about the tunnels issue..

Jar and myself had a lengthy discussion about it in mirc (i also feel worse about my comments having found out hes not the asshole i thought he was, but a decent guy) and it came down to these 2 opinions....


My opinion is this isnt what the map makers intended, as protecting the vip is understood when your objective is to rescue him, which it is. My arguement was whats the point of having the rescue chopper if the idea of the map wasnt to rescue him. i feel thats not the way the game was meant to be played.


Jarlaxle's opinion was basically that the map is hard enough to begin with, and anyway you can sqeak by it is ok with him.also saying that there is no chance of a dbl loss on nafrica since the creators didnt intend for people to get into the crash building, so therefore the reason that protectors lose if the vip isnt rescued. so they didnt just hide him in the building for the entire round and waste everyones time.

i would like team people to vote on this. he agreed if enough people supported my point of view, a rules change would be made. he also stated that if we scrimmed his squad and did that tactic effectively on them, he would support my point of view. (that will happen this week)

i propose the rules change to be that any double loss on tunnels becomes a win for the TSR squad, as anyone trying to PROTECT and RESCUE THE VIP will either get him rescued, or the VIP will end up dead, so there will be no doubt as to the outcome, or if the other team intentionally tried to run out the clock.

this map is different then antarctica or argentina in that there is a clear objective in this map, much like a bombing map, and thru improper support of the game this "glitch" allows a team to gain an advantage by winning a round, then playing only to not allow the other team to win, and not trying to win the map being currently played, which goes against all i thought this league stood for..
Post edited by CAPTMORGAN at 7/28/2002 6:56:42 PM

Sounds good to me. I still think it's a tough enough map, and there are 0 places where the VIP can be hidden where the defending team can't reach him. I feel playing for the tie on Tunnel should be a valid tactic considering escorting the VIP is almost 90% guaranteed loss.

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^^^ Jarlaxle is not as asshole.

My vote is with Capt.

Originally posted by: Creamy Goodness part 2

http://www.goladder.com
^^^ Jarlaxle is not as asshole.

My vote is with Capt.

hahaha

p owns

ps tonight on tunnel, i was playing VIP and i got killed near the fans when the opposing team charged and killed all my teammates.

I think with the Tunnel map, playing for a tie is acceptable,since the terrorists can reach the vip anywhere and usually succeed in taking him out.
On N.Africa however, if no effort is made to rescue the vip and keep him in the crash building on purpose should ber considered a win for the terrorists; When the time runs out, they have amassed reinforcements or called an airstrike or something else to kill the vip so the CT's must get him out quick, or lose the map.

I would have to agree with capt. It's my belief that the objective on tunnel is to escort the vip to safety, and therefore protecting him is obvious. I think that protecting him with no attempt to meet the objective in a game that allows respawning reduces the flow of the game, and allows a team to win a round by essentially failing to meet what I consider the primary goal.

But don't forget, in order to win a match in such a way (with double losses actually being a win for one team because of that team leading with 1-0) that team must also have won another map. And it's not that easy to protect the vip on the tunnel, even without him moving, and it's perfectly possible to rush him. It may be a lame tactic, but also quite dangerous; you forfeit almost all iniative your team has.
Post edited by Diceman at 7/29/2002 8:50:18 AM

diceman, first off, nafrica doesnt have the double loss, so thats different. secondly, that means either you have an option of either
a: both playing the map lame, both rounds possibly getting double losses, and therefore remove the entire purpose of playing the map, since neither team would have a win.
b: have 1 team play the map the way it was intended, and the other not do that, giving the advantage to the team who doesnt play the map the way it was intended. so if we pick up a win defending hte rescue zone, and then play lame, in a 4 round match, a win for us, and then a loss for both is the same as another win for us, since now only 1 more round win clinches the match, much like if we had won both rounds on tunnels.

my point is the map i dont believe was intended to be played that way, and i feel thats poor sportsmanship, in doing whatever you can for a win. much like wearing stickum as a wide-receiver or defensive back. if the only reason you joined the league was to brag to your friends your the top clan in a league with a max of 20 competing teams in the world, then thats fine, you need some work on your priorities, but fine. i joined the league since i tired of pub play not playing the game the way it was meant.

fireblade: as i said to jar, i think only poor teams cant defend the vip well up there, or those who didnt bother to practice defending him up there. thus we are having a scrim with MH this week on that map doing that exact strat to prove it to him and you. each team defend him up there for 1 round, so both can see its fairly easy to get the result your team wants defending him there.


arent those of us in the league supposed to be the players who truly play the game the way it was meant to be played???

Morgan, like you said, it isn't an issue on Africa, and in the Tunnel it's always possible to get the vip without resorting to glitches. So to be honest I don't quite see your point...
Off course it's a lame tactic, but not impossible to overcome.

I agree with Cappy's solution...

