Fuel Tanks -New Rule

This applies to TA,TD,DD ladders.

You can not use fuel tanks or any other means to destroy your own mech taking advantage of a bug in the scoring system. Doing the above will register a suicide but no loss of points. Doing this when your mech is critical to get a fresh mech is a blatant abuse of a bug in the game. I don't want to make rules about little stuff like this because the rules cover this in a broad sense when it talks about using bugs to your advantage. Not allowing the enemy to score points on your critical mech in this way can not be considered anything less then a cheat. After all your cheating your opponent of the points.

This is also very easy to find as you will see no downward spike in the zonestats graph indicating you lost points. And a suicide will be registered as well.

Lets not lose the integrity of the league at this point in the road. Sportsmanship is key to keeping things fun around here.


Lead MW4 Ladder Admin
Sharpe

ICQ#2455970
AIM#Sharpe22BT
Sharpe@teamwarfare.com

I have to agree Sharpe, but how will you measure the intent?
I have run into fuel tanks or missile sites many times while fighting the opponet, especially in a Thanny or Thor.

It must be the intent that matters, and how do you judge anyones intent from the zone stats.

I find it best to just blow the damn things up from the start.

People better just avoid them or blow them up to avoid any accusations. I have already seen teams using this bug a few times. I should not have to say anything about it at all everyone knows it's a bogus thing to do. I hope I am not going to have to make rules about every little thing like some other leagues have done. I would rather retire than do that.

Lead MW4 Ladder Admin
Sharpe

ICQ#2455970
AIM#Sharpe22BT
Sharpe@teamwarfare.com

How about this ... any time a suicide is recorded with no dip in points it is an automatic +500 to the opposing teams score at the end of the match. Fair is fair no matter how you slice it when you die you should either be giving up 1500 or 500 points to the enemy.

Lead MW4 Ladder Admin
Sharpe

ICQ#2455970
AIM#Sharpe22BT
Sharpe@teamwarfare.com

I would have to agree with the against comments. It would be almost impossible to verify intent. I've hit those darn fuel tanks far too many times by accident while twisted and zoomed in shooting. Thats why I always try to blow them up as soon as I see them. Maybe if you had a series of screen shots of the guy running into the fuel tanks it were establish intent. My feeling is that if anyteam is so low as to do stuff such as this on purpose, upon verifiable proof - both zone stats and screenshots - that any team that does this be dropped to the bottom of the ladder.

I guess that was my point on the 1st thread. This should not even be an issue here. If your on a map with fuel tanks or the like, blow them up! I try and treat them like repair bays, if the other team can use them to their advantage get rid of them. None of the fuel tanks are deep in enemy territory, it takes a minimal amount of fire power to blow them up. If you decide to leave them alone and your opponent uses them to suicide I'll agree, very poor form on their part, but shame on you for letting it happen. I like to use them as a weapon myself. Sort of like killing 2 birds with 1 stone if you will. Blow up the tanks and casue the enemy to overheat.

This should not even be a topic of discussion. Play smart on either side and this is not a real issue.

I think a good measure of intent is when for instance; an enemy mech is crit, then moments later is fresh without a notice on the game log of a death or suicide. Its hard to argue that you accidentally got a fresh mech in that case.

Û§ûl

ive bumoed into those huge fuel taks when im flying 200 meters in the air with my cougar, getting shot at and cant turn in time to fall ontop of them then get destroyed by fuel. I think along with alot of other post here that it shouldn't be a rule because in the spirit of the game, nobody in a league match would sink that low. I can see why you would bring it up, but it would just cause more problems than it would fix. 400 meters in the air out of jump fuel getting shot in center by snipers with fuel below your feet, or critical and trying to run for cover by a building in torso twist and just bumping into a group, then arguing over it just doesnt seem fair.

basically: cause more probs than fix and nobody will sink that low that i know of. TKOTH good!!

Intent? What does intent matter? If the makers of the game intended for someone to use the tanks in such a manner we would have known about it. This is a bug no less a cheat as sitting in a building where you can fire out of (through the walls) but not into it.

Now as far as I can see there are 2 kinds of suicides this falls under. Maybe someone can varify more on these.

1. While attacking another critical mech you destroy it splashing yourself into a suicide. You are not minused points for this on either zonestats or in the final game score. This is not exploiting a bug but rather kind of a luck thing since you don't know who is going to die. (for the most part) In my opinion the opposing team should be granted +500 points because that mech would have been destroyed almost certainly.

2. Running into (shooting) fuel tanks to get a fresh mech. This shows up in the zonestats as a -1500 points but and this is the important part of the problem for TA it does not show up at the end of the in game score. Since we use the in game scores to determine the winner this presents a problem. In the case of this happening the winning score will revert to the zonestats instead of the in game score.

