map list

I know that b.net accepts moonglade as an acceptable 1v1 map but I for one think we should try to get it removed from TWL play. I have 1 real reason, NE and Orc are screwed against undead severly. Since there is no goblin merchant to buy WoN's, necros can raise dead with near impunity. Humans have dispel so they are alright, but orcs purge cannot cut it no matter how you look at it and dryads abolish magic cant keep up with the workload either. Well there are my 2 cents, i am open to opinions/arguments against me.

Josie

Originally posted by: JosieMcCoy

look at it and dryads abolish magic cant keep up with the workload either.

You're kidding right? Anyways, it's the luck of the draw when it comes down to it. Not every map will be Lost Temple, perfectly 'symmetrical and balanced.' And I like that. It makes it more challenging and more varied than same strat, every map.

Look at Scorched Basin... Try getting a WoN there easy... w/o a sleeped/cycloned/owned hero.

also, its not like you have no idea of the map previous to the map. Maybe if you draw moonglade, try playing it as UD and see what happens.

Impaling bolts+ballistae = dead necros/skelies. As for orcs, warstomp, shockwave, chain lightning, lightning shield - you have yourself one very dead necro masser.

there's necro massers here? LOL to them :P
SlayerofFilth

I ahve played moonglade quite a bit with undead, i play with them mostly. First off to adress angelic, i know this is mathcraft that I am about to do and i am sorry as it is not the same as in the game depending on how many dryads vs necros, buts lets do the math real quick. Abolish magic costs 50 mana, that dispels one skelly, the second one that was raised costs another 50 mana to get rid of, thats 100 mana. Necros only take 75 mana to raise 2 skellies. Therefore my saying that dryads cant keep up with the workload.

I'll admit, NE does have an easier time than orc but it is still much harder in that map to counter a mass ghoul/necro/skellly force. Im not saying its impossible or anything, im just saying the map is not balanced, that is all. Yes Orc does have war-stomp/shockwave/CL to counter skellies, but once again, its a mana problem, NE and orc run out of mana to get rid of skellies before necros do. Sorry my post was a little long, and convoluted. I havent slept in a while. Thanks for hearing me out.

Also, just real quick as people have responded to my post while I was typing, im not saying massing all necros, its the combo that can get you of ghouls/necros/skellies. With ghoul frenzy plus vampiric they live a while and when they die your 6-7 necros raise them 2 fold into albeit lesser warriors but still a formidable army. Without WoN's im saying that it COULD be an imbalance favoring the UD in that map vs Orc or NE. Not a definite one.

Josie

but like angelic says it's all luck of the draw if u know ur playing a certain map then play a race good ont that map and know the map well. Different maps make for different games it would all be boring if everything was perfect ust same strats over and over



min DerangedMutant
The Ministry

Not only that but come on.. When I used to *mass* necros, I still lost sometimes to NE and Orcs.. oh and please..pleeeaasee ... josie if you play NE.. let this be your last complaint *angry*
SlayerofFilth

If you are NE and your idea to win is to abolish the skels then ya you wont be able to get them all. Instead KILL THE NECROS. Your hunts can run right around the ghouls and kill the necros easy enough or drive them into dryad focus fire. Necros really arent effective at all against NE until the UD get enough ghouls to protect them (ALOT). Also maybe try going with hipp riders in this situation. You dont need a WoN to beat skels, just a little thought beforehand.

fiends + necros > air

Dryads takes too much micro for me to do well. I lag like a bitch :/

dryads micro themselves

a|Wicked Bear
7 Classic: Golden Circle
5 Assed Monkey

Just so you know... if you're having trouble with frenzied/unholy frenzy ghouls/necros.. by that point in the game, if you don't know where they're going... and how to counter it.. your least worry is the map you're on =). Like stated above: The only counter for necros isn't WoN.... and you can't use the same strat for EVERY map and counter... sorry NE players =P (j/k)

It's ok nick, you don't have to say JK... You can hate them openly like I do!
SlayerofFilth

I have to remain ~

this is true
SlayerofFilth

Originally posted by: JosieMcCoy
With ghoul frenzy plus vampiric they live a while and when they die your 6-7 necros raise them 2 fold into albeit lesser warriors but still a formidable army.

actually a skelly has better attack and armor than a ghoul, just 150 less hp.

Also with the orcs consider using tauren chieftain and shockwave. 1 level 3 Shockwave will destroy any skel it touches regardless of current health so make use of this fact. You can kill more skels with a shockwave than you can with a won and watch your experience SOAR.

