CTF maps

Well, my team just played their first CTF match and with these random gen maps we really have no desire to play another. We could be completely alone on this, but does anyone else dislike playing on these random gen maps?

There's alot of good CTF maps out there that doesn't feel like you have to hike 100 miles just to even see the opponent flag. We normally enjoy playing CTF and like a good action packed match, but even 10 on 10 the maps felt empty last night. Two out of three maps were decided in overtime and the first one went to over 40 minutes of a no-score.

Is this really how everyone enjoys playing CTF? I'd really like to see some of the regular or even player created maps in the rotation instead of these random gens. I think CTF as a gametype has alot of potential to be really high paced and fun, but from what we saw in the match its more of a question of who falls asleep at the keyboard first.

If no one agrees with me, that's fine. Maybe it was just us.
/shrug

Post edited by GarathK at 11/4/2002 9:46:37 AM

what size map did u play on???

10v10 is good on medium only...

wasn't our server but I believe medium was the size. I feel it was just too large though. Maybe I'm just used to playing on the smaller sized INF maps, but it was way too large for my team. We fell asleep at the wheel and no one has any desire to play another CTF match with the random gen.

The TWL stands apart from other leagues in that it uses RMG maps. This is what attracts teams to it. The standard game maps are to restricting and wind up being a game of Quake not SoF2. Throwing grenades in hallways is not exactly a demonstration of skill. People memorize the standard maps and the game winds up being the same thing all the time. Boring and repetitive. RMG maps come in all shapes and sizes and each team has an equal shot at a "new map" they haven't memorized. There are several leagues out there that do only use the standard maps. Perhaps you would be more content in one of those. The TWL offers a choice between the two types of leagues. Changing this one to be like all the others removes that choice.

well.. TWL has been moving in the 'majority rules' direction lately anyways and is becoming like other leagues. Why not in this too?

That aside, like I said difference of opinions. Personally I felt there was little to no skill involved in it. You put up a decent defense and it becomes a game of patience rather than skill or strategy. Who makes the first mistake. Long 40 minute games with little action because of the sheer size of the maps is NOT my idea of a good time. I wouldn't mind the random gen at all if they were smaller. IMO as it stands its just too damn boring. I agree with the 'new' feel each map brings, but the size is too much.

Have you tried the smaller RMG maps? I have played on many where the spawns could snipe on each other. I admit I personally like those that I can move out of sight of the other team. To me that promotes tactics. Maps like HK2 for example, you know everything. The passages between flags, the hiding places. There is nothing left to the imagination. Having had a half a dozen TWL matches or so I can say there has never been anything quiet, calm or boring. We have always had 20 minutes of action and several overtime games. By the time I get done my t-shirt is soaked. Not sure I could ask for much more out of an on line game.

Map/Side Selection

The Ladder is based on a best 2 out of 3 maps scenario. The first 2 maps will be randomly generated using the in game random map generator. Maps must be medium sized. The tie-breaker (TB) map, if needed, will be chosen by the defending team. Sides for the first 2 maps will be selected by the Defending team with the Attackers getting the side selection for the TB map (if it is needed).

we had to play medium maps, small isn't offered for TWL.. and we had 10v10, and it really was too big, even for medium.. it takes 3-4 min, sometimes more, to effectivly get back across a map just to where the flag is... then the time required to run it back.. all in a 20 min match... no wonder most of the matches goto ot.. and what does that say... when the scores are so low and the majority of matches goto OT? Its too big for 8v8 to finish in 20 min overall... at least put up a vote for teams on the ladder for small random maps.. it will increase the tempo of the game and possibly not have people sitting on the same map for 60 min.

about tactics,.. tactics are developed no matter what size map or game for that matter.

we never played T2.. so we are proof that TWL is growing from "a T2 league" to something more... the admins seem to do a good job of fixing things that need it, and usually are open to ideas... I understand TWL is different from the other leagues, and we like that for the most part.. but playing a map, not even a match but a single map, for 60 min was boring even on a random map... I read a post on another clans forum board where it went the 20 min reg time, then 59 min after that... 1hr and 20 min for one map..thats silly.. If we are the only ones complaining, then we can drop... but before you dismiss it out of hand, take a look at the idea at least.

my team, MDK, has played 8 matches now in the ctf twl ladder. We love this ladder cause it focuses on the one component that diferentiates sof2 from the ocean of first person shooters available, that being the random generated map. Out of all the matches we have played some were the big medium maps, but most were small rmg. We ussually discuss with the other team and decided to play the smaller maps to keep action hot. I personally think they should change this ladder to all small rmg maps, medium is too big. I think this is the only change that should be made. The addition of other maps would make this ladder no different than the other ladders. Now what we need is a RMG ctf tourney. BY The way, wtg TWL. Great ladder.
WiT

