------
look at sig rules

There's really no excuse. Everyone coming back to play this knows about BFPro. Let's make it easy for people to get to. Maybe a sticky on the forums? Have it required in the rulebook. No exceptions (ie if two teams agree to play vanilla then it's ok). No, we can't have that if we're gonna use BFPro.

Originally posted by: tehnilla
So uh, whats wrong with downloading BFpro again? Isnt it 2010, and we still are having trouble with downloading shit?

^^^^^
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www.team-cRucial.com

Originally posted by: Tony Montana-
The only thing I can really see as something we should address before we get into this is the pixeling. I think we should ban that right off the bat.

Just so we're clear - when you mention banning pixeling, you are referring to only those shots at the start of a round which are used to take out key vehicles or hit key spawn points? If so, that is easy to moderate.

I only mention this because the arty is a key component to many maps - eliminating its use would completely change the dynamic of some maps.


For example - on bataxe, hitting the planes at start of match would certainly be considered a pixel shot. However, using the arty mid match to suppress a spawn point, AA or enemy tanks, even if you cannot "see" them, is not necessarily pixeling - some people have just honed their ability to hit key areas without the need for a sniper to call in a target.

I think the term "pixeling" has different meanings to different people and i think it should be clarified if you want to ban certain aspects of its use. Otherwise, anyone who uses the arty is going to get called for pixeling by the other team...


-Sins

I am definitely not discrediting arty because on certain maps such as bulge/baxe/tobruk/aberdeen its certainly plays the role of x factor and its nice to see. But at the same time I think we need to get rid of the destruction of key vehicles off spawn. Like the planes on Baxe and Kursk for example.

I won't sit here and say I've never pixeled in a match, cause I definitely have and it provides lots of lawls on ventrilo, but I'm just sick of so many people complaining about it once the matches start to matter in the playoffs and a match that would otherwise be pretty competitive is ruined by pixeling. Just really don't want to see or hear about that this time around. But it's up to all you to determine what we do about that. I'm completely for arty being used on spawn locations, as long as its not a pixel.

So I suggest, you can hit anything/anywhere on the map with arty as long as:

A: The arty can be visibly seen from the location its bombs are landing.
OR
B: If you are outside that range, you must have a spot from a sniper. And the spot must be screenshotted.

The problem with B is that it can cause all kinds of issues regardless. The arty man may already knows the pixel and the team may have a sniper "take a spot" just to "follow" the rule, even though its not being used. But at the same time, a spot from someone is who pixeling far away would have to come from someone closer to the action, so that may give the opposing team an advantage on close combat maps like baxe.

The more I think about it, I really believe the only way to enforce pixeling is to have option A as the only rule and be done with it. Eliminate all the gray areas.

fucking dumb. just play how we've always played.