JK2 PATCH

To whom it may concern, namely the skilled Jedi Outcast clans: Valar,TF,Pds,dev,dsbr,jag,irn,scs.

DO NOT Update to this patch, not even on your servers. It completely hampers any competive play with guns and force.

TWL Admins: I hope you realize what this patch has done to the game. You can read more comments here http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51158

Sorry but that post is nothing more than whining. I'll address each of the concerns posted in that thread. First off as for ammo. The reeapter secondary fire kills in 3 hits and pushing back every hit is not possible at medium to close range. With the patch people will now have to aim and make their shots count. No more spamming energy grenades around. Same thing with the golan fc, no more spamming mines, though I hope that its not to the same degree as the repeater, becasue the mines can be dodged since they only explod on person impact.

Second point, the saber. I bet you havent used it in the new patch. First the touch damage has been reduced. So a saberist will likely not kill somone by running and touching. Second, hits at the beginning and end of swings dont do full damage. Having just played about 30 rounds of saber only games with the new patch, i can tell you that the average damage done now ranges between 15 and 30, even for heavy stance. Its difficult to get a swing that does full damage. If anything guenrs now have a huge advantage over saberist because they can back away and take reduced damage as the saberist has a low chance of hitting for full damage. Also note they cant block as they swing so by backing up and firing your porbably now getting in more damage overall than the lightsaber user even if you get hit.

As for the force, heal and drain were both overpowered. Heal I havent seen in action. Drain however even with the patch is still overpowered due to the huge range it has at level 3.

Overall the only relevant point in that argument is healing. Though I bet it is fairer now than before. Overall this patch will separate the skilled from the novices as it takes much more work to kill someone with the more powerful weapons.

Are you an idiot dude? JO is NOT SABERS ONLY, get it? They fucked up the game for those of us who ENJOY THE GUNS so that they could accommodate newbies like yourself who think they are real jedi. Anyone who is anyone knows what I'm talking about - those people out there who bow before fighting someone, or they turn off their saber and do that walking bullshit, CUZ YOU'RE A REAL JEDI DUDE!!! You don't like force? Don't play it. You don't like guns? Don't play them. YOU are the one who is whining, because you don't have a dual lightsaber, or you can't play Kick Wars with your newbie friends, or you just lack the ability to dodge shots because you can't force push them all. Do us a favor, shut up about the saber, because it's THE GUNS THAT WERE AFFECTED the most, whether you realize it or not. Go play in your duels and do your bowing crap, while the rest of us try to figure out how to fix this game.

As for TWL, I can tell you, the competitive clans, the really good ones, won't be updating their servers - if that means they have to quit TWL, then so be it. The point of a game is to have fun - if we're not having fun playing it, then we just aren't going to do so. We'll revert back to 1.02c and create our own ladders or leagues or whatever it takes, just not this bullshit.

I'm with Knight on this one. Damn the man.

AMEN.

I'm astonished by the number of people who get upset by dying from guns on a gun server.

FFS. Somebody slap Raven upside the head. Well actually guess what guys, us elite ff gunners are outnumbered. Statistics reports that the majority of the players are fresh-outta-the-box newbs. Never played a game of jk1 in their life. So these sabers are mystical weapons they can use to defeat other powerful jedi masters. They believe if they fuck over guns players no big deal it will up their status with the Sabers players. Well hot damn they are right. But they overlooked something. As in most games, the hardcore gunners are the single group of gamers in jk2 that will stick around longer than a year. Yes their will be some saberists lurking around, but the true hardcore players remain to be the gunners and clanners.. The ones that make up the remaining community. If they truly cared about the dedicated community they wouldn't have made this update. But they don't care, it's all about the sales. Actually if they cared about sales, they would have made piracy protection. Well i'm assuming the majority of the people playing this game have warez versions. Which puts people like me, a patron of this game, at a dis advantage. I'm out $50 because some fuckface wanted to please the saberists, forcing me to quit this game. But why please the saberists and give away this game for free you ask? get them hooked on the whole jedi fantasy shit so they can plug the up and coming Attack of the Clones Film. Which they don't need to, the shit sells itself. So as for this patch, Raven, honey, baby, look you want to make us happy? I mean you truly want to make us all happy? Then add some more fucking ammo to the maps or increase the amount of ammo per unit. This will make up for the lack of power in each shot, and please the saberists because our shots are still weak as fuck. But at least we have some reason to play the game. it will just be like in TFC where you got a rocket launcher and 50 rockets. Aight, don't respond negatively to my post, I don't give a fuck about yall. Peace..

