BFPro - Savior or Mistake?

I don't create threads often, but I felt this one is serious enough and is an issue that should probally have some debate.

I feel something is wrong about BFPro. When BFPro was created it was supposed to fix most of the problems in BF1942, it did. However, it was never widely accepted by the community. When you go looking for servers to play on, you don't look for BFPro ones. Why? Because there aren't any, atleast any that have people in them.

When I go to practice for a match, I also like to go pub on clan servers prior to a match. With BFPro, I can't do this because there is no one playing it in pubs. In order to really practice in pubs, I'd have to play BF1942, which is different from BFPro, meaning that my practice would be somewhat worthless.

BFPro is a great idea, but if it's not widely accepted by the community as a standard for pubs, why should it be accepted as a competition mandate? Yes, I know, why not schedule a scrim? Well, scrims only come here and there.

One more thing, if you're going to make BFPro mandatory for 2-3 ladders, you matter aswell make it mandatory for ALL ladders. I don't know if the armor was changed in BFPro, but it would be incredibly difficult to juggle things. For instance, say that they took out the Tiger's rocking (supposed to be a planned change), in matches I wouldn't have the rock because of BFPro, so when it came to play my 2v2 tank in regular BF1942, I'd be a little rusty. Jumping from one mod where everything was different to the other would be confusing and would serious screw with my aim.

Regards,
-|USF|-malakai
Post edited by malakai_ at 9/7/2004 2:36:16 PM

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.ßetã.·mälakai ¦Ð¦
Email: mobius002 at gamebox.net
IRC: #desolation, #bfradio

LeGun: "Nades or no nades HOT would be any team in existance."

Good post. Not sure what the answer to the problem is though...
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[§soþ]

Very well thought out post, I agree 100%

But wtf would they take out the tigers rock!!!!!!?????

The ballistics are the only thing that keep u from hitting those big tiger tracks. If ur moving fast enough u don't even rock.

Bf pro is way diferent from normal BF. ITS A MOD! DC is also a mod. go put BFpro the mod that it is in a diferent ladder. And if alota people go to it then so be it. all pro is, is some guys that got sick of counting on EA and decided to try and work out some of the problems by themselfs. Well, if your gonna try to change the game it needs to be done thru a patch. Untill then it shouldnt be considered as normal Battlefeild, it isnt.



Hërb | Xfire: herbster

NCG New Centruy Gamers
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"What does it profit a man to gain the world and forefit his soul" SB4lyfe

I don't know, some people complain about how the Tiger rocks so BFPro was looking into removing it in the future. I totally agree, most people look at the rock of the Tiger as a disadvantage, however it can be a true advantage when your opponent misses that well-needed tread shot.

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.ßetã.·mälakai ¦Ð¦
Email: mobius002 at gamebox.net
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LeGun: "Nades or no nades HOT would be any team in existance."

thats true, but let ea fix it, it still accounts as a mod.



Hërb | Xfire: herbster

NCG New Centruy Gamers
BFRadio
"What does it profit a man to gain the world and forefit his soul" SB4lyfe

Being a mod or not does not matter. In the end EA IMO is finished with BF42, I would not expect any more patches. Besides it is not game "problems" that BFpro should be trying to fix. I think in the most part they are trying to level the maps out for better competition.

I do agree that if people want BFpro to be the "mod" it can be we the community needs to support it. This means we need to be running our pub servers with those maps in rotation. What is the worst that can happen. You don't get the smacktard that just picked the game up in the bargain bin playing on the server.

I try to run my server on the map of the week if it is a BFpro map so my guys can get a feel for it. But we never see anybody join us. Even when we have 10-12 guys in it already.

I think if we give it time BFpro will be more widely accepted in pub play. I for one am all for it. Keep up the good work guys!