As for intent ... if you run into a tank on accident you don't deserve to be docked points? comon guys you need to be aware of the terrain. I have accidently run into tanks 2x in the entire time I have played this game and it was my own damn fault.

3. Is there a way to run into the tanks so the suicides do not show up in the zonestats?

One other issue.
The triangle of BS.
Example: Sharpe Kills Lucid at the same time Lucid kills Winter. Sharpe is then given a TK even though Winter was 800 meters from Lucid. Does Lucid get credit for a kill +500 points at the same time? If not it balances out in the end. If he does adjustments should be made to the final score.

I don't know but matches are getting closer and closer around here. It's rediculous that we need to accept these screwups when both teams know its wrong.

Lead MW4 Ladder Admin
Sharpe

ICQ#2455970
AIM#Sharpe22BT
Sharpe@teamwarfare.com

Hehe I submit to you all that if your in a mech or any other vehicle running through the middle of a fuel depot you should be docked just for doing it. When is the last time you saw tanks fighting inside of a refinery? Choose another path Luke. It's like saying your playing a race car game and you miss a turn on accident and blowup into the wall. I am sure you can see what I mean.

If you want me to leave the rules as is I want each team Capt for DD,and TA to leave a note in here stateing that when someone repeatedly uses fuel tanks the ingame scores will still be used and not complained about.

I am on a roll! heh

Lead MW4 Ladder Admin
Sharpe

ICQ#2455970
AIM#Sharpe22BT
Sharpe@teamwarfare.com

I can appreciate your concern for fairness. In that vein why does the TWL allow the continued use of the MC MKII with JJ when the entire community is aware that the mech takes little or no damage when it should. Isn't that cheating your opponent of legitmate points and not losing points that you should? When I see a team take 4 MK II's as I did last week something is very wrong!!!!

Sharpe, I think a new rule would create more bull than it fixes. We know there are problems with zone stats, in the past we have always relied on the in game score and not the stats. Seems to me there is a post a few down about NOT using zone stats.

The game has all sorts of bugs, we learn to play with them, and we learn to compensate for them when possible. We all know that using a jumping MKII exploits a "bug". We understand the bug and play with it. That bug in my opinion is far worse than the fuel tank bug. At least I can fix the fuel tank bug by eliminating the problem during the game.

If you start going back to zone stats becasue the games are getting closer I think your asking for more conflicts not less. You will have guys going over the zone stats for problems if the game is close.

I would say we live with the in game score as we always have and leave it at that. Everyone knows as soon as the game is over who won and who lost. While your in game you can tell where you stand, which in close games becaomes very important for the last few miutes.

How would you feel if your team appeared to be behind by 1000 points with 2 minutes remaing. You form up and make a well planned assault to take the lead with 5 seconds left, and when the game ends you see your plan has paid off and your team wins by 500 points. But you go back to zone stats, and by some quirk or "bug" you find you really had the lead with those 2 minutes remaining, and the final assault, because of some quirk or "bug" ended up costing you the game.

The problem is you can only judge whats happening in game by using the in game score. You base your strategy in game on that score and work accordingly. To use anything other than the in game and end of game score that is displayed takes away from the true nature of the game.


Post edited by LucidLizard at 5/22/2002 4:58:36 PM

I just tested these this morning with RG Wow. This first test was done using a bot to get me crit then I ran through the tanks or shot them when I was next to them. Notice how I won at the end of the in game score.

Pic at the end of the game.
http://www.sovereigndynasty.com/cheat.html

Zonestats beg to differ though.
http://stats2.zone.com/games/att/64/130/84/9/1234567/1022086311234/

Here we see that a suicide was registered from splash damage but no points are deducted in game or on zonestats. Wow can verify those results if you wish because I did not make an end of game screen of that one.

http://stats2.zone.com/games/att/64/130/84/9/1234567/1022044633873/

Hope this helps.


Lead MW4 Ladder Admin
Sharpe

ICQ#2455970
AIM#Sharpe22BT
Sharpe@teamwarfare.com

I disagree it's easy to catch as I have just shown. You can not always see that people 800 meters behind the front line are running through tanks. Again if someone runs through the tanks they are denying you 500 points IN GAME SCORING. Now after the match when you see the scores don't match up and they have a bunch of suicides I will just direct whoever to this thread. As long as it is not on my head I am happy about it. No doubt there will be teams "accidently" hitting the tanks during a critical match but it will be too late to change it after the fact.