-[KC]Zulu Echo November-

Originally posted by: Diceman

Morgan, like you said, it isn't an issue on Africa, and in the Tunnel it's always possible to get the vip without resorting to glitches. So to be honest I don't quite see your point...
Off course it's a lame tactic, but not impossible to overcome.

my point is its not how the game was meant to be played, and since the game creators wont be fixing anything with the game, its up to us. do YOU think the games creators intended for a double loss to occur? my point is the objective is to attempt to get the VIP rescued, not to hide for a double loss. if you are indeed attempting to get the vip rescued, he will either get rescued or end up dead, so a double loss isnt an issue. that is my point, by making a double loss a win for TSR, that ensures BOTH teams attempt to complete all objectives, which SHOULD be the object of the game, right?

Originally posted by: CAPTMORGAN

Originally posted by: Diceman

Morgan, like you said, it isn't an issue on Africa, and in the Tunnel it's always possible to get the vip without resorting to glitches. So to be honest I don't quite see your point...
Off course it's a lame tactic, but not impossible to overcome.

my point is its not how the game was meant to be played, and since the game creators wont be fixing anything with the game, its up to us. do YOU think the games creators intended for a double loss to occur? my point is the objective is to attempt to get the VIP rescued, not to hide for a double loss. if you are indeed attempting to get the vip rescued, he will either get rescued or end up dead, so a double loss isnt an issue. that is my point, by making a double loss a win for TSR, that ensures BOTH teams attempt to complete all objectives, which SHOULD be the object of the game, right?

They most likely DID intend for a double loss to be able to be occur, because in Nafrica there is no double loss (because it is very easy to keep the VIP where he cannot be reached, they most likely didn't take boosting into account)

I see that there are two options here:

1) have a rule change such as captmorgan suggested

or

2) gather logs and light that fire, because tunnel will be the biggest campground around.


And I don't think that any of us know what the devs intended. This is a dev team with such great features as 1) an autobalance feature that doesn't work maps with VIP 2) countless map bugs... i guess that since it is in there, the roof on sri lanka WAS intended
3) disappearing items
4) etc, no need to keep typing them all...

So it is up to everyone to decide how THEY want to have a ladder played since there will be no decision from a dev.
Post edited by TommyToughGuy at 7/29/2002 3:58:10 PM

This is some of the stupidest, lamest BS I have seen. Isn't this a ladder? Aren't we playing matches to determine a victor? If a round doesn't end in a victory/loss, why bother playing. Who plays for a TIE? Defending playing for a tie is BS. If this is what this ladder is coming down to, then maybe it's time for OTC to move on because this is BS.

Bravo has already pulled out of TWL because of in-match BS and now this pathetic display. Deku, I'm seriously losing respect for SAS. Playing for a tie? How frigging lame is that? You can try to rationize it anyway you what, but it adds up to CHEAP. If I was admin, your victory (as hollow as it was) would be pulled and the match reset.

CAPTMORGAN, you've been jobbed. Plain and simple.

Let's stop bringing up NAfrica Geno, if you weren't meant to be able to jump up there, there wouldn't be the slabs postioned that give you just the right height to jump on a team mates back. Give it rest.

Playing for a tie is NOT competition, it's just plain LAME. If this is what we lowering ourselves to keep ones spot on the ladder, then you can have the GOD damn thing. I hope the ladder is fun when there is only half dozen real teams left. Now, I'm going to go get something to wash this taste out of my mouth.

Seems easy to me, If the "Objective" is not completed its a loss, simple, there will always be people who will take the easy way or less honorable route. But hey since the point has been brought up and debated why not stop using tunnel in a ladder match ? I salute you Captmorgan for sticking to your principles. your right of course it was a less than honorable tactic, But now that the tactic is out, everyone will be using it me thinks, Unless tunnel is taken out of a ladder match contest.

Captmorgans views get my nod



Post edited by tr|Hydro at 7/29/2002 8:10:42 PM

Um beowolf seems a little upset..... I agree as i stated time and agin. We need a rule on this issue.......

Disgusted is a better word.

thanks for the support guys, im over the disgust, so dont let it bother you beawulf..

I really don't STRONGLY object to making a rule disallowing camping the VIP. But I don't see how a legitimate, altough sort of lame, tactic can disgust you.

My team, fox, will always play to win, not to tie a round. That may give us some lost matches, but also some won matches.
A rule where camping the vip becomes forbidden seems a bit awkward to me; as long as he can be reached it's fine with me; camping him is a tactic too, albeit a lame one, I agree with that. But every tactic has a weakness too and good teams will exploit it.
And turning a double loss in a win for TSR when time runs out... well I don't know but try using your imagination; They send a silence team somewhere in a tunnel in the Alps while the SAS (but also local police, im quite sure of that) moves in to protect the vip; time is on their side since I can't see much opportunity for TSR to move in real reinforcements (outside game time) so they'll end up outgunned and outnumbered by counter terrorists (after the double loss, outside game time).
So I won't treat a double loss as a win for TSR, but just as it is; a double loss.
Post edited by Diceman at 7/30/2002 9:09:15 AM

I still don't think any clan could successfully camp on Tunnel and protect the VIP from Geno.