Having played on the MW4 side for over two years there is one thing about the TWL among others that I really like. If the two Captains agree during a match to a change the TWL does not normally interfere. In our recent match with MDK we looked at the map that was generated and agreed it was to big. We reset for small and played on. I suspect if you could get another team to agree to play you on one of the "standard" maps that would be ok. There is the "letter of the law" and then the "spirit of the rules". If the other team didn't want to, fine then the rules say RMG so that is what you do. If they said ok then the Captains agreement is within the "spirit" of the TWL. Now the problem with this would be if one team AFTER the fact didn't like the outcome and screamed "foul", we didn't play the right map! Then that becomes a "pissing contest" and you could rightfully expect the admins to follow the rules. It pays to know the teams you are playing. Teams tend to respect each other over time and even generate friendships. You typically will never hear them bitch or whine about each other or minor things that might happen. The admins on the MW4 side pretty much run the show in the way I have described. I don't want to speak for the admins over here in SoF2 and my thoughts are simply that, my thoughts. We joined this league specifically to play RMG maps. It is one of the few that offer that. There are many that do not and we do not need to be like the rest. Try some small RMG's I will bet the other team will be ok with that.

Hey, I'm all for small RMG. My team played a few last night and LOVED it. I would be 100% back in full action on the CTF ladder if I was assured that all the maps were the 'small' variation of RMG. The mediums are just too large.

And you are right that most teams will agree to play different maps or a different size RMG but there is too much risk of someone calling 'foul' after the end of the match. Right now the rules specifically state medium size. Maybe we could get that changed. The last thing I want is an admin intervention and a 'pissing contest' as someone put it because a team lost on a non-ruleset type map.

CTF as a gametype is too much fun to give up on and TWL is where the most CTF action is (as little or as much as that is) for sof2. I know that historically TWL hasn't given much attention to CTF but it would be nice to get the rules updated.

Which btw, being that I'd like to get more involved with CTF, I'll be happy to send a server.cfg settings for CTF based on the rules when they get updated. Send attn to Satoshi?

My clan would love to play more CTF and most of the CTF clans have been really fun to scrim/match and have great attitudes. Even this discussion has been very cival

LOL! Well this has been a most pleasant "disagreement". You guys should see the flames flying in the MW4 forum. This game and this ladder is what WE all make it to be. Funny thing about the game itself. In a MW4 game even on the pubs there is rarely any problems but when you get to the forums all hell breaks loose. Many people playing SoF2 on the pubs have about the nastiest "mouth" I can recall in gaming in a long time. The forums on the other hand are quite civilized, strange indeed. I think perhaps it has to do with responsible leadership.

Speaking of that I was quite impressed with MDK Wit last night when I played on there server. There was a young man who had obvious skills but the "mouth of a sailor". He was asking about membership in MDK and was told no. My congratulations to MDK on "their standards" for membership.

rofl.. well I come from the Jk2 forums and whew.. those were a flame fest and a half.. Both on the forums AND in the pubs..

I've been reading this all day, and lots of good points.

My 2 cents, I like how it is. Some medium maps just seem bigger than others. Guess it depends on the seed and stuff. I remember one match where we reset like 2 times just to make sure it was a decent map, but once we had it, it's like one of those random maps you wish you could save for later.

I think the same applies to the small maps. There are some that do that "flags are 4 foot apart and spawn is a mile away" crap... In that instance, it still deserves a reset as well...

If you go from medium to small, maybe set a 3 restart limit so maps are out of hand. Defending team decides on map.


As for clans and stuff, the ranking ones on ANY ladder are usually great to play with. RARELY have I seen one that would allow ANY member to disgrace the name of the clan. MDK is great, and there are lots of others...

I don't want TWL to change their map standards (rmg) cause it's the one factor that sets them apart. GO TWL!!

-Biz

Originally posted by: GarathK
Hey, I'm all for small RMG. My team played a few last night and LOVED it. I would be 100% back in full action on the CTF ladder if I was assured that all the maps were the 'small' variation of RMG. The mediums are just too large.

Garath and I are on the same team, and I should have been more specific in what we were looking for.... we like the ramdom gen maps, and think that they are more of a challenge... we just didn't enjoy the medium maps at all... I'd like to play some small random maps in this ladder.. it would speed the matches up, while still offering the element of the unknown on the maps... and if some teams are already playing small maps, there is obviously some folk who would prefer this.. maybe we could get a CTF team founder vote on the size of maps

and yes, we played JK2... just go read their forums, its worth it for the entertainment value alone... and that attitude prevails in and out of matches.

I agree, its nice to disagree on forums w/o flames for once. This is a pretty civil forum board overall.