Originally posted by: malakai_
...
I feel something is wrong about BFPro. When BFPro was created it was supposed to fix most of the problems in BF1942, it did. However, it was never widely accepted by the community. When you go looking for servers to play on, you don't look for BFPro ones. Why? Because there aren't any, atleast any that have people in them.

When I go to practice for a match, I also like to go pub on clan servers prior to a match. With BFPro, I can't do this because there is no one playing it in pubs. In order to really practice in pubs, I'd have to play BF1942, which is different from BFPro, meaning that my practice would be somewhat worthless.

BFPro is a great idea, but if it's not widely accepted by the community as a standard for pubs, why should it be accepted as a competition mandate? Yes, I know, why not schedule a scrim? Well, scrims only come here and there.

One more thing, if you're going to make BFPro mandatory for 2-3 ladders, you matter aswell make it mandatory for ALL ladders. I don't know if the armor was changed in BFPro, but it would be incredibly difficult to juggle things. For instance, say that they took out the Tiger's rocking (supposed to be a planned change), in matches I wouldn't have the rock because of BFPro, so when it came to play my 2v2 tank in regular BF1942, I'd be a little rusty. Jumping from one mod where everything was different to the other would be confusing and would serious screw with my aim.

Regards,
-|USF|-malakai

Please don't take this the wrong way, but the only "problem" I see is that your team isn't scheduling scrims. It's fairly easy to set up as many scrims as often as you'd like... with only a minimal amount of effort.

Bfpro is the same game, there's not really anything at all to adjust to aside from the map layout ... and less of a dependency on nades and super mines. Plus the wrench works right.

It is, as you've agreed, perfectly suited for competition, which is why we use it. It may not be "widely accepted" by the pub community at large, but the competitive community overwhelmingly approves of it.

#kcw we may have some time to scrim?

SAD HERB, sad. You think EA is going ot put out another patch? We're trying to do that over at pro and it's more like a patch than a mod.

You're right about servers though, we need to get more servers running BfPro. I know I would prefer to play pro in pubs too. We need to find people willing to run the server as such. It was voted in for competition and most love it. Just a question of pubbers really.
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Email = Andural69@yahoo.com
#bfpro on gamesurge

"Seth: Did they look like psychos? Is that what they looked like? They were vampires. Psychos do not explode when sunlight hits them, I don't give a fuck how crazy they are.", From Dusk Till Dawn

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Originally posted by: «¥»kKk«¥»DEMONFLY
Its not kkk its kKk get it right

Originally posted by: FumigaTor

Please don't take this the wrong way, but the only "problem" I see is that your team isn't scheduling scrims. It's fairly easy to set up as many scrims as often as you'd like... with only a minimal amount of effort.

We do schedule scrims, and we do play them. I'm not saying that scheduling scrims is a real problem, and if you believe that you are sadly mistaken. I'm saying that BFPro shouldn't make incredible gameplay tweaks. The Tiger's rock is fine, the fact that it shoots it's ass is fine. The Corsair not being able to go 100 mph faster then the Zero is fine.

The fact is, there are alot of people recommending tweaks for things that don't need to be tweaked. Also, BFPro may be accepted for competition, but finding anyone to play it outside of competition is a difficult task. You may not be someone who pubs often, but I don't always want to play scrims in a damn mod that should be more widely accepted before we make it a competition mandate. Still to this day not many people accept it, some want BF1942 to stay the way it is.

You can't force a mod on people. If we're going to use the mod, it should be used in a seperate ladder/league. Those who want to use it can use it, those who don't won't. If people are forced to use this mod in 2-3 competitions, it'll have to be forced in all competitions - something many people don't want happening.

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.ßetã.·mälakai ¦Ð¦
Email: mobius002 at gamebox.net
IRC: #desolation, #bfradio

LeGun: "Nades or no nades HOT would be any team in existance."

if you can't adjust to the minor changes that BFpro has without pubbing it 24/7, then you need to move onto a new game me thinks. Seriously.. it takes like 1 scrim to adjust and figure out what u need to do.