DSbr-AtomicZyr
DarkSaber #1 NF/FF TDM JK2
(to clear it up for all you first time jk2ers about to call me a newb)

"Are you an idiot dude? JO is NOT SABERS ONLY, get it? They fucked up the game for those of us who ENJOY THE GUNS so that they could accommodate newbies like yourself who think they are real jedi. Anyone who is anyone knows what I'm talking about - those people out there who bow before fighting someone, or they turn off their saber and do that walking bullshit, CUZ YOU'RE A REAL JEDI DUDE!!! You don't like force? Don't play it. You don't like guns? Don't play them. YOU are the one who is whining, because you don't have a dual lightsaber, or you can't play Kick Wars with your newbie friends, or you just lack the ability to dodge shots because you can't force push them all. Do us a favor, shut up about the saber, because it's THE GUNS THAT WERE AFFECTED the most, whether you realize it or not. Go play in your duels and do your bowing crap, while the rest of us try to figure out how to fix this game."

You dont seem to be comprehending what people with other opinions post. Since you apparently didn't read my post the first time I wont bother direct quoting. HEres the summary, both guns and sabers were altered. Guns will now take more skill to use because they will require good aim and conservation of ammo. People will also have to vary which guns they use as ammo will run out quickly if they try to spam either the repeater or the golan. Using guns is harder.

Yet at the same time using the saber against a gun is harder as well because the chances of doing full damage against a gun user with the new saber damage system has been lowered. It now requires not only an accurate swing but a well timed swing as well. Personally I feel guns will still have the advantage they did before the patch.

However both guns and the sabers have become harder to use, not just the guns and not just the sabers. IMO if your dropping out of competition due to the patch, you shouldnt be there in the first place. All the patch has done is increase the overall skill level required to play the game.

Yes by all acounts they've gone and made this game uncompetitive and HAVE SCREWED TEH POOCH.

I mean FFS WHY DO DEV COMPANIES ALTER GAMEPLAY NOWADAYS????

FIX THE BUGS and LEAVE GAMEPLAY ALONE.

I'm sure we can cope thx.

The patch is just very shoddily thought out, and has a number of un-announced changes.

The grip change to walking speed for example, I can't grasp in the slightest why they would change grip. Grip as it stands was the easiest force power to counter, with three definitive counters, push, pull and absorb, and then several other pseudo counters, like pre-emptive drain, shooting back, keeping your distance...

The ammo expenditure changes are crap as well, makes zero sense and cheapens CTF.

i agree with all the elite clans, of course

this patch seems to ruin the ctf play...altering grip is stupid and should probably be returned to normal asap

there are sabers only configurations on every game setting, including duel maps coming from every direction, my suggestion is to completely stop catering to sabers only, like its the only thing you put in the game

furthermore, TWL, you shouldnt REQUIRE servers to update to a stupid patch, if it doesnt even come with a linux version yet....because im running off a linux box, so that requirement has to wait i think for at least 2 days after they make it compliant with every type of server

anyway, sounds like raven needs to spend another 2 hours thinking how to make the patch....better

ive had enough of the sabers

Seems most people are not happy with this patch.
I've only just downloaded it, and am yet to test it out.
Should be interesting to see.
I'm not a big gun fan myself. I've always loved the whole idea of the lightsaber combat, it's what seperates JKII from the rest of the FPS genre. If your a big gun fan, maybe CS or Q3 will be a better place to game.
Actually, come to think of it, Raven's extremely original game developers have somehow managed to come up with an exact replica of Q3 and UT weaponary.
So really, JKII offers nothing new to the gun fans. Cept maybe force powers, but hey. It's not like they use them with any degree of finese or skill.
It's just more like. DRAIN, GRIP and LIGHTNING to finish you off.
Viola - I'm a hero.

