Back to Soldier of Fortune 2

Status of TWL

Historical capture recovered from the Wayback Machine · captured 2003-01-30 · 21 posts
Even tho I only play SOF2, I tend hear things from the other communities. I have no personal feelings RE: HEL, however, there are rumors about TWL and HEL, and a relationship that may have been formed.

So, with that out of the way... I'm asking, will this relationship, if there is one, have any effect on the SOF2 league? I'd just like to know now, up front.

***This is in NO WAY meant to become a FLAME thread, please don't make it so***
Wow, I'm really glad that my concerns were laid to rest so eloquently. Thanks.

PS. Tonight marks our last night on TWHEL. GGs to you all, hope to see you around.
what is hel?
You're better off not knowing who they are.

Great match, it's too bad we're leaving with a loss...
Post edited by Delta at 12/4/2002 12:05:21 AM
HEL? As in Hell's Elite Legions? Or are we talking some other HEL?
no hes talkin about clan [HEL]
SWATMASTA
Hell's Elite Legions is clan [HEL]
Yes HEL is a clan. They've "purchased" twl to the point where twl can't ban their members, and twl fires people for emails that hel doesn't like, and cries to twl about.

This originally effected the MW4 league, so we didn't care. But recently hel's been messing with the RVS league. HEL hates AC. So, if HEL can effect MW4 and RVS, they can get their paws on us in sof2 also.

TWL has been bought people. And I was hoping to get some kind of guarentee from satoshi that it wouldn't effect SOF2, but I haven't. The integrity of this never ending ladder has been compromised, and it sickens me.

Therefore, I am leaving. I guess AC's SOF2 CTF team is staying, but not me. Not after this. GL to you all, and GL to AC CTF.
Originally posted by: Delta

Yes HEL is a clan. They've "purchased" twl to the point where twl can't ban their members, and twl fires people for emails that hel doesn't like, and cries to twl about.

Incorrect. HEL has no more influence over the TWL than AC or any other clan does. HEL members who deserve a ban will be banned like any other member does. HEL has in no way, shape, or form contributed to the TWL in any way other than participating on the ladders.

This originally effected the MW4 league, so we didn't care.

The only event on MW4 regarding HEL membership was the reinstatement of an historically "black hat" MW4 player to the TWL community. That person does not post on the MW4 forums, however certain people in the MW4 community who despise him felt they would make a production issue out of. Perfectly understandable, but its really a non-issue seeing as his involvement in that forum is zero.


But recently hel's been messing with the RVS league.

An RvS admin, who plays for a division of your clan, was removed because of hateful emails sent to user of our system. Yes, the user was a HEL member, but that has nothing to do with the reason he was asked to leave. Admins must be held to a higher standard and he did not meet that standard.

HEL hates AC.

I have to disagree on this. From everything I have EVER seen, its the other way around.

So, if HEL can effect MW4 and RVS, they can get their paws on us in sof2 also.

Not really. The one HEL member who is the center of all this has really nothing to do with any game right now and has no influence over anything. He and I have spoken about some possible arrangements between the TWL and the company he works for to provide some services to the user communtity that would service everyone. One of the stipulations for any arrangements that may come of this is there is no expectation of preferential treatment. Only 2 thnigs have happened thus far - 1) he was reinstated on the forums, 2) he forwarded a couple hateful emails from an administrative staffer who was released as a result.

It should be noted that all service arrangements that have been discussed will beneefit the community and his company long before they will benefit the TWL.

TWL has been bought people.

We run hundreds of dollars in the red every month. We have no ads. We have no revenue stream what so ever. If we've been bought then someone neglected to send me the check.

And I was hoping to get some kind of guarentee from satoshi that it wouldn't effect SOF2, but I haven't.

Satoshi is on vacation. I am responding to your questions as soon as they were brought to my attention. As for a guarantee, I will promise you that HEL will have no more influence regarding the operations our ladders or forums than anyone else.

The integrity of this never ending ladder has been compromised, and it sickens me.

It is apparent you have not received all the facts.


Therefore, I am leaving. I guess AC's SOF2 CTF team is staying, but not me. Not after this. GL to you all, and GL to AC CTF.