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its not about any of that jarlaxle or diceman, its simply about taking a vote if we want a tactic removed from match play.

i shouldnt have bothered to post anything after my first post really, its a vote, i have no right ot tell someone what their opinion should be any more then they have t tell me what my opinion should be. whether it can be defended or not isnt the question. the question is whether the members of the forum here think its a tactic that should be included in match play, and if it is how the game is meant to be played.

so far i see 3 votes for no rule shange, and 8 votes yes to making the rule change. obviously this vote needs to go on for a week, so there is plenty of time for others to give their vote on it.

If you can't understand why this kind of lameness disgusts me then I really don't how to make you understand. It is exactly this kind of crap that making OTC members pull out of TWL. We went from 3 squads with a possible fourth to the point were we are going to withdraw all 3 and try to put together 1 team to play on TWL. I am not going to go through the various instances that lead my clan mates to wash their hands of TWL but things like this doesn't help the ladder.

What are we playing for? Cash? Cars? Supermodels? NO, we are playing for the fun and the competition. When you remove these things, then there is no reason to play and put up with the BS. This a video game after all, it is not real life. This game can not afford to drive players or teams away, we all know there no more official interest in this game.

I didn't say I was against a rules change, but I'm just having my doubts about the issue (see my previous post) of creating a new rule for a tactic; I think rules concerning glitches and bugs are more important right now.
However, this doesn't mean I don't think it's important so explain a bit of how you would see this change Morgan; How would you prove it, when would you report it (eg 2 min camping vs 10 min camping) etc

maybe your not understanding me dice, ill try and explain it clearer..

it has nothing to do with camping a map, or anything like that, or telling a team how to play. its simple really. if you dont rescue the VIP on tunnels when your team is on the SAS/VIP side, you lose and the sqaud playing as TSR wins. It doesnt matter if the VIP lives or not, you didnt rescue him, so the other team isnt going to be punished by your not attempting to complete, or being able to complete the objectives.

plain and simple..

I fail to see this as a problem at the moment. So far there has been only 1 documented case of any clan using this lame tactic, and after this fallout, I highly doubt they would use it again. If this were happening everytime someone played Tunnel, then perhaps we should do something about it. However I would just hope everyone decides to actually try and win maps instead of tie them.

Please correct me if this has happened more than once. Also, Beowulf, why don't you list the reasons OTC is going from 3 clans to 1? I'd like to know (besides possibly losing) why they would leave.

TWL Global Operations Ladder Administrator

I say leave it as is....more follows if you have the time and inclination to read it:

1) I personally have no respect for this "camping" tactic, but I think it should be allowed. It's cheap, but legal. If they defend successfully I'll say "great win", and then I'll laugh at them for being cowards. In real life I'll do everything and anything to protect a VIP and keep my guys alive. THIS IS A GAME....play to have fun, not merely to win a map or get a high kill count.

2) Passing rules on everything will get confusing and annoying in a hurry. Who's to say when they're "camping" and when they're holding back the VIP until the tunnel is clear?

3) Oh, and if clans want to camp against KC we'll keep forming up 6 and rushing until the VIP is dead. All you'll here is the "tink-tink-tink" of rolling grenades, the "thunk" of M203s, and the occassional "whoosh" of a LAW. I promise we'll get him eventually....

4) It's sad we're having this discussion.

That's it- later all.....Foxhound

I agree with Foxhound of course. I really don't see this as a tactic that would ever work except against the worst of teams. I'm not calling your team bad, you didn't realize what they were doing for a while as you sat back waiting for them to try and rescue the VIP.

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Originally posted by: [Geno]Jarlaxle

Also, Beowulf, why don't you list the reasons OTC is going from 3 clans to 1? I'd like to know (besides possibly losing) why they would leave.

Thanks, I'd say this one quote (from an admin) sums up many of our members feelings about this ladder and how it is managed. What a childish attempt at a (not so) subtle insult.

Winning or losing a game means nothing, I don't lose any sleep or go kick my dog because we lost a match. We joined this to have fun, we had no expectations going in, we have jobs and families that come first. We loved to play GO and thought that playing on the ladder would be a further extension of that. But, unfortunately, it has not been due to "situations" that have arose in match. The membership has voted with their feet, so to speak.

I am not going to "list the reasons" why they are fed up, it no longer matters what the specifics are, the decision has been made.

PS: The only "game" I take seriously is ice hockey, but I spend a lot money to play that (even at my acceralated age). Look for me on the ice, I'm the guy in "sin bin" for roughing or cross-checking.