____________________________________________________________________
"Listen but closely Brothers, for my life's breath is all but spent. There will be a time far from now when our chapter itself is dying, even as I am now dying, and our foes shall gather to destroy us. Then my children, I shall listen for your call in whatever realm of death holds me, and come I shall, no matter what the laws of life and death forbid. At the end I will be there. For the final battle. For the WOLFTIME"

This Game was Severly gayed to begin with... now from what I read it's even worse off... I guess im not suprised as more and more games come out... I am seeing a trend. That being almost no game caters to anyone but newbies(the masses that will play the game for 2 months then go on to something else) or they are just to stupid to realize how gay they are and that they arn't "luke Skywalker" who is a whiney peice of Sh!t anyways. From what I hear everything has been nerfed.. Just the opposite of what should have been done which is make speed 2x faster and add more ammo...along with faster rockets... less push/pull and 3x more force usage... oh and the ability to shoot guns and use force at the same time... hence grip someone while shooting them... I guess ppl are too dumb to be able to use multiple combinations such as
rage (absorb)/speed/forcejump/push/pull If there were 3x the force u could do all this. But lucas gayed it from the start and now its even worse... I guess I will be done with games if this isn't fixed as I have seen nothing diff from any other company out there. Take T2 for example how gayed is that? The CS 1.4... that is gay. Maybe I'll give quake 3 a shot or UT03. Or maybe raven will release the source code and we can get something going like the T2 community did with Base ++ and we can fix all ravens Fuk ups

btw Why the hell did they even bother making multiple gametypes? why didn't they just save some time and make JK2 saber only/duel only ? morons
Post edited by AssKicker at 5/7/2002 7:36:17 AM

Originally posted by: JaG|Fleury

Are you an idiot dude? JO is NOT SABERS ONLY, get it? They fucked up the game for those of us who ENJOY THE GUNS so that they could accommodate newbies like yourself who think they are real jedi. Anyone who is anyone knows what I'm talking about - those people out there who bow before fighting someone, or they turn off their saber and do that walking bullshit, CUZ YOU'RE A REAL JEDI DUDE!!! You don't like force? Don't play it. You don't like guns? Don't play them. YOU are the one who is whining, because you don't have a dual lightsaber, or you can't play Kick Wars with your newbie friends, or you just lack the ability to dodge shots because you can't force push them all. Do us a favor, shut up about the saber, because it's THE GUNS THAT WERE AFFECTED the most, whether you realize it or not. Go play in your duels and do your bowing crap, while the rest of us try to figure out how to fix this game.

As for TWL, I can tell you, the competitive clans, the really good ones, won't be updating their servers - if that means they have to quit TWL, then so be it. The point of a game is to have fun - if we're not having fun playing it, then we just aren't going to do so. We'll revert back to 1.02c and create our own ladders or leagues or whatever it takes, just not this bullshit.

Ok generally I wouldn't reply, but god damn, I got too..

Ok, what are the two key elements that make playing JK2, playing Jk2? The force, and Sabres. If we wanted a ton of guns, in ctf or duel, then we'd all go play death match or ctf in QUAKE. You ever seen a NF, CTF server, for a long period of time? The statistics of people using guns over using sabres, is totally unpreportioned. Basically people are playing Quake, with the option for a light sabre. The patch, leveled it. Required guns to use more ammo, and tweaked sabre damage. Now people can't just grab a Heavy Repeater and SPAM the ground with alternative fire for 5 minutes. If I wanted to be spamed to death by gun fire, I'd boot up Quake 3 and go play some deathmatch.

Now as for people thinking their "real Jedi", excuse me but where do you get off? In a duel server, with NF NG, its only sabres. Since its only sabres, its basic a sword duel. Now you may not know you're history but historically before such types of duels, it was POLITE and GENTLEMANLY to bow or shake hands before. A code of conduct, it falls under chivalry. The walking, thats just a neat thing. You can't tell me you saw Luke fight Vader in ROTJ and ESB and didn't like the parts where they just casually walked around then sprang into fighting suddenly. It adds suspense. Like an old style western shoot out at high noon. Which one will move first? Who will be the faster of the two? Its just part of the duel. Now if you go walking, in say, CTF then hey you're just wide open for a sabre through you're chest or a rocket upside the head.