I am sorry that you are going. If you would like further details and have additional questions, feel free to ask here or in IRC and I would be glad to respond.

]CkB[Polaris
Teamwarfare Director of Operations
Alright, that was all I was asking for.
However, emails from one person to another, and forwarded to you, really is poor grounds for dismissal. That in and of itself shows the influence HEL has. Perhaps I was overreacting, but removing someone you chose as an admin for an email to someone with whom there's been a long rivalry is hardly a normal reaction. I'm glad someone pointed this out to you polaris, at least you responded, rather than lock/delete. Thanks.
But I still don't trust a league that would fire an admin over an email. I'm not quite sure that there were rules for conduct of admins at the time of the appointment. The admin posted his email in our forums, in our public forums, and no member of HEL said "that's not the email he sent." The "hateful email" you are talking about wasn't that bad, at least not the version we saw.
But enough about this. I'm done. And I'm going to continue to inform the rest of the SOF2 community about this.
You have yet to show me any other emails other then the one that's posted here that I sent to Asmo, Polaris. I've asked for those other emails on more then one occasion and you have failed to provide them for me. I can tell you there there are NO other emails other then this one and it was merely sent to inform said leader of said clan to stop being an ass about things.

-START-
From: "Menace"
To:
Subject: Oooh
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 08:11:02 -0800

That loss has GOT TO STING...sorry it wasn't AC that did it to you, but MG is just as well. But I see that your normal bitching about some injustice speil is still in gear...dude, your prized chapter lost a match...don't make them look like assholes cause YOU'RE an asshole...leave them that dignity. I mean sure you have good pilots over in that chapter and thier record, no matter how unperfect it is, is still impressive even though you aren't counting that one map you lost to AC back when...

Even though I know your ego can't take a loss, don't make thier efforts and thier skill look bad in the communities eyes by adding in your crackpot opinions...cause that's all it's doing.

So, I eagerly await your reply of how my mom and pop clan sucks, blah blah blah, more of the same innane shit you spew...cause I do love it all...

Hugs and Kisses,

Menace
-END-

Post edited by Menace at 12/5/2002 3:16:24 PM
Originally posted by: Delta
I'm not quite sure that there were rules for conduct of admins at the time of the appointment.

There indeed are rules of conduct for admins. They are in our staff forum for all admins to see. The ex-admin in question was warned along with every other admin about gudges against the HEL player several times, and the email was the last straw. The HEL player dropped the issue, and the admin did not.

We expect the admins to respect not only the players and the ladders they admin over, but also all players in all communities. We trust the admins to conduct themselves in a mature and respecable manner. If we find that our trust is misplaced, we have no choice but to remove admins.
Post edited by Vlasic at 12/5/2002 5:36:05 PM
OMFG. My last statement to you TWHEL people, is ...

Perhaps all of you need to review your rules then.

There is some shady shit going on in TWHEL, and you, the admins, are the ones involved. A lousy EMAIL is the least shady thing possible! AND YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.
No
.Apollo the Assassin.
Originally posted by: Delta

OMFG. My last statement to you TWHEL people, is ...

Perhaps all of you need to review your rules then.

There is some shady shit going on in TWHEL, and you, the admins, are the ones involved. A lousy EMAIL is the least shady thing possible! AND YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.

Nothing shady going on. I have openly discussed this issue a number of times in open forums (MW4 to be precise) and in personal conversations with members of your team. Menace was hired as an admin and then proceeded to send an email with was explicitly against policy and had nothing to do with his role as admin. It was better than he be removed rather than have a huge fight on our hands, which would have been the result. This is part of a series of events that culminated in his removal. Sucks too. He'd have been a great admin.

As I have said at least a dozen time onvarioius TWL forums, feel free to ask me in IRC or email about the details if you have further concerns. Everyone who has done so as come to the same conclusion. There is nothing shady going on. I am sorry we cannt quench you thirst for tabloid drama, there really isnt anything to hide. All this boils down to is a rabid hatred of a HEL member on the part of several AC members. The fixation on him is the issue at hand. Neither he nor the TWL have done anything to warrant concern over the operations of this ladder or any other.

