Domination revamp discussion....

As you may know, there is a new scoring method for the Domination gametype provided by Bullet Worm that may be used.

It works by implemeting team point awarded based on the time a flag is held in a teams possesion. It breaks down like this (and can be modified, the intervals of time in which the scoring changes, the actual time interval; 30 seconds, one minute, 3 minutes, and the amount of intervals):

0 points awarded for a flag capture.
1 point awarded for holding a flag for 1 minute.
1 point awarded for holding a flag for 2 minutes.
1 point awarded for holding a flag for 3 minutes.
1 point awarded for holding a flag for 4 minutes.
2 points awarded for holding a flag for 5 minutes.
2 points awarded for holding a flag for 6 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 7 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 8 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 9 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 10 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 11 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 12 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 13 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 14 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 15 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 16 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 17 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 18 minutes.
10 points awarded for holding a flag for 19 minutes.
Holding a flag for 20 minutes will not be possible, as it takes time to capture a flag at the start of a match.

The above scoring is based on a match that is 40 minutes long (2, 20 minute rounds), 20 minutes per side. The team with the highest combined score from both rounds wins the map. One map will be played. Intervals are 60 seconds.

The reason the score changes at 7 minutes is based on the fact that it IS possible to hold a flag for 7 minutes, lose that flag, and have 5 minutes to recapture that flag in order to reach a tier 3 score (which is 3). The interval times are very much like a "point of no return". If you lose your "base flag" at any time during the match, it will be impossible to ever score 10 points for one minute of possesion.

*PLEASE NOTE*

Points awarded for time possesion of a flag are NOT individually awarded. Thus, in an effort to ensure that a team must HOLD a flag, rather then just capture to award points, the cvar "set scr_dom_CapturePoints" should be set to 0, awarding 0 points for capturing a flag. With the "CapturePoints" cvar set to 0, there is no way to gain individual points, thus the ranking system is useless. UNLESS......

This type of scoring also brings up the posibility for awarding team points for individual kills. The kills made by individual player (although they will be added to the teams score) should now be dwarfed by the points earned through flag possesion times. Example:

If team A has

1 flag for 15 minutes = 3
1 flag for 7 minutes = 3
1 flag for 2 minutes = 1

That equals 7 points for ONE minutes of play. Make no mistake, if this new scoring goes through, the Domination ladder will be a very high scoring ladder, and individual kills should hold little weight in the final outcome of the match, but will have an impact on the abilities of each individual player.

Please discuss....

*edit

This cvar is also an option, "set scr_dom_CaptureAllPoints 20", wherein the final score awarded may be changed to any amount. I would chose to make it something higher like 100, to ensure that actually capturing all flags will indeed win the round for your team. It would be possible for the other team to have held 3 flags for 12 - 13 intervals for 30 TOTAL points per flag, resulting in 90 points. 20 points just doesn't seem enough incentive to try and capture all flags.
Post edited by FSB at 1/14/2005 3:46:54 PM

I like this revamping and agree with it. I am sure everyone will agree this is by far a better scoring system.

---

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IRC: #teamwarfare, #twl_cod

I like it much better than what we're doing now...

hmmm... Let me try to explain a little further on the personal / team scoring part:

Originally posted by: FSB
Points awarded for time possesion of a flag are NOT individually awarded.

True

Originally posted by: FSB
Thus, in an effort to ensure that a team must HOLD a flag, rather then just capture to award points, the cvar "set scr_dom_CapturePoints" should be set to 0, awarding 0 points for capturing a flag.

True

Originally posted by: FSB
With the "CapturePoints" cvar set to 0, there is no way to gain individual points, thus the ranking system is useless.

False, the personal and team scoring systems are completely separate. The amount of points a player gets for capturing a location is the same as it is in stock. With the "CapturePoints" cvar set to 0, the TEAM will get no points for the capture, but the player will.

Originally posted by: FSB
This type of scoring also brings up the posibility for awarding team points for individual kills. The kills made by individual player (although they will be added to the teams score) should now be dwarfed by the points earned through flag possesion times.

Again, player scores and TEAM scores are handled completely separately.

If this cvar is turned on, all player kills of the opponent will count as 1 Team Point and the player will be awarded the appropriate (stock) amount of points to his own score.

With this cvar turned off, player kills of the opponent do NOT count as a Team Point, but the player will still recieve the appropriate amount of (stock) points to his/her score.