And I agree, if people don't like Force, don't play it. I either play on servers with lower levels of Force allowed, or NF at all. Thats just a personal preference, as the powers are pretty cheap IMO in alot of ways. I remember the first week I played, I played ns streets alot. People would camp spawn points, and push you over the edge as you spawned. No way to defend aganist that really. Ever since then I been aganist Force powers and just about sabres and ctf. I think the sabres are finally tweaked. No more one-fucked up-shot kills. The ones where you can have 120+ health and 100 armor or more and take a heavy slash/jump attack and die...Glad to see that not done no more. The sabre lock ups were tweaked a little, they happen a little more often which is still, cool as hell to watch.

People who like guns, thats fine they have their purpose and place, shouldnt bitch about them. Sure you loved the extra ammo/lower cost before but when you're on the recieving end, being spamed by repeaters or whatnot isn't really fun. The extra cost, as said evens that out. Sabres do less damage, which evens them out as well. Drain is fixed, as was heal. Theres still a couple tweaks they could do to push/pull that I've seen but its better than what it was.

And hey, it fixed ALOT Of cheats. Thats always a +

People who like guns, thats fine they have their purpose and place, shouldnt bitch about them. Sure you loved the extra ammo/lower cost before but when you're on the recieving end, being spamed by repeaters or whatnot isn't really fun.

People who liked the ammo allotments WERE on the receiving end.

I am in total agreement with the idea of saber combat being a major element of the game. The problem I have with this patch is that it forced gun players to play to the saberist whim. Saberists had a myriad of servers to play on that catered to the saber only combat, and gun players had the mixed servers. Now all servers lean toward force and saber play. In high speed CTF guns are critical to play and the ammo changes have neutered that.

Raven never mentioned the gun changes, and it seems clear as to why. People who like the guns would have screamed to high heaven - as they are now.

The community has made room for saber players, and the patch has squeezed out the gun players.

We will see how this plays out, but for the time being we will stick to 1.02 for competition.

]CkB[Polaris
Teamwarfare Director of Operations

Mav... Does Quake 3 or any other shooter have force powers? Namely (speed/Jump)? thats what seperates FF Guns JK 2 from quake or any other FPS... if you don't like guns go play on a sabers only server...with ur other "luke skywalker" wanna be buddies oh sorry I have to spell it out... FF = Full force... but maybe u are right raven gayed the force powers to begin with anyways so Maybe we would be better off playing a diff FPS since outcast bites so much ass with this new patch ... not to mention the fact that this game is the easiet game ive ever played because of newbies running around bowing and trying to saber me in a Full force GUNS ENABLED SERVER.

BTW if u actually knew how to play the game you would pull my gun and saber my ass...This is very effective for saber ppl ... but they are too newbie to realize it. It's simple if you don't like guns Go play on a saber only server/duel sever...since u obviously can't figure out how to pull someones gun from them. Maybe it's best this game has been ruined since the competition is almost non existant like 99.9 percent of jk2's players are jackoff newbies that can't find thier own asses.... cept maybe with thier saber
Post edited by AssKicker at 5/7/2002 9:27:58 AM

Excuse me for being ignorant, but since I pretty much only play FF Sabers only deathmatch (not duel), what exactly are so many people bitching about? The things I noticed were:

1) drain is not as easy to use effectively
2) heal is useless
3) absorb doesn't make you glow blue now (yay)
4) red stance is much harder to use effectively
4) you actually have to hit someone with your saber while it is moving to do significant damage.

Overall, the tactics most new people use in Sabers DM/TDM have been limited, raising the bar a bit on skill/timing. From my standpoint, the game is much improved.

Isn't it true that you can create servers that host sabers only, and nf/ff? Then why do people who use sabers only play on servers where there are guns, and bitch about those who use guns? Some people mention that to use a gun is cheap, and go back to quake 3. What if I like this game? What if I prefer the secondary fire to the single firing in quake. What if I wanna be a storm trooper? This game came out of the box as a fun game, there is NO NEED to patch it in a way that would alter game play. As far as those who don't like people who use guns, GO TO A SABER ONLY SERVER!!!