Lead MW4 Ladder Admin
Sharpe

ICQ#2455970
AIM#Sharpe22BT
Sharpe@teamwarfare.com

That does not matter Arch.
Lead MW4 Ladder Admin
Sharpe

ICQ#2455970
AIM#Sharpe22BT
Sharpe@teamwarfare.com

Lol you bastage Zonestats on that comin up. hehe

Lead MW4 Ladder Admin
Sharpe

ICQ#2455970
AIM#Sharpe22BT
Sharpe@teamwarfare.com

Archchaos: I have ICQ #1918240 Nya nya nya

Sportsmanship and Cheating

Un-sportsmanlike conduct during matches will not be tolerated by the TWL. If an admin is called in to resolve an issue regarding un-sportsmanlike conduct the judgment/punishment will be swift, efficient and final.

This should cover this deal as well as all the other known bugs/cheats for the game.

However if we are to start using the zonestats in order to prove or deny use of this bug, shouldn't the old rule of all team members having to have stats reporting on be reinstated.

I have seen many time that the zonestats page doesn't exactly jive with what I know happenend during a battle but for the most part it is right on. I always get printouts of the stats page after a match for my own review (always learinging ) And to sum it up... there seems to always be at least one person on the opposite team that does not have stats reporting turned on.
I know that before the rules were updated this was a fairly big thing in that a team that did not have stats reporting turned on could basically expect to get the short end of the stick in any dispute.

If a team can be proven to be exploiting this or any bug, they should be dealt with. But on the same lines... this particular bug could be hard to prove and get very confusing and the same ppl who are now using it will be the one's crying foul and trying to prove the other team of wrong doing anytime a person experiences a "legitimit Suicide"

Crâsh
« Echo Squadron »

Damn.... I need a speel chucker on this thing

A legit suicide will yield -1500. Stats reporting is required to be on at all times on the server and clients. And if you don't use it yes you will get the short end of the stick. The whole reason I am bring this thread up is despite the "sportmanship" rule this is confirmed to be going on by several teams. I would say great go make a screenshot for proof but how are you going to do that or even know that it is happening when the game does not give you a report on the screen that someone has suicided.

Here is what I see happening if we do not do something about this now. Teams that don't use it will see a fresh mech when there should not be one even if it is from a splash suicide. Then they will go and do the tanks themselves to even it up and we will have a mess to deal with. I think the graph and score is a pretty obvious indicator that someone did something wrong. Why are people opposed to this?

Lead MW4 Ladder Admin
Sharpe

ICQ#2455970
AIM#Sharpe22BT
Sharpe@teamwarfare.com

us turkeys happily play the game and we have NEVER had a problem with a jump bug- oil tank kills or any other "bug, hack, cheat, point stealing, building invaunerability (i think i posted a thread on this and you said no rule) o any other possible rule that i can even THINK might exist. the only problem we have ever had was with either lag or other team not setting server right.

that said, just like lucid, blow the damn thinks up at the begining or blow em before other team runs into them (they get very close and u blow it and if they survive, theres yer Trap.). and how can we enforce this anyway? ive been in 1 game where zonestats had other team +40 kills per player (this was in a pub). if you really think there should be a rule how about a vote? i think the outcome will show you we dont care/use/enforce/notice/like any rule that in the long run, IMO will just cause more and more problems then we would like

last time i saw somebody purposly exploiting a bug: burned military storage building in an OA server long long ago; i do not think any pilots who ever dare to sighn up for league play need to use a bug. sportsmanship is enough of a rule.

Despite what is being said here it is being used and that is my point. If we choose to ignore it and go on the same way thats fine but lets not pretend it is not happening because I already KNOW some of the Teams/People that have used it. Again zonestats can be screwed up a lot but it is not screwed up as far as displaying -points for actual suicides. If you run through a tank it will show that -1500 points you deserve on the zonestats + the suicide. What is so hard to prove about that?

Lead MW4 Ladder Admin
Sharpe

ICQ#2455970
AIM#Sharpe22BT
Sharpe@teamwarfare.com

The MKII thing is not as bad by far. I can core a Jumpping MKII just like any other skilled pilot. The jumpping bug is part of all mechs but it is not impossible to overcome where as this other thing is a different story.

Lead MW4 Ladder Admin
Sharpe

ICQ#2455970
AIM#Sharpe22BT
Sharpe@teamwarfare.com

Man, who started this mess Sharpe?

I personally saw it done as well as reports from other people where the zonestats verify it.

Lead MW4 Ladder Admin
Sharpe

ICQ#2455970
AIM#Sharpe22BT
Sharpe@teamwarfare.com

Trying to "police" this will become a logistical nightmare. There is a far simpler solution, require teams to blow the tanks. If they fail to do so take a picture and have them forfeit the map. I think most tanks are visible when you spawn. Have them do it right off the bat before they ever move. Problem solved without all the tracking and accusations.