How are you concerned about his influence over SoF2? What do you think can happen? Do you think they will get rulings in their favor simply because i know one of their members? I know CkB members and even run the clan, yet I have ruled against them. I know 5150 and they get no preferential treatment. Hell, I even know AC members, one of whom is the son of a member of my clan. I played RTCW religously with AC members on your server. I have always LOVED AC as a clan and spoken highly of your team, yet I get flak for issues and situations that you know almost nothing about.

Time to get over your hatred for HEL and its membership. They have no influence over the ladders or leagues.

]CkB[Polaris
Teamwarfare Director of Operations
OK, so it wasn't my last statement. I have no hatred of HEL or the member in question. I was never a part of HEL, nor do I know the member at all.

The POINT is: The email(s) you're talking about are not "Hateful" and there's only one. Not MANY.

The POINT is: An ADMIN asking a clan leader not to post whinning complaints about "cheating" should NOT get that admin FIRED!

The POINT is: Had the HEL member not sent you the email, and probably told you to fire him, he wouldn't have been fired!

I'm not concerned about judgements in any way. Especially now that this is open to the community. I won't talk to you via irc because this is information that the community has a right to hear, and even if we did chat or email, you can bet I'd post the contents on here also. I've read your conversations with the various members of AC, and although you think it settled everything it didn't. That's the reason our clan is considering mass withdrawl from this ladder that we've played on for so long.

I've never had a hatred for anyone Polaris, this was merely a request for confirmation that nothing would effect the ladder. However, your word means absolutely nothing to me. I already know you can't be trusted. I was hoping Satoshi would be able to seperate himself from you, and give me his word, that you and your HEL friend wouldn't be able to interfere with SOF2. So he's on vacation and that leaves the ladder in your hands. So that leaves me with my decision to leave.
Originally posted by: Delta

OK, so it wasn't my last statement. I have no hatred of HEL or the member in question. I was never a part of HEL, nor do I know the member at all.

I didnt say you did. I said AC members did.


The POINT is: The email(s) you're talking about are not "Hateful" and there's only one. Not MANY.

You have seen one. There are 3 emails as well as several forum posts, one of which included the HEL player's picture for the purposes of taunting.


The POINT is: An ADMIN asking a clan leader not to post whinning complaints about "cheating" should NOT get that admin FIRED!

At the surface thats what this appears to be, but in truth its deeper than that. The player who was addressed in the email had said nothing regarding the match. The purpose of the email - and the reason the admin was removed - was to bait the HEL member into a fight. The email was sent from a staffer who does not play MW4 to a member of the community who ALSO does not play MW4 regarding a MW4 match that was globally accepted as fairly and well played by the victor.


The POINT is: Had the HEL member not sent you the email, and probably told you to fire him, he wouldn't have been fired!

The point is that if the admin in question did not have a long embattled history with HEL and some of its members I would nat have been in a position to have to choose. It would have taken the admin all of 2 seconds to reconsider whis email and how it effects other people. The vendetta was more important. No one is capable if telling me to fire anyone. I espcially wouldnt fire someone based on the instructions of someone outside the staff, I dont care if it was the Pope asking.


I'm not concerned about judgements in any way. Especially now that this is open to the community.

It has always been open tot he community, at least anyone who asked.

I won't talk to you via irc because this is information that the community has a right to hear, and even if we did chat or email, you can bet I'd post the contents on here also.

I find IRC easier, but here is fine. I have nothing to hide.


I've read your conversations with the various members of AC, and although you think it settled everything it didn't. That's the reason our clan is considering mass withdrawl from this ladder that we've played on for so long.

There is nothing to settle. I spoke the truth about what has happened and I have been upfront from day one regarding all the relationships that have occured regarding Teamwarfare. If its not settled then people should have said so. The issue is simple - Some AC members dont like some HEL members and find it important to drag them in the mud at all costs. Lets take 2 seconds and really look at what has happened.

1) A HEL member was reinstated with forum access. This occured after a phone conversation. That phone call was 2 parts. 1) he asked for a second chance on our forums. 2) he wanted to introduce me to his boss who is interested in a relationship with the community to help HIS bisuness and the users. We were insterested in talking tot he boss because the USERS would benefit from it. It is a mutually beneficial agreement? Yes. They get a pipeline to the community, we provide the community with a resource, making happy users. The HEL member posted for about 3 days on the MW4 forum and has not returned. Discussions between me and the HEL members boss have continued with no stipulation regarding HEL or any of its members.