GreenBeret.... The ammo usage for guns is so high... That it makes guns almost impossible to use. The ammo alotment was scarce to begin with... and now its even lower.

The only way I can see that this game will stay alive without the new patch is if we can control enough servers to keep the out of the box gameplay alive. Those who control the servers can control the patches... Not every saber loving newbie can host a dedicated Server. Clans are the ones who can put up the servers...etc... So the way I see it is...if we can convince ppl with servers to reject the new patch... The patch will be used by the minority... Tho i Doubt we could ever get enough ppl with servers to reject the new patch since this game is 99.9% noobs

Correct me if i'm wrong, but the main change to the guns just seems to be the alt-fire on the heavy repater and the flechette (sp?) gun use alot more ammo.

So far I love it :p.

And the sabers have been toned down a bit too (especially the hopping red stance DFA moves). Since the start+end of swings do much less damage now.

The light stance seems a little faster.

The medium stance can no longer do the spinning-top type twirls, and seems to handle a bit better at close range.

Between that and the adjustment of drain\heal to use more force power it all seems pretty good to me.


/me puts on flame retardent suit
--------------------------------------------------------------
Only the insane have strength enough to prosper
Only those who prosper can judge what is truely sane
--------------------------------------------------------------
crimsonfury@teamwarfare.com

SO what I seem to be hearing here is that the patch is good for the saber only ladders and bad for the saber and gun ladders?

OK. Easy solution. Saber only ladders get the patch. Combined ladders and gun only ladders don't. End of problem.

-LoS-Fyunch Click- SOUP-
Captain, -LoS- JK2 CTF Team; JK2 TDM Sabers Team
Member, -SoUP- T2 7Man Base CTF

I fully expect to be banned at any moment.

They should have left the gameplay alone. Repeaters, Golan Arms, and any other spam weapon is enough, dont need to change them. As for saberists being n00b's, Saberists believe gunnies to be skilless and weak. As for the Touch for the saber, they should have left ALL the weapons alone.
Golden Triad

Dark Jedi

God


Looks like TF left the Jk2 ladders just in time.

Raven seriously messed up on this patch.
The NF Guns portion of this game was already almost unplayable. Now with this patch it is completely unusable.

Good luck with this patch. I'll still be playing my NF Sabs 1v1.

Bleh, WTF was Raven thinking? Ammo was hard enough to come by in 1.02, but now you don't have enough ammo to finish off more then one skilled player even if you're fully loaded. That's retarded.

TDM and CTF are completely ruined and not worth playing.

OK.... I have sat back and listened to all the comments that everyone has been making and I was finally able to get some time in to draw my own conclussions. I can honeslty say that I was going into testing out the patch thinking I would not like, but I was suprised (not 100% impressed but surprised that it is not as bad as I anticipated).

Good points
They fixed the DFA and have limited Drain and Heal to a decent level. I also think the Absorb not glowing is a good change. As for the saber changes, I think that they are for the best. Matches have been mainly Red stance dominated and quick while this patch should extend gameplay a bit and make people utilize an assortment of stance styles per match.

Bad
I do not like the way they have nerfed Grip and the alternate fire of someof the guns. This is something we all should be able to adapt to seeing that the gun changes really only affect a few ALTERNATE fires (not all of the mechanics of the weapons).

I really think that a lot of the complaints are unjustifiable for the following reasons:

Raven has been getting input from various forums such as JediKnightII.net and some others. And from what I have read from the release of the game has been mainly from saberists and new people to the game genre. I rarely saw anyone posting that they liked drain, heal, grip, guns, red stance the way that they were. All the posts were dominated by people requesting changes in these areas (so what would you expect Raven to do?).

Honestly, I feel like it is a bit late to complain about what has already been done. I think that it is time to adapt to the current patch and more openly voice opinions for future patches (I know I sure will). I think that some changes will be in order for match play, but it will be near impossible to have some ladders on version 1.02 and others on 1.03.


Post edited by DregunFLy at 5/7/2002 12:43:17 PM


|SofD|DregunFLy
Sword of Damocles

Originally posted by: Polaris


The problem I have with this patch is that it forced gun players to play to the saberist whim. Saberists had a myriad of servers to play on that catered to the saber only combat, and gun players had the mixed servers. Now all servers lean toward force and saber play. In high speed CTF guns are critical to play and the ammo changes have neutered that.