With the exception of Sentinel Dawn that is. Alot of the water on that map has fuel tank/mines in them.

Sar's suggestion was what I was planning. From this point forward I will be blowing up all gas tanks I see ASAP and taking a screenshot. Then it's all good

Just play NS13 or any team I'm in! I love blowing them things up the first ones i See them, that way, no one can use them! I actually take them down first, even if I see a mech already in my sights! I just love how they explode...

Taking jump jets off the mark 2 is a bad idea and doesn't solve anything a skilled pilot couldn't handle. Only times I haven't been able to core a flying moose is when a buddy of mine called Seto uses em.

The moment you restrict what components are on a mech you start cramping players styles. Everyone used to talk about the same thing when the laser bug and the 1.5 patch were out and Nova Cats were unstoppable. But ya know what, out comes 2.0 to fix the laserbug and Nova's still dominate a match. Meaning that skilled players who like certain configs can bring out the best in that particular mech.

Û§ûl

OK, here is my last effort to convince everyone that using anything other than the in game score is a huge mistake.

This is a game, and like any other game the real time feedback you receive is what makes it exciting.

Lets draw an analogy to basketball.

Sharpe, you and I are each coaching a team, the game starts and our 5 guys dribble around taking shots, some from in close and some from 3 point range. Some of them score points and others don’t, but the score is constantly visible to both of us. We adjust our offensive and defensive strategy according to the score. Time runs out and the scoreboard shows your team to be victorious, nice job.

But wait, now the officials start reviewing the tape of the game. Every time a player who scored carried the ball on his way to the basket (we know that never happens in pro basketball) they deduct the points from the total. Every time a player missed a shot and was fouled, but no foul was called they added the points to the total. I could add countless more examples of how the score could change.

My point is simple.
Take away the real time scoring and rely on something that can only be reviewed after the game and you take away the excitement and intensity that keeps us all playing the game.

The only score that maters is the real time score visible during the game and at the games end….period.


Post edited by LucidLizard at 5/23/2002 11:19:50 AM

You know if its really going to be this big of a controversy we can simply ban players for a certain number of mathces if a screen shot can be given with the player running into a fuel tank. The best thing would be for everyone just not to use this bug. I think something has to be done about exploiting the bug and until someone has a better "solution" sharpes idea is the best one. Who wants to go to extremes and force people not to play the game because they used a bug...but then again if that was the rule and they knew that they might get banned maybe they wouldn't do it...lol. I don't really know what to say honestly but the problem isn't with the game its with the people who look to exploit its short comings. Call it lack of skill call it lack of concience whatever it is this rule won't be enforced unless someone does something they shouldn't. Don't run into a fuel tank and this rule doesn't matter. Pretty simple really
TWL TA Admin
VISHNU

Zone- CSS_SK_VISHNU
VISHNU@teamwarfare.com
ICQ 99876732

Originally posted by: ArchChaos
Yes, I can core the MK2 with the best of them, but don't try to sell me off on your skill when your driving them and using it to kill peasants.

By your own logic you're making my point for me, you admit that anyone can core a jumping MK2 on a regular basis. I didn't know that about the cougar though, maybe SLAM should ban JJ on the cougar as well

I don't drive jumpers and I certainly don't drive assaults. I don't mean it to sound like a bad thing, they are just too slow for my taste. I think people should be able to drive whatever tickles their pickle without big brothers' take on what's an acceptable config. Sucks to take options off the table from an already narrow game menu.

Moreover, I have never tried to shoot the little dude running around on palace gates...Generally speaking I'm more interested in shooting enemy mechs rather than unarmed civilians.

Originally posted by: ArchChaos
Many of the higher ranking teams on TWL don't use MK2s for obvious reasons, or at least I have seen it rarely.

I think the obvious reason is that twl assigns a default weight of 70 tons/player. With some simple math you can see that its hard to take a MK2 unless someone takes a scat or a cougar. So usually you will see it only 1nce per drop. But if a team chooses to take an assault, it will almost always be a MK2.

In other leagues where there is no uniform weight restriction people almost always take MK2's as their assaults as well. Lets face it, its a better mech than a daishi, atlas or a sunder for that matter.

Originally posted by: ArchChaos
What you guys are seeing is a frustrated ladder admin who is a little bit shocked at what he has to deal with only because people have started to complain.

IMO we are seeing a ladder admin that is fed up with people exploiting bugs in the game. Its like it was mentioned before, games now are very close. Some being decided by 1000 points or less. To have some asshole get a fresh mech for free by blowing himself up on a gantry leaves a sour taste in my mouth too.