*****************************************

On a personal note, I think shorter intervals will be more exciting (30 or even 20 seconds). 1 minute is a LONG time to wait to get any kind of reward out of a Capture Point, especially if it is in the middle.

The intervals I mostly like for a 20 minute match. I might have bumped Interval 3 up to the 8 or 9 minute mark though.

But I LOVE how you have the last Tier such that it is only available to those who never lose their closest Capture Point. Brilliant!

Also, please keep in mind that the overall number of Tiers is easily adjustable. Don't let that be a boundary.

worm
Post edited by bullet-worm at 1/14/2005 5:21:04 PM

This is much better. I'm not sure of all of the nuances of Heat of Battle scoring, but this is certainly similar. We would be all in favor of this.

One question, and one comment...

With this mod, does each flag have its own clock? In other words, the mod doesn't check every 60 seconds to see who has what objectives, then check again 60 seconds later and award points if that objective hasn't been lost, does it? I only ask because if all the flags are on a single scoring timer, you could end up having to hold a flag for 1:59 before getting a single point on it, if you were unlucky.

And as to the 10 point bonus for holding a flag for the entire match...when I started typing this post, I didn't think I liked the idea too much, but the more I think about it, that may just add another dynamic to strategies. My intital thought was that on certain maps, Foy for example, one team has 2 ojectives near their spawn, while the other taam has one. I guess I'm undecided on that one.
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Originally posted by: CorpusDan
With this mod, does each flag have its own clock? In other words, the mod doesn't check every 60 seconds to see who has what objectives, then check again 60 seconds later and award points if that objective hasn't been lost, does it?

Each flag has its OWN clock. This clock does not start until the Capture Point has been captured. If it is captured by the other team, the clock starts over for them, as it does for you when you re-capture the Capture Point.

Thus, if there are 6 Capture Points out there, they could all be scoring on their own heartbeat, so to speak.

worm
Post edited by bullet-worm at 1/14/2005 5:27:38 PM

Originally posted by: bullet-worm

Thus, if there are 6 Capture Points out there, they could all be scoring on their own heartbeat, so to speak.

Marvelous. This is how we had assumed all along UO Domination would be scored when it was originally released. Excellent work, worm.
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Originally posted by: bullet-worm
If this cvar is turned on, all player kills of the opponent will count as 1 Team Point and the player will be awarded the appropriate (stock) amount of points to his own score.

With this cvar turned off, player kills of the opponent do NOT count as a Team Point, but the player will still recieve the appropriate amount of (stock) points to his/her score.

Awesome! My mistake, thanks for the correction.


*****************************************

Originally posted by: bullet-worm
On a personal note, I think shorter intervals will be more exciting (30 or even 20 seconds). 1 minute is a LONG time to wait to get any kind of reward out of a Capture Point, especially if it is in the middle.

I thought 1 minute would be perfect just because the 30 second intervals would add up VERY quickly. With an interval set at 5 (of 30 seconds,) within 2 and a half minutes, a team will have scored 6 points (for just ONE flag). That just seems too easy to me. As opposed to taking 5 minutes with one minute intervals. It is just a measure of half. Many of these settings will greatly depend on community feedback, and not personal opinion. Not to mention it doesn't allow much time for a capture-recapture. Kind of like a spawn time in CTF, if it's done too quickly, it's self defeating.

Originally posted by: bullet-worm
The intervals I mostly like for a 20 minute match. I might have bumped Interval 3 up to the 8 or 9 minute mark though.

I though about that as well, but I wanted to make sure there was only ONE interval that was "no turning back". If tier3 interval is bumped up to 8 minutes, then it is HIGHLY unlikely that the team who lost the flag will be able to get it back up to a tier 3 level, as it will take 16 intervals during the match to re-reach tier3, that leave a mere 3 minutes to re-cap the lost flag, allowing one minute or MORE to orginally capture the flag. (unless maybe a 30 second interval is used.)

Originally posted by: bullet-worm
But I LOVE how you have the last Tier such that it is only available to those who never lose their closest Capture Point. Brilliant!

Thank you.

Originally posted by: bullet-worm
Also, please keep in mind that the overall number of Tiers is easily adjustable. Don't let that be a boundary.