What so many people dont understand with necros is that using their raise dead ability is a huge gamble. While you can possibly mass the numbers of units to overrun their army, there are so many counters available to them that you may find that you are feeding their heroes MASSIVE experience and not getting anywhere with your skel usage. Watch yourself or you could see a level 6 hero facing you, thanks to your necros.

a|Wicked Bear
7 Classic: Golden Circle
5 Assed Monkey

Originally posted by: Wicked Bear


Also with the orcs consider using tauren chieftain and shockwave. 1 level 3 Shockwave will destroy any skel it touches regardless of current health so make use of this fact. You can kill more skels with a shockwave than you can with a won and watch your experience SOAR.

Good call. I usually went with warstomp.

*sigh*

Come on wicked bear... I know you don't mean that. I'd say MOST undead players have an above-average understanding of Necromancers and their powers/shortcomings by now. Yeah it's a gamble...and it's 100% worth taking that gamble. There's so many things you can do with Necros and skeletons. Basically, Juggle your skeletons and cripple...keep their front line cursed if you have a few banshees. Their hero might level faster *initially*..but more often than not he'll plateau for awhile..that's been my experience. I'm only scared of blademasters to be honest with you..bladestorm is nasty.
SlayerofFilth

I showed ya that many a time lol. Anywho cripple > all.

hell ya, level 2 and 3 necro spells kick ass... im just sayin be careful with that raise dead... you'd be surprised how many UD players ive come across that rely on it for success.

a|Wicked Bear
7 Classic: Golden Circle
5 Assed Monkey

vampric aura and skeletons is insane vs anything. Those skeletons last *much* longer.

And a WoN kills pretty much all the skeletons there are on the field, and you dont have to position ur self for a shockwave.

yes but if you dont HAVE a won what good does all that do you? read first post plz thx

a|Wicked Bear
7 Classic: Golden Circle
5 Assed Monkey

You ever played someone and just wonder how on earth they got to the level they're currently at? It's just amazing to me somethimes... sorry just had to throw it in.. lvl 9 human.. SOOO bad.. I just don't get it
SlayerofFilth

i had a partner in a random team game. Level 13 he was. We were both NE and neither of us had been attacked. My force was about 12 hunts and 10 dott (fully teched) hunts had moon glaive and 3/3. He had about 8 hunts at 0/1 tech and nothing else (he said he was going for dryads and had an ancient of lore but nothing coming out) i was level 5 from creeping he was level 2. we both had expansions... WHAT THE HELL WAS HE DOING?!

we lost btw.

a|Wicked Bear
7 Classic: Golden Circle
5 Assed Monkey

It's very easy to explain a level 9 player being really bad. If you look at Blizzard's lame ass scoring system, those people who are level 9 or below get a percentage discount on their loss points -- it's a BIG discount. You can have some guy get to level 10, even though his win percentage is about 33%.

It's not until someone gets to about 12 or 13 that you can be pretty sure he's not a complete moron (At level 10+, there is no percentage discount). There are exceptions of course...but this has been my experience.

Well if you think of it, even with the new scoring system you have to have *some* skill to get where you are now...
SlayerofFilth

No...with the new scoring system it simply favors playing more and more games. The math is way to complex to get into on this forum...there were some posts war3pub...but with the negation of the lvl difference having any real effect on the xp gain/loss, as long as you win 1/2 ur games you will continue to go up in level. That's seriously messed up.

Anyways, if you're STILL looking to counter skellies without a WON, I do believe it's already been said several times with many different options.

the math is not complex at all


































































Level Diff Higher Win Higher Loss Lower Win Lower Loss 0 100 100 100 100 1 95 105 140 60 2 90 110 152 48 3 85 115 163 37 4 80 120 172 28 5 75 125 178 22 6 70 130 184 16

Wicked Bear,

You are only partially correct. You are not including the loss factor that is applied to those that are level 9 and below. This is from http://www.battle.net/war3/ladder/rules.shtml

"At levels 1 through 9, the penalty for losing a game is reduced. The actual amount of XP lost are multiplied by the Loss Factor listed on Chart 1."

Level StartingXP XP_Needed Loss Factor Min. Games
1 0 100 0.10 0
2 100 100 0.11 0
3 200 200 0.11 0
4 400 200 0.25 0
5 600 300 0.25 0
6 900 300 0.43 0
7 1,200 400 0.43 0
8 1,600 400 0.67 0
9 2,000 500 0.67 0
10 2,500 500 1.00 0

So if two level 5 players play each other, the winner will gain 100 points, and the loser will lose only 25 points. It's because of this gay rule that a level 10 player can actually have a pretty crappy record
Post edited by Captain_Kibitz at 10/20/2002 4:00:55 AM

I dunno..for some reason I've seen people around level 12-14 with winning % around 40%...it doesn't make any sense to me.
SlayerofFilth

it also depends on who you are winning and losing against...

if they have been playing alot of higher level players and winning 40% of the time, they will definitely increase in experience and thus level...

a|Wicked Bear
7 Classic: Golden Circle
5 Assed Monkey

yeah but think about it.. that means they *only* win against high level people and lose to the majority...that iz gay
SlayerofFilth

I'm calling bullshit on zombie. While it is possible to be level 14 and have a win percentage of 40%, I find it highly improbable.