Just a minor point. Some small maps really suck as well. Some maps put the two flags 20 feet apart and most teams don't like that style of game. Perhaps it should read small/medium maps as agreed to by the Captains. Generate a medium map and if it is to large try perhaps one more. If you still have a "clinker" then go to small as try again. As I think about almost every match we have played the "hosting" team has put up the first map in advance and has asked "is this one ok". 80% of the time it is. If there was any issue they simply "did another one". No question about it, this group is far to civilized..... :-)

That sounds like a good suggestion. small/medium. Tough to judge a RGM just by the map though.. gotta run around it a little to get a size feel. I'm definately encouraged by this and I think we'll play some more CTF now

Great to hear that. As the action on the ladder can be somewhat slow and sporatic how about a scrimmage?

definately.. our site is http://www.aoi-guild.com (go right to the forums.. no one uses the actual site lol)

or get ahold of me directly @ garyck_gab@hotmail.com (MSN or email)

I just forwarded the information to Delta and Smak our two captains. I am sure you will hear from them shortly. Looking forward to it.

As far as the CTF Map size I agree the W-i-T, Small seems to be best and the re is some variation even on the small. When we played MDK we did not start till both sides agreed the map was adaquate. I thank MDK for that option, and I think most of the Team captains would take this same approach. The Med maps are to big for 14-16 players and it really is not much fun taking 3 mins just to hike to the base of the other team, get killed repeat. Much harder to apply pressure when the opposing team Def gets 3 mins of rest between engagements.

This and $1.50 will get you on the bus.
GG MDK BTW.
D-Fragger

slowly seem to be striking a nerve... think we have enough folk on the CTF ladder to take it to an admin?

Nice site but I couldn't find the forums link? Do you have to register before you see that?

forum link is the top message..

or point to http://forums.aoi-guild.com

Okay, I am going to get a vote setup here soon, it will be a team founder only vote, to choose either Medium or Small once and for all.

Satoshi
TeamWarfare Admin

Okay, vote is up, link is here

Satoshi
TeamWarfare Admin

thanks Satoshi

Great idea doing the vote founder only, Satoshi. I will pass the link along to some of the other leaders. I appreciate the comments from you guys about MDK. I have to send some props back your way. I am happy we have teams like AC, K-22, POK, and even LL in ctf. These are a few of the organized teams keeping ctf moving forward. With so many crappy teams with bad attitudes junking up the ladders, it is good to know that matches with you all are always good fun. Since we are lucky enough to have so many respectble good ears reading this forum, I want to urge you guys to go out and find another ctf team to help get going. Our community has a lot of good players looking for teams and most of us are too big to adopt them. Yet, I know so many smaller clans that need guys and cant attract players without a reputation. If we can make relationships with these smaller clans and hook them up with the guys that keep asking to join our clans, we will grow this community and make it strong with personal realationships. I know this sounds odd, building your enemy. Keep in mind that the more competative teams we help build, the more fun the ladders will become.
WiT

Wow, I've never seen such a Civil debate before... like Garathk I've come from the JKII boards, most of the time there the point of the debate is lost and it becomes a who can flame better and call people noobs in new creative ways conversation.

lol.. NCG cannon right? yah jk2 was horrible.. minus the latest love fest.. but it won't last..

I'm forming an SoF2 CTF team and will be playing with you all soon. (Within next two days we should be ready to go.) Can't wait to starting playing the RGM's and having WSBN cast the top of the ladder!



Taxi@WSBN.com
Web Sports Broadcast Network

Yep the JKII NCG team folded so I'm playing on the NCG Sof2 team now.

so how long is this vote gonna be up?

There needs to be more votes made. There are only 5 founders that have voted so far.

Satoshi
TeamWarfare Admin

well.. all 5 have voted small.. might as well appease the active clans

Originally posted by: Satoshi

There needs to be more votes made. There are only 5 founders that have voted so far.

votes been up for 9 days.. if they don't care enough to go vote either way, they why worry about it?.. the 5 that voted all voted the same.. I can understand that folk may not log in, but almost 10 days is a long time not to log in and ck stuff out... and thats prob. the reason so many forefits happen, no one logins in and looks.. if they care that little, then they will not give a crap on what size maps they play on.

blah.. apparently none of the other founders read the boards - not that I'm surprised, the sof2 boards are not very active. Or we really have that many inactive teams on CTF ladder.. I doubt that since we haven't had a forfeit win in awhile. Are we going to leave the vote up forever or let majority rule?

Its just like voting for your governer or president in the US, you have an opportunity to vote and make your voice heard or you can let others make the decision for you. In this case, either through ignorance of the vote or through apathy, the other clans on the CTF ladder have waived their right to vote. I will say that I haven't played on a medium map since we started talking about this. Every clan we've played likes small maps also.

Please just make the change.

Ok. All CTF matches are to be played using small maps from now on. The rules have been changed to refelct this.

Satoshi
TeamWarfare Admin

ty Satoshi