Oh believe me Sir, my mind is a buzz of options. I Actually though of something like this:

// This sets the interval of time (seconds) that each flag scores. Min = 5 right now
set scr_dom_scoreinterval 60

// Tier 1 Scoring - Always starts with Interval 1
set scr_dom_tier1score 1

//Tier 2 Scoring
set scr_dom_tier2interval 2
set scr_dom_tier2score 2

// Tier 3 Scoring
set scr_dom_tier3interval 6
set scr_dom_tier3score 4

// Tier 4 Scoring
set scr_dom_tier4interval 10
set scr_dom_tier4score 6

// Tier 5 Scoring
set scr_dom_tier5interval 11
set scr_dom_tier5score 1

// Tier 6 Scoring
set scr_dom_tier6interval 19
set scr_dom_tier6score 20

I mean, HOW SICK IS THAT?!


Thanks for all your support Bullet Worm. I might also like to add that Bullet tells me that these changes can be intergrated into PAM and .cfg controlled. So there will be no need to add yet another .pk3 to your server. (Is this correct Bullet?)

The brilliance in this new option is the limitless control. The options as mind boggling.

Once again, community insight is very encouraged. Please feel free to contribute your own idea of tiers and tier scoring.

Another thought on the 1 minute interval. I am not sure if I like this effect or not, but here it is for all to consider:

Any Capture Point captured within the last minute of play is no longer IN play, beacuse it is impossible for EITHER team to score on it.

worm

Originally posted by: FSB
I thought 1 minute would be perfect just because the 30 second intervals would add up VERY quickly. With an interval set at 5 (of 30 seconds,) within 2 and a half minutes, a team will have scored 6 points (for just ONE flag). That just seems too easy to me. As opposed to taking 5 minutes with one minute intervals. It is just a measure of half. Many of these settings will greatly depend on community feedback, and not personal opinion. Not to mention it doesn't allow much time for a capture-recapture. Kind of like a spawn time in CTF, if it's done too quickly, it's self defeating.

Yeah, scores will add up quicker, but they will add up quicker for BOTH sides. The overall effect is the same I suppose, but the lower the Interval, the more scoring opportunity. BOTH teams could have 6 points off of ONE flag in two and a half minutes.

However, I would suggest that IF the interval were lowered that the Tier Intervals be adjusted to keep the same Tier effect you are making with the 1-minute intervals.

For example, instead of the Tier2Interval being 5, it would now be 10 (to keep Tier 2 Scoring coming in at the 5-minute mark). Just double all your Tier#Intervals and you have the same effect as before, but with faster/higher scoring matches.

worm

To further illustrate my point:

// This sets the interval of time (seconds) that each flag scores. Min = 5 right now
set scr_dom_scoreinterval 30

// Tier 1 Scoring - Always starts with Interval 1
set scr_dom_tier1score 1

//Tier 2 Scoring
set scr_dom_tier2interval 10
set scr_dom_tier2score 2

// Tier 3 Scoring
set scr_dom_tier3interval 14
set scr_dom_tier3score 3

// Tier 4 Scoring
set scr_dom_tier4interval 39
set scr_dom_tier4score 10

******************************************
0 points awarded for a flag capture.
1 point awarded for holding a flag for .5 minute.
1 point awarded for holding a flag for 1 minute.
1 point awarded for holding a flag for 1.5 minutes.
1 point awarded for holding a flag for 2 minute.
1 point awarded for holding a flag for 2.5 minutes.
1 point awarded for holding a flag for 3 minute.
1 point awarded for holding a flag for 3.5 minutes.
1 point awarded for holding a flag for 4 minute.
1 point awarded for holding a flag for 4.5 minutes.
2 points awarded for holding a flag for 5 minutes.
2 points awarded for holding a flag for 5.5 minutes.
2 points awarded for holding a flag for 6 minutes.
2 points awarded for holding a flag for 6.5 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 7 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 7.5 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 8 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 8.5 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 9 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 9.5 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 10 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 10.5 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 11 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 11.5 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 12 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 12.5 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 13 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 13.5 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 14 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 14.5 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 15 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 15.5 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 16 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 16.5 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 17 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 17.5 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 18 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 18.5 minutes.
3 points awarded for holding a flag for 19 minutes.
10 points awarded for holding a flag for 19.5 minutes.


It doesn't really matter to me, I just think it is the same effect with more scoring opportunity. Everyone likes to score!

worm

only thing i would add is maybe keep it at what FSB said the scores and timers originally (not starting till 1 min), but if there would be a way to include 1 point for capture (immediate), and then that be the start of their 1 point per minute on the tier 1. or possibly after 5 or 10 seconds...