Raven never mentioned the gun changes, and it seems clear as to why. People who like the guns would have screamed to high heaven - as they are now.

The community has made room for saber players, and the patch has squeezed out the gun players.

The patch has in NO WAY squeezed out the gun players. The only major changes to guns were that the alternate fire modes of the most powerful weapons were balanced. All these people screaming "OMG they nerfed gunners completely" need to learn to use more weapons as the only weapons changed were the repeater and golan fc. All the other guns are still the same. If as polaris stated, winning a high speed ctf match depended on nothing more than than spamming golan and repeater secondary fire(considering that he said gun changes when only the golan and repeater were changed), then high speed ctf must not have required much skill in the first place if it can be dominated by two weapons. Worse yet the weapons still do the same damage, but god forbid, you have to be RELATIVELY ACCURATE with them now rather than just spamming all over the place. Furthermore, on any level of play saber users have now become EASIER targets. Thanks to the new blocking (which I do like) lightsaber fights now take alot longer. This means that the chances of running into a group of people fighting with the saber while you have your gun is much more likely. And any skilled JK2 player will tell you its pretty easy, to take out a couple or even a group of saberists who are preoccupied in a fight when you have a weapon that does a large amount of damage.

Also interesting is that the same people complaining about the guns completely ignore the fact that saber attacks have also been reduced in effectiveness. With the new swing timing, hitting for full damage with the lightsaber is not a common event. Most hits now average somewhere between 15-30 damage. Even the heavy stance.

As far as guns and sabers, the changes have even things up, and in addition have made it so that both now require MORE skill to use. It's ridiculous that people cry, guns were made newbie friendly, becasue it was a lot easier to kill somone with the repeater and golan prior to the patch. Even more ridiculous are the "elite" from JK1. I played JK1 for over a year and half until I got tired of the cheats. JK1 was poorly balanced. The concussion rifle and super grips were in no way close to being balanced. Your in a severe state of denial if you think JK2 is less balanced than JK1.

The only thing totally out of whack with this patch was the change to grip. Anyone who has seen me play knows that I'm a huge hpb. Yet I can escape grip 95% of the time using push. The 5% where I dont escape is a result of getting ambush/surprised, And in that case I deserve whatever damage I take for getting surprised. SO grip changes are things I do disagree with.
Post edited by Wonderpalm! at 5/7/2002 1:46:11 PM

Originally posted by: Wonderpalm!

Originally posted by: Polaris


The problem I have with this patch is that it forced gun players to play to the saberist whim. Saberists had a myriad of servers to play on that catered to the saber only combat, and gun players had the mixed servers. Now all servers lean toward force and saber play. In high speed CTF guns are critical to play and the ammo changes have neutered that.

Raven never mentioned the gun changes, and it seems clear as to why. People who like the guns would have screamed to high heaven - as they are now.

The community has made room for saber players, and the patch has squeezed out the gun players.

The patch has in NO WAY squeezed out the gun players. The only major changes to guns were that the alternate fire modes of the most powerful weapons were balanced. All these people screaming "OMG they nerfed gunners completely" need to learn to use more weapons as the only weapons changed were the repeater and golan fc. All the other guns are still the same. If as polaris stated, winning a high speed ctf match depended on nothing more than than spamming golan and repeater secondary fire(considering that he said gun changes when only the golan and repeater were changed), then high speed ctf must not have required much skill in the first place if it can be dominated by two weapons. Worse yet the weapons still do the same damage, but god forbid, you have to be RELATIVELY ACCURATE with them now rather than just spamming all over the place. Furthermore, on any level of play saber users have now become EASIER targets. Thanks to the new blocking (which I do like) lightsaber fights now take alot longer. This means that the chances of running into a group of people fighting with the saber while you have your gun is much more likely. And any skilled JK2 player will tell you its pretty easy, to take out a couple or even a group of saberists who are preoccupied in a fight when you have a weapon that does a large amount of damage.