They're not forcing it on pubbers or anyone @ all for that really. It had to go through a long trial period before it was even accepted for serious competition. The fact of the matter is BFPro is not a mod like DC. Why? because the majority of the ppl who play BF are just random gamers... not clan people, and even if they are, they might not play in competitions. Quite simply, BFPro's purpose is to tweak BF so that its more suitable for SERIOUS COMPETITION versus pubbing. BFPro was not designed, imho, for pubbers... it'd be a waste of its talent to introduce n00bs everywhere to the goodness that is BFPro. BFPro fulfills its purpose by improving competition play. If you want it to be for pubs, fine, go make a version for pubs. Otherwise, i don't see any reason for your post.

The differences between BFPro and bf1942 aren't big enough to mateter when pubbing. So the wrench doesn't repair as much and you can nade spam in pubs. Unless you are a repair bitch or only nade spam then this shouldn't matter. Some of the maps are changed a little, but again thats what scrims are for. BFpro is just the ultimate patch that dice never gave us. It fixes things that should have been fixed along time ago. It improves match play a great deal by illiminatng pixel aiming, decreasing base camping and balancing air/ground, among other things.

You say its not accepted by the community, but I haven't seen any complaints about it before this thread. Just because people don't pub it doesn't mean they don't want to use it match play. The fact is most people don't care about the changes BFpro makes in pubs and by not running it on a server it fills up faster because anyone can join, not just those with the mod installed.
Post edited by AvroArrow at 9/7/2004 4:41:40 PM

^^^^^ what he said. i see no reason why anyone wouldnt want to use pro. but i guess it does make perfect sense to have aa in the middle of kharkov, and not at the bases. and i also guess it make sense to be able to cripple the allied team in baxe right off the start of the map. nade spamming owns, takes uber skillzorz. GAYNESS IS WHAT MAKES BF1942 FUN!!!!

/sarcasm

on another note ive seen plenty of servers that run bfpro, but theyre generally empty unless some ppl are getting a handle on the next weeks cal map...

Originally posted by: malakai_

Originally posted by: FumigaTor

Please don't take this the wrong way, but the only "problem" I see is that your team isn't scheduling scrims. It's fairly easy to set up as many scrims as often as you'd like... with only a minimal amount of effort.

We do schedule scrims, and we do play them. I'm not saying that scheduling scrims is a real problem, and if you believe that you are sadly mistaken. I'm saying that BFPro shouldn't make incredible gameplay tweaks. The Tiger's rock is fine, the fact that it shoots it's ass is fine. The Corsair not being able to go 100 mph faster then the Zero is fine.

The fact is, there are alot of people recommending tweaks for things that don't need to be tweaked. Also, BFPro may be accepted for competition, but finding anyone to play it outside of competition is a difficult task. You may not be someone who pubs often, but I don't always want to play scrims in a damn mod that should be more widely accepted before we make it a competition mandate. Still to this day not many people accept it, some want BF1942 to stay the way it is.

You can't force a mod on people. If we're going to use the mod, it should be used in a seperate ladder/league. Those who want to use it can use it, those who don't won't. If people are forced to use this mod in 2-3 competitions, it'll have to be forced in all competitions - something many people don't want happening.

You're not saying scheduling scrims is a problem, but that's how it's coming out. It doesn't even sound as though you've actually played BFPro. You're talking about stuff that doesn't exist... the tiger still rocks and the planes are still the same speed wise... fewer bombs, but the same planes... so how come you don't know all this? The only thing I can assume is because you haven't actually played it? Or you've played it, but just not a map with tigers or planes? You can't back up your complaints aside from the pub servers not running pro... which I agree, there should be more.

Bottom line, is a competitive mod made by us...the guys who actually compete. If you're not willing to go further than pubbing for practice, then how competitive can you really expect to be? Why should the rest of us, which is most of us, be denied pro cause a few don't want to put forth the effort?