BUT... here's the flip side... a flag may be worthless to capture within the last minute as far as YOU gaining points... but you may also keep them from getting points... esp if it's their base flag that you cap in the last minute, you just stopped a 10 point swing.
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Yep... very true.

I like this idea! It's what Domination should've been in the first place.

I have played on a server with bullets config for a little bit (will do more tonight).
We did not have enough guys to play a match type game.
One thing I do not see is a bonus points for a full cap. I believe that to make sure that teams go on the attack is to provide a bonus (fairly large) to reward a full cap.

|CBW|Stilon

set scr_dom_CaptureAllPoints 20

That would give 20 BONUS Points to the team that captured all points.

worm

I DID have something written up to ask your opinion about this Bullet, but thanks to the kids it was gone within one quick key stroke.

Did you not see this, or think it was a bad idea? I call it the ALL or nothing. Look at the scoring.

// Tier 4 Scoring
set scr_dom_tier4interval 10
set scr_dom_tier4score 6

// Tier 5 Scoring
set scr_dom_tier5interval 11
set scr_dom_tier5score 1

// Tier 6 Scoring
set scr_dom_tier6interval 19
set scr_dom_tier6score 20

Not sure what to think about that...

Hold it 10 minutes and then its worth less EXCEPT if you decide to keep it till the end. Its certainly possible, but how popular that would be I wouldn't have a clue.

It just sounds... more complicated than it needs to be I guess. But if people like it, run with it!

worm

Originally posted by: bullet-worm
It just sounds... more complicated than it needs to be I guess.

worm

That's just me for you I guess. I love to make things VERY important in a game. All or nothing! I don't think it will make the "final"....but it would be interesting.

Will there be a vote on the DOM scoring in the twl community?

I believe so.

I agree with the comments. The new system will help to improve game play in DOM and hopefully increase the ladder since it has shrunk. I saw a mention towards HOB. I too do not recall the nuances of HOB, but the scoring was similar. You just needed more people to cap a point.

I have played the new format on a test server. The maps were Carentan and Dawnville. Since the maps are soooo small, it was hard, at times, to hold a flag for five seconds let alone one minute. Are there more test maps or was I on the wrong server? When is implementation going to take place for the new scoring system?

I think I like worm's point about the last minute of the match being useless. Kind of like in Base Assault, as it takes a minute for the damn bomb to explode. Why play the last minute if you've already lost?

Id like to see it scored every 30 seconds at least. Or if its at all possible, create a 2-Minute Warning system that would automatically change the scoring from 1 minute scoring to 30 second scoring.

Even as it is, I can tell its a lot better. This makes a domination League that much more possible as well, as you won't see very many draws - a setback in the original planning for the DOM League.

I might be challenged...

.... but did the new scoring go into effect? We would love to rejoin the ladder!

I haven't seen a vote go up on it, and FSB has been AFK for quite a while I think. FSB has been the admin heading up this project, and I am not sure what's going on anymore. It may need the DOM players to stir and make some noise so things can get moving again.

worm

We would join the ladder if the new scoring is implemented...


-DxM- daJudge, Founding Member Deus Ex Machina

It may need the DOM players to stir and make some noise so things can get moving again.

Alright, lets get a vote going then!

The 'eyes' have it. Let's get this going.

I already struck my gavel - whats the hold-up?!?!

With my previous thoughts of the scoring system and then trying the scoring out on the test server, I have to withdrawl my previous statements and say let's get these new rules worked out and implemented.

The new scoring system will seriously help the DOM ladder and comnunity.

Give me a week to clear my plate from PAM UO V3 and I'll ask to head up the vote issue for DOM in the absence of FSB.

Unfortunately, since this will not be coming about until then, we will have to use the mod with config files (as it is done now with 2.6 and V3 Beta). But if the vote passes I will start installing all the additional components into DOM to make it truly supported by PAM UO with Ready-ups and integrated rule files.

worm
Post edited by bullet-worm at 2/28/2005 4:21:45 PM

w00t! I missed this thread as I posted to another DOM scoring thread. If a server is needed for testing we could host one for as long as needed.