Also interesting is that the same people complaining about the guns completely ignore the fact that saber attacks have also been reduced in effectiveness. With the new swing timing, hitting for full damage with the lightsaber is not a common event. Most hits now average somewhere between 15-30 damage. Even the heavy stance.

As far as guns and sabers, the changes have even things up, and in addition have made it so that both now require MORE skill to use. It's ridiculous that people cry, guns were made newbie friendly, becasue it was a lot easier to kill somone with the repeater and golan prior to the patch. Even more ridiculous are the "elite" from JK1. I played JK1 for over a year and half until I got tired of the cheats. JK1 was poorly balanced. The concussion rifle and super grips were in no way close to being balanced. Your in a severe state of denial if you think JK2 is less balanced than JK1.

The only thing totally out of whack with this patch was the change to grip. Anyone who has seen me play knows that I'm a huge hpb. Yet I can escape grip 95% of the time using push. The 5% where I dont escape is a result of getting ambush/surprised, And in that case I deserve whatever damage I take for getting surprised. SO grip changes are things I do disagree with.

Something you don't realize, is that when facing an opponent that has a saber. The only effective weps aare repeater secondary and golan. Are you Saberists all idiots? You can't tell me in a gun/saber ffa that someone has actually killed you with a stormtrooper rifle on primary. Or a pistol(With you facing them not moving of course). The only weps that can kill someone with a saber are non-deflectable attacks. I.e. Repeater secondary, Golan secondary. I can't believe how stupid you people are sometimes.

Ps. Polaris, <3

Originally posted by: ZLaZ

Something you don't realize, is that when facing an opponent that has a saber. The only effective weps aare repeater secondary and golan. Are you Saberists all idiots? You can't tell me in a gun/saber ffa that someone has actually killed you with a stormtrooper rifle on primary. Or a pistol(With you facing them not moving of course). The only weps that can kill someone with a saber are non-deflectable attacks. I.e. Repeater secondary, Golan secondary. I can't believe how stupid you people are sometimes.


Ps. Polaris, <3

This just shows how much you dont know about the game. Outside of golan and repeater secondary fire you can use the Rocket Launcher, thermal detonators, demp, detonator packs, mines, and the disrupter. And yes in a gun and saber ffa I have killed people with all of those weapons. Thats not even including the ways that you can harm someone using the force. Next time think before posting something so silly. Also in regards to what I dislike about the patch, I forgot to include the saber throw in nf sabers, that is also screwed up.
Post edited by Wonderpalm! at 5/7/2002 2:27:43 PM

Demp = not in any ctf levels
dets/detpacks are pretty much all thats been left to any CTFer, especially in ff. disruptor? another last ditch weapon for chasing a flagger. This coming from me, who is pretty much a dedicated sniper for JO, i can snipe and hit a large % of my shots in the ctf levels, garrison 27d being the hardest since it ALWAYS turns into a clusterfuck, especially on pubs. oh, and disruptor is blocked by saber, didnt you realize that?

Rocket, Slow as crud, easily pushable. Therm dets, easily predictable because of 4 clicks, also easily pushable(and since you have to charge up for range, you can push all of them). DEMP, utterly useless for anything but taking shields down. The rate you can take the hp down is horrible and ammo consumption is terrible for charge up.
Det packs. Unless it's in a small corrider, you can jump right over them, no damage done. And if it's a small corrider, you can saber throw them.
Mines. One saber throw will blow it up.
Distruptor. Saber blocks all primary shots. you have to stand still charging up and you can just dodge or force see.
The only guns that can effectivly take someone with a saber down is The old repeater and flak gun.

Edit: How about you thinking before posting.
Post edited by ZLaZ at 5/7/2002 2:38:36 PM

Ragnar Wrote: "it's what seperates JKII from the rest of the FPS genre. If your a big gun fan, maybe CS or Q3 will be a better place to game.
Actually, come to think of it, Raven's extremely original game developers have somehow managed to come up with an exact replica of Q3 and UT weaponary.
So really, JKII offers nothing new to the gun fans. Cept maybe force powers, but hey. It's not like they use them with any degree of finese or skill.
It's just more like. DRAIN, GRIP and LIGHTNING to finish you off."