Hmm... apparently malakai doesn't approve of the SUGGESTIONS I put out in the BFpro forums. They were only my personal opinions, and haven't been approved at all. One of these days I may get around to making something like that happen, but then again, I may not have time... And even if I did, the changes might not be accepted by the rest of the people at BFpro.

As it is, BFpro mostly functions to balance maps, with a few gameplay tweaks thrown in for good measure. These tweaks had competition in mind, which is great. Future tweaks may go a little further, custom sounds, custom skins, more equipment, who knows? But, I think everyone at pro wants to keep the gameplay essentially vanilla... Not something geared toward "realism" like FH. My own thoughts on realism are that it goes out the door if you're not actually being shot at, so a game should be fun, not necessarily realistic

I also think that Pro could use more pub servers, but it's really kinda underdeveloped at this point, but in the future with more content added, it really has potential to be VERY popular IMO.

I didn't say that Tigers don't rock and that the corsair is 100mph faster. Go visit the BFPro forums and you'll see that they have been discussing MAKING changes to the above stated. I am simply saying that they are discussing making those changes. Read what I wrote before you reply.

I never said they are forcing it on pubbers. Yet again, read the whole post before replying. They are not forcing it on people? If i'm not mistaken, there are alot of people that don't want to use it. Making BFPro mandetory for 2-3 ladders IS forcing it on people.

BFPro is great for competition in it's current state, there shouldn't really be any other modifications added to it. I am just saying that if we're gonna use it, we should use it in a seperate ladder/league so those who want to use it can, and those who don't want to use it can play in their other ladder/league.

However, I would like to see is used more in a public fashion. This DOES NOT mean random people who just picked up the game. This means people in clans who want to go out and have a fun, fair match, sort of like the Pugs that Andural is always posting about, minus the ventrillo and scrim like atmosphere.

Grace Kelly, you're ideas are excellent ideas. I was somewhat reffering to your posts in the BFPro forums. I love the gameplay tweaks that are in the mod now, and I love the map tweaks. I like BFPro alot, I'm just saying that the stated modifications shouldn't be made, and that I would really like to see more people play it rather then regular BF1942. This DOES NOT mean random people who just picked up the game. This means people in clans who want to go out and have a fun, fair match, sort of like the Pugs that Andural is always posting about, minus the ventrillo and scrim like atmosphere.

I love the idea of BFPro being mandetory in competition in it's current state. I'm just speaking for those that don't, and if you have a problem with that then I feel sorry for you. There are 2 sides of the paper, maybe you should read both?

I hope you understand where I'm coming from now, and have actually read my entire post and understood it.
Post edited by malakai_ at 9/7/2004 5:26:32 PM

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.ßetã.·mälakai ¦Ð¦
Email: mobius002 at gamebox.net
IRC: #desolation, #bfradio

LeGun: "Nades or no nades HOT would be any team in existance."

I guess I should be the one to answer this since I started the NBFL league which is really put BF Pro on the map (season 2 coming soon) and also worked on BF Pro a bit in its development stage.

The first real issue people have with this mod in comparison to mods in other games is the number of people required to maintain a successful public server.

Take UT, Quake, Counter Strike, and all of the other games and you only need 8-10 people on a server to enjoy a game. In battlefield however you need at least 16 people in a server to enjoy a small map and on el alamein/gazala type maps you need at least 20.

Thus its basically just a mathematical problem. You need 20+ people on a single server running the BF Pro mod just to have a good pub. In UT 20 people would be enough to run at least 2 and maybe even 3 servers.

Secondly, it is nearly impossible to fix the first problem due to the fact that the great majority of the people who pub battlefield are not clan, league, or ladder players. So there is a good chance that 75% or more of the BF pubbers dont even know what BF Pro is.