To prove your statement, give us names of people who are level 14 w/ a win percentage of 40%. The statistics just don't lend themselves to having a 40% win record while being level 14.

if you maintain a 40% win/loss ratio, you should hover around level 8-9.

You need at least a 50% win/loss ratio to maintain any level higher than 9.

Once you reach level 10, you need greater than 50% to advance in levels.



Unfortunately, there is no change after reaching level 10. You will keep advancing, as long as you maintain a greater than 50% win/loss ratio. Although, a level 20 player with a 51% win ratio is still better than a level 10 player with a 51% win ratio, because the level 20 player is playing against much more experienced opponents.

solo and random team are very different worlds.

Someone will have to be a pretty good player to make it above level 10 solo. However in random team i see total newbs at level 12-13 all the time and i think its entirely possible, even probable that a few newbs made it to level 14 in random team games. Just glancing at the list on azeroth i see Knight_Elf89 who has a barely winning record and is level 16 RT and level 15 mantrix in the same situation. Im sure that player is out there, just not very common.

a|Wicked Bear
7 Classic: Golden Circle
5 Assed Monkey

I said around 40%, not 50%. I have no doubt there are a crapload of people w/ a 50% record and can be anywhere from level 10 to level 25. zombie quoted 40%, and I still call bullshit.

here's a backup to zombie's claim. You can have a 40% w/l record if this happened (which is common, I assume) let's say I buy war3 and start playing with an account and I start playing, I win 1 out of my first 10 games or so. Let's say I lose a lot of games before I get to level 7. As I keep playing more and getting better, sooner or later, I can get to level 12 or 13, but still have my old losses to haunt me.

Booya.

Originally posted by: Captain_Kibitz

I said around 40%, not 50%. I have no doubt there are a crapload of people w/ a 50% record and can be anywhere from level 10 to level 25. zombie quoted 40%, and I still call bullshit.

First off, of course I'm gonna back up a friend.

Anywho, to my point, let's not get hung up on #'s and %'s, although I am SURE that he can provide you with them. You totally missed the idea of what he was saying, and went into a flame mindset. Here's the point:

Crappy players, by playing MANY games, can get to a high lvl, without being *great*. This holds very true with Blizzard's matching and scoring setup. Did you stop to think that players disconnect? Did you realize that someone may share an account or have friends smurf on his to make a name for himself (believe me I've heard firsthand of this practice in MANY games.)...ect..ect.

I'm lvl 1 on the solo ladder. I rarely play WC anymore, but I'll tell you something, I know more about the game and how to play it than the majority of lvl 14's.

You can EASILY reach 14 with a few good matchups in your favor, esp, if you click off EVERY map but Lost Temple, use your same OLD strat OVER and OVER....ect.... And if they lose to a lvl 16+ OVER AND OVER, it won't hurt their score, when they happen to get wins over a few 15's. They'll fall to 12 or 13 losing repeatedly, then get back up with a few lucky wins, when their blueprint strat pulls through over a certain other strat.

Basically what I believe the WHOLE idea of where this post has gone (not where it started) is if you want a real show of your skills, it'll be shown on a ladder WITHOUT random matchups (i.e. here). You want more challenges? Get that lvl 17 who beat your behind to come to the site and sign up. You may find some lvl 17 NE or Human gets romped by a lvl 1 Orc (not me tho lol.) The proof is in the puddin, and, over time, real skill can be shown by the extreme top of the Blizzard ladder, and would be shown moreso through ladders like ours.

"ooo I call bullshit on zombie "

Yes you're right.. I lie .. I just can't help myself... wtf dude.. ok maybe he was 45%! The bottom line is that I distictly remember I was in a chatroom and this guy was giving out STUPID ass advice but people were believing him cuz he was level 14..I check his profile and there it was... 40-something win percentage. I take offense when people call me a liar when,in fact, I am not lying. What now..I'd bet you're going to ask me for the guy's name, right? Ok ..spider sense tingling! God damn... See, Reinx brings up a good point..and maybe that's what the case was with this guy. Ugh..why bother..yeah i'm full of shit you're right..I can't read what's in front of my face..
SlayerofFilth