Thanks BW!

alright. first off, this isnt a rant, flame, bash, etc. I understand it takes an enourmous amount of time to plan, co-ordinate, execute, and basically run a ladder/league.

with that said, this scoring system is jacked. It now longer matters who wins a round. that's just baffling to me.

what was wrong with the original scoring? i ask cause i've only played one DOM twl match and it was under the new scoring. (which i certainly didn't understand then, and barely do now)

Every DOM map has 5 flags. This is an odd nnumber. Whoever has three or more lags at the end of the round wins. what is wrong with this?

Certainly it isn't the following scenario?:

Team A is brutalizing Team B the entire round. Team A has 4 flags. 30 seconds to go. Out of nowhere Team B snares 2 flags in the final seonds to win the round.

Does Team A have a red ass over this? THe above scenaio cound be a solid tactic by Team B.

Anyway, i think this new scoring is weaker than just winning the round.

Thanks!
Well I don't want Fop, godammit! I'm a Dapper Dan man!

I dont like it cause it takes the away the main objective of the match. Its suppost to be whoever has captured the most flags wins not who tolds them the longest. Now what if in real war Iraqys hold 3 bases for 3 years and then we capture all 3 bases and then the next the war is over so that mean IRAQ won the war. I dont like it one bit!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks

Plus its encouraginh camping so there goes run and gunnin! Without that the game is no fun!

Guys, I had the same debates about the scoring system until I actually played it on the test sever a while back. Domination isn't about getting points for capping a flag. It's about how long you hold those flags. Trading points back and forth doesnt show which team DOMINATED in the match.

Another point is this. There were close to 40 teams on the ladder when we joined it a few months back. Now there is barely 20+, and only 3/4 of those teams actually compete. The DOM ladder needs a serious facelift before the ladder dies out completely.

Teams have left the ladder, MANY of them because of the default scoring and how domination mode isn't truly domination.

Also, current TWL rules don't go by the rounds won, it goes by the total points of both rounds, so if you were playing be rounds won, you are wrong.

Originally posted by: |x| Knight
Plus its encouraginh camping so there goes run and gunnin! Without that the game is no fun!

These issues have all been talked about before. If you have ever played on the test server you would know you can't camp. If you do, you loose, fast, very fast. This type of gameplay encourages aggression by both teams. IF the team you are playing is not aggresive, and thinks they can camp their flags and defend them from being overtaken to accumulate the extra points, they will loose, no questions asked.

Originally posted by: =GvL=Terr0r

Originally posted by: |x| Knight
Plus its encouraginh camping so there goes run and gunnin! Without that the game is no fun!

These issues have all been talked about before. If you have ever played on the test server you would know you can't camp. If you do, you loose, fast, very fast. This type of gameplay encourages aggression by both teams. IF the team you are playing is not aggresive, and thinks they can camp their flags and defend them from being overtaken to accumulate the extra points, they will loose, no questions asked.

So far there are many good points brought up. I personally enjoy the proposed scoring change and can't wait to see it on a larger map. The DOM ladder definately needs a shot in the arm and this proposal just might do that.

Either way we go with the rules, we need to do it fast or drop the ladder from the league. It doesn't make sense to allocate time and resources for a ladder with 10-13 active teams. I would hate to see that route taken but if we can't get more teams playing it is probably going to happen on it's own.

Originally posted by: [9th GD] STURM

Originally posted by: =GvL=Terr0r

Originally posted by: |x| Knight
Plus its encouraginh camping so there goes run and gunnin! Without that the game is no fun!

These issues have all been talked about before. If you have ever played on the test server you would know you can't camp. If you do, you loose, fast, very fast. This type of gameplay encourages aggression by both teams. IF the team you are playing is not aggresive, and thinks they can camp their flags and defend them from being overtaken to accumulate the extra points, they will loose, no questions asked.

So far there are many good points brought up. I personally enjoy the proposed scoring change and can't wait to see it on a larger map. The DOM ladder definately needs a shot in the arm and this proposal just might do that.

Either way we go with the rules, we need to do it fast or drop the ladder from the league. It doesn't make sense to allocate time and resources for a ladder with 10-13 active teams. I would hate to see that route taken but if we can't get more teams playing it is probably going to happen on it's own.

sadly I agree. I would hate to see the ladder go, but it needs life brought back into it. I love the domination game mode, but competition atm is limited to a few select teams. There are new teams coming up the rungs, but not enough to amount to anything.

So let's get this vote going BW

Bullett -- PAM UO Version 3.0 is out and running well! Great job! When can you get out the vote on the new Domination scoring or can anyone take this on sooner than later... the community is speaking.