Originally posted by: VISHNU

Call it lack of skill call it lack of concience whatever it is this rule won't be enforced unless someone does something they shouldn't. Don't run into a fuel tank and this rule doesn't matter. Pretty simple really

Amen to that Vishnu...

Û§ûl

Originally posted by: ArchChaos
Yes, I can core the MK2 with the best of them, but don't try to sell me off on your skill when your driving them and using it to kill peasants.

Its like this, you want to impress me, take an honest to god Mek that isn't an assault and show me what you can do with it...

What an ego maniac .... hehehe
Let me quote another famous American icon....
"I hope I don't let him down" - Forrest Gump

Crâsh
« Echo Squadron »

About the fuel tanks, I don't think any rule you make about them can be enforced on Sentinal Dawn because many of the fuel tanks are under water. I've never been killed by a fuel tank except on that map (I thought their only use was against stupid bots ;-). Personally I pop them whenever I see them, they make a pretty boom.

The jump bug will hopefully be fixed by patch 3, which will hopefully be out right behind/with the IS Mech Pack in just a few days. Who knows, maybe they'll clear up the scoring issues as well?

Ramses II

This is not a knock on X but if you take a look at the X vs SI match on my sight you will see 5 MKII(X) vs 5 Sunders(SI). It was probably one of the very few TA matches where the full +30 was given. I must say it was quite a fight too but that is beside the point. I am not frustrated at all Arch I would appreciate you not speculating on my intent for doing things it only gets into a pissing match.

Now the reason for this whole thread was to stop people from exploiting a bug in the game. I had no need before these past couple weeks of complaints to address this so I never did. Quite honestly if you all want to keep running into tanks I can care less we can add it to the rules as a "tactic" as some of you call it. What I won't do is pretend this is not a bug and is not covered under the sportsmanship rule.

This is not like a basketball game or any other game. If it were this would be a better analogy. Your tie score 10-10, 5 minutes left in the game. You go for an easy layup and find Rodman goaltending. Each time you go for your shot Rodman blocks it and you score no points. The funny part is Rodman is slaming it into your face and the refs are not calling it because they don't see it. Too bad they did not call the foul those were easy points you had but were taken away by a cheating Rodman.

Along those lines people think tanks should be left so a gimped mech can use them. Well hulling a mech is also unsportsmanlike and you will find rules about it in every other league that has multiple live games. I should hope the teams here can step up and win or lose on skill not cheats and lame sportsmanship.
Lead MW4 Ladder Admin
Sharpe

ICQ#2455970
AIM#Sharpe22BT
Sharpe@teamwarfare.com

ok so say this does become a rule, can we use GAs to ignore it? id rather fight n have fun and lose then get into all this mess.
just blow the damn things up or its your own stupid fault. and who caused this whole mess anyway? ive never seen a team on twl do it before.
Post edited by Trap¥ at 5/23/2002 3:58:26 PM

{RT}Trap¥ Rabid Turkeys flame broiled smileys inc.

Sorry bout' that Sharpe. I'm entirely too passionate about things like this... I'm signing off on this topic.
Post edited by ArchChaos at 5/23/2002 4:10:30 PM

If you really want to get to the meat of it this is a rule already Trap. You can not exploit a bug in the game it is considered unsportsmanlike or cheating. So when such a claim is made an admin will look at the zonestats because that is what we use to determine the validity of a claim if and when we can. Zonestats will show that it was done very clearly. I never said all games are going to use the zonestats for the final scores. What I did say was that we will go to zonestats if there is a claim that tanks were being used. This is the same process that has always been used in the past for checking claims of misdeeds. That being said I urge everyone to make a screenshot of the final score in game as a comparison for zonestats.

One last thing about all this talk on MKIIs. You all have an = opportunity to use an MKII in this league. If the other team chooses to use one it is upto you whether or not you would like to match it. Personally give me an extra Nova over an MKII anyday. Many times in 2v2 my partner and I have taken a BK and Nova over an MKII and Daishi and dominated them. You just need to know where to hit them and they fall just like any other mech.

Lead MW4 Ladder Admin
Sharpe

ICQ#2455970
AIM#Sharpe22BT
Sharpe@teamwarfare.com

BTW you can GA anything you want. If both teams want to run through tanks, shoot through buildings or use any other bug and they agree to it God bless. Just make a screenshot of the agreement so you have backup if they later change their minds.

Lead MW4 Ladder Admin
Sharpe

ICQ#2455970
AIM#Sharpe22BT
Sharpe@teamwarfare.com