I wasn't trying to insult your team, I was just trying to understand why they quit. Losing oftentimes means not having fun, so I listed that as a possible reason. I know if I were losing all the time I wouldn't be having as much fun. I want to hear some of the reasons so I know what may be wrong that's all. What types of in-match things happened? I don't recall ever seeing OTC say a word about anything.

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i dont disagree jarl, and i think if we knew from the get-go about it, it wouldnt have worked on us either.

this kind of behaivor, if allowed, will just entice more "looking into" the maps for any possible lame tactic, some of which im sure would be more effective. That is what i am hoping a rule on this would give a sign to just say no about.

fox, you, like dice misconstrue my rule change..

you wouldnt need a ruling about anything, play the map how you wish, just try and rescue the vip. if you cant get it done in 10 minutes, you lose. i dont see where any confusion over that comes from. if you cant rescue him in 10 minutes, you lose as SAS/VIP team. if playing as TSR, if they dont rescue him in 10 minutes, you win.

the thing i dont understand is, this rule change wouldnt affect GENO, or KC, they are both "in your face" teams. they wouldnt resort to a tactic that wasnt "in your face" if they didnt feel comfortable playing on a map as a certain side. i wouldnt ever expect this from a geno squad, as they dont strike me as a team that looks for loopholes to exploit.

bottom line, if they idea of the league is going to be to take advantage of the games many flaws and definite lack of future support to get wins, instead of just pitting 2 teams against each other and finding out which the better one is, it wont be a league i will be involved in.

You're right, a 10-minute time limit would remove the need for a ruling. A rule change is still unneccessary, if only because I welcome teams to hide their VIP by the fans....it makes it easier to find him and kill him. Speed, movement, darkness, and multiple approaches is the only thing that can save the VIP on that map. If we ever find a truly lopsided and unplayable loophole I'll support a rule change 100%. I do understand your frustration though CAPT, it's too bad more teams aren't "noble"....

what is the point of playing the map if you dont wish to play it to complete all your objectives?

Let's see if this happens again. Something tells me this problem won't be happening anytime soon. Generally all teams should be trying to complete the objectives, so let's leave it at that until we find another example, and then we can stop it before it gets out of hand.

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Morgan, sorry about the misunderstandings, but I wanted to let you know that's because I don't speak English as my native language and usually I understand everything quite easily, during this discussion there were several times I had to reread to see what people actually ment.
However, I agree with you that the game is not ment to be played that way and teams using that tactic will get soundly beaten by even a remotly good team.
But it's good to see there are people like you who want to play the game in its true spirit.
Perhaps my team, fox, and yours (if you're in a clan) could arrange to a friendly match outside the ladder?

diceman, if you have IRC come to #ODA or #ELD and look for one of the ODA members if you want to arrange a scrim or anything, on to the voting part, capt has my vote.

Beo is too kind to go into details about OTC pulling out of TWL. I'm not as diplomatic:

Just about every match that OTC entered into resulted in someone bitching about something. The level of maturity is absurd (even so far as Admins cursing on the forums, which should be example enough) and makes playing the game an extremely miserable experiance. The complete lack of guidence from the powers that be, only add to the confusion and the excuse that its up to the players to make rules does nothing when the mentality of the player base is selfish in nature. Thats not OTC's philosophy and hence have realized that this ladder is not what we want from the game.
We are forming a small invite only tourney, and plan on inviting those groups that realize fair gaming and general respect for the other team can actually *add* to the fun of it all.
This is not to say we think all the squads in TWL are moronic....far from it, all we are saying (or not saying aloud, actually...except for me) is that we want no part of this nonesence anymore since the general attitude 'seems' to be quite contrary to what we want out of a game. And thats just my own wording, OTC shouldn't be flamed for it (though it would only prove my point even further).

When I first became a TWL admin I was told in no uncertain terms that the player base is who makes up the rules and decides most everything. I believe the concept of TWL is to allow the players to do whatever they want. You could decide your next match with a game of checkers if you want. Yes, there are many young kids playing this game so there is a lot of immaturity...big deal. You have to learn to live with this kind of thing. Swearing is no big deal either, you can choose to ignore it. I still don't recall hearing anything about bitching in an OTC match. I really wish people would stop bitching about things in their matches and just play the damn game. I'm sure this happens in most games/ladders, I can't imagine you can get away from it. OTC clearly wants a more tight handed ladder where people are forced to do things your way. This can be compared to the government. Some people just want more government involvement (OTC), while others just want to live for fun without worrying about all the bullshit. This can also be compared to the recent lap dance law passed in Clark County near las vegas. How dare some councilwoman interfere with my right to have some stripper undulate on my lap?!

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Well our one match against OTC was fun and went quite well (besides the server crashes).