Thirdly, the BF community in general is very fickle and easily distracted. Its basically like a community populated by people with ADD. We could put 3 or 4 public servers out there running BF Pro but the idea of that quickly goes stale to many players and they immediately migrate back to the regular pubs and never show back up to the BF Pro servers again. This leaves only a handful of players who keep coming back to try to keep the pubs going out in the cold because now they are left playing 2 on 2 Battlefield for hours which quickly breaks their drive to keep it going as well.

Fourthly, when you think about the history Battlefield has with being easily distracted and not sticking to anything its tough to ask people who are paying money for their servers to keep running the mod. People are paying 100 dollars or more a month to run a public server. Imagine what would happen if 9RP's server shifted to BF Pro and the masses of people who always play there can no longer connect to it and find some other place to play. Then the competitive end of BF 1942 stops pubbing there so they shift it back to regular BF and its no longer filling up all the time and nowhere near as popular amongst the non-competitive players because they got tired of trying to connect to it. Its tough to talk someone into taking this risk with their already popular public server.


These are afew of the reasons, there are plenty more. But either way I hope this helped.

In cal, and twl u get to play both sides of the map, so evening out competition in the long run has nothing to do with it. Only losers complain about it not being even. And if its not normal bf, then i dont wanna play it. But i have a feeling that the community will want to.



Hërb | Xfire: herbster

NCG New Centruy Gamers
BFRadio
"What does it profit a man to gain the world and forefit his soul" SB4lyfe

Originally posted by: malakai_
I didn't say that Tigers don't rock and that the corsair is 100mph faster. Go visit the BFPro forums and you'll see that they have been discussing MAKING changes to the above stated. I am simply saying that they are discussing making those changes. Read what I wrote before you reply.

No you're not. This thread isn't a discussion about potential changes to bfpro, it's a thread about not using bfpro.

Look at your own arguments:

I'm saying that BFPro shouldn't make incredible gameplay tweaks. The Tiger's rock is fine, the fact that it shoots it's ass is fine. The Corsair not being able to go 100 mph faster then the Zero is fine.

Name one "incredible" game play tweak... cause the ones you suggested have nothing to do with reality. Yeah sure, bfpro may change some in the future... now what does that have to do with getting rid of it now?

Nothing.

If you throw up a bfpro server I'm sure kc|w would play on it. Feel free to play on ours when we're running pro.

Originally posted by: *-=SB=-*HERB
In cal, and twl u get to play both sides of the map, so evening out competition in the long run has nothing to do with it. Only losers complain about it not being even. And if its not normal bf, then i dont wanna play it. But i have a feeling that the community will want to.

Honestly, and I hope you dont take this the wrong way because this isnt meant to belittle you in any way, if you havent played at the level of competition that CAL 8 on 8 especially (but other leagues) had to offer then you really wont understand why this mod was made.


Ill give you one scenario.....

On Iwo Jima it was very easy to pixel aim the entire airfield. Many thought that keeping the airfield as Axis was the biggest trick to the map but not if you were playing the teams that bothered to break this map down pixel aiming wise.

Using the defgun and battleship we could easily kill:

1) Every flak gun at the airfield (every single one)
2) Your tanks as they spawn (even if you pulled them backwards into the hangar)
3) Both of your planes
4) Your jeeps if we really felt like being mean


These would all be quickly and efficiently killed from across the map at the mountain as they spawn and there is no counter to it.

We, and every other top 5 clan had similar tactics for:

Battleaxe
Tobruk
Aberdeen
Wake Island
Bulge
etc
etc
etc


The matches basically turned into who came up with the greatest amount of cheese to throw at the opposition to get the win.

In our match, when I was with 20id, Paradigm managed to pixel aim out every vehicle, flak, or anything else useful on the map with their artillery.

We figured out how to panzershrek their planes from our main base and we had almost as many shots pixel aimed as well.


This just isnt the way battlefield should be played in our opinion. The best skill, teamwork, and hardworking team should win.

Not the team that takes the time to come up with the most cheesey tactics.