2) Several members of HEL found that a player was smurfing on their team. We investigated and that turned out to be true. The player was punished. No actions were taken against anyone else.

3) After clearing up the relationship between HEL and TWL, Menace joined staff. It was clear that he understood that there are standards of behavior that are expected of admins. Hes a very smart guy, he knew what he had to do.

4) He didnt do it. He sent an unneeded and spiteful email as part of an ongoing feud with HEL to someone who had no input or opinion on the result of a well played match. I explained this to the admin and he was removed.

5) You post here asking what the status is and making references to the notion that HEL bought us. Like I said before, I have not received ANY moeny for TWL work other than small contributions from the community that were used to buy redundant hardware after our crash this summer.


I've never had a hatred for anyone Polaris, this was merely a request for confirmation that nothing would effect the ladder.

Which I answered.


However, your word means absolutely nothing to me. I already know you can't be trusted.

Not be trusted how? Because Menace sent and email he shouldnt have and was removed from an admin role he held for about a week? You dont have to trust me if you dont want, but everything is here for all to see.

I was hoping Satoshi would be able to seperate himself from you, and give me his word, that you and your HEL friend wouldn't be able to interfere with SOF2. So he's on vacation and that leaves the ladder in your hands. So that leaves me with my decision to leave.

The ladder isnt in my hands. I am simply answering concerns you have, openly and hoestly. If you dont believe me, there is nothing i can do about that. Its your choice to leave, but there is no real cause, imo. What has been done to you or your team that would warrant it? AC hasnt been ruled against. They have not been condemned. They have not lost rank or been removed from any opportunity that anyone else has. There are simply AC members that dont like HEL and refuse to deal with the fact that I wont ban him for what he may or may not have done before I even started to talk with the guy or knew his name.

]CkB[Polaris
Teamwarfare Director of Operations
Alright polaris, you've done nothing wrong.
Nothin shady at all about unbanning a guy who can cut you a deal. Nothin shady at all about firing someone you chose to lead a ladder because you got 3 emails, one we've seen, and 2 that you won't share, that this admin supposedly wrote. Nothin shady at all about continuing discussions with this memeber. Nothing.
But if it were me, I'd stick to my employees, especially my admins, and back them before I'd back someone you have no ties to.
I'm pretty sure that since the admin was only an admin for a week, he probably only sent that one email during his tenure. The dates of the forum posts, and the pic display were prior to his "employ" and shouldn't effect his status as an admin. So, with that said, maybe you should have warned him off, one last time for this only violation while an admin. Your actions were a little too severe to be unbiased. That's really all i'm saying.
"You have seen one. There are 3 emails as well as several forum posts, one of which included the HEL player's picture for the purposes of taunting."

AGAIN, for the FOURTH time, I ask that you send me these other emails for verification of thier validity. I would like to know what these are since I only sent ONE to him.

And how you read AC's forums but fail to read HEL's forums astounds me Polaris. On his own forums his crys and whines about how MG cheated and yet when I and EVERYONE else is there to call him the bitch he is for whining you say I bait him into a fight.

SHOW ME THE EMAILS POLARIS...you can't...there aren't any others then the one I posted here. But by all means...if you have them...show them to me.

To tell you the truth, I didn't even realize TWL had anything to do with games other than Tribes until I bought SoF2 today.

Also: Delta, wah

That is all.
you guys seriously i prolly shouldn't stick my nose in this one but i feel i have to. I really get pissed off when people accuse me of shit and then dont back it up with proof and info that can be delivered to me so i can see the truth. if you cant send him the other emails just admit that you lied and that you really are tied with [HEL] and get this over with instead of going on and on and on with apologies and other crud just so you dont have to get around to sending these "supposed" other emails! it cracks me up in fact ***LMAO***
ya im on Delta's side for this one, at least until they get these emails delivered to them on these supposed emails with pictures to ridicule an ugly boy. it isnt his fault thats the way he was born.
SWATMASTA

21 posts recovered