Dude, us competitive jk2 gunners have been playing jk since df1 and df2. We are used to JK's style. We have all played nf sabers at one point and are sick of them, hence why we rarely use them now. Most of us were hoping for new innovative weapons or just the same old conc and rail det, but all they could do was copy other games. In my opinion, LucasArts had a bad choice of a developement team to make their game. they should have at least played jk1:df2 before they made this game to see what it was like instead of making this game exactly like q3a/ut. Don't get me wrong I like those games, but i hate it when all the new games that come out are exactly the same, or more specifically, all the games by Raven Soft. As for us not using force powers to a finesse only drain, lightining, etc. to finish us off.. Dude have you ever seen one of us play? Our styles are amazing. Most of the elite ff players are mainly neutral players, occassionaly using absorb, rage, heal, heal other, energize, and protect. We mainly use a combination of speed, jump, strafe hoping, rage, push and pull to finish off our opponents. If you want to see some skill using force and weaponry why don't you challenge a top TDMin clan like DSbr, SCS, JaG, and dev.

now i am thoroughly pissed with this damn game...

i uninstalled to go back to the original, and now the damn game doesnt boot up at all....

thanks for messing up big time raven

Originally posted by: ZLaZ

Rocket, Slow as crud, easily pushable. Therm dets, easily predictable because of 4 clicks, also easily pushable(and since you have to charge up for range, you can push all of them). DEMP, utterly useless for anything but taking shields down. The rate you can take the hp down is horrible and ammo consumption is terrible for charge up.
Det packs. Unless it's in a small corrider, you can jump right over them, no damage done. And if it's a small corrider, you can saber throw them.
Mines. One saber throw will blow it up.
Distruptor. Saber blocks all primary shots. you have to stand still charging up and you can just dodge or force see.
The only guns that can effectivly take someone with a saber down is The old repeater and flak gun.

Edit: How about you thinking before posting.

First you originally argued that the repeater and golan were the only ways to kill a saberists becasue they deflected everything else. I listed the other weapons useful against a saberists and proved that statement to be wrong. So now you resort to blaming the force as a counter argument. Yet you can push and pull the saberits just as much as they can push pull you.

First off you can also push the repeater and golan fc. The only reason you dont blame force there is that they were so overpowered (rate of fire especailly the repeater) that a player cant push the shots way effectively. IMO your basically admitting that you cannot kill anyone without using the guns that overpowered push prior to the patch. Rockets and dets can easily kill saberists with proper use. Of course its alot harder than simply laying down high splash damage spam with the golan and repeater. As for the demp, the low health damage is the tradeoff for the high rate of fire and the secondary instantaneous hits. Its still possible to get kills with it, espeacilly against a saberists. Disrupter blocking is a side effect of force sight, have to learn to deal with it. Its not deflectable becasue I've shot people in primarty mode who were not moving and facing me and have ahd it hit, I have also sniped and have seen people do the blocking motion and have it miss, But thats force seeing. If it wasnt it was a bug, as the disrupter is supposed to be unblockable by the saber. Mines work only as well as you place them, another skill issue. Dets have a huge damage radius, jumping over them is not even half as easy as you imply. Once again, there are plenty of alternatives to using the golan and rpeater, it just takes the skill abnd patience to use them. And you can still use the repeater and golan, you just cant spam them.

Overall your argument about the golan and the repeater is still not valid. There are plenty of ways to kill saberists without them, and without having to use the saber to do it. Its just more complicated than spam repeater secondary or spam golan secondary.

To WonderPalm! and all the other Saberists:

It is aparent that your experience is limited to public gaming and saber ladders. In a FF CTF game, if you're carrying a saber, you're letting your team down. Why? Because a flag runner with rage + speed you cannot stop with a saber. A flag runner with absorb + speed you cannot stop with a saber. You cannot properly defend your base with a saber, or control the middle areas, or own the enemy's base.

Guns are vital to CTF. We need more skill? BAH! Put an awesome player against a newbie and the awesome play will not waste any shots. Put an awesome player against another awesome player and both are hurting for ammo. In CTF, every weapon except det-packs, rl, fletchet, and hr are useless. If you don't believe me, I invite you to play the top CTF team to show you how it's played.

We are not all saberists. You may like the saber. Good for you. FF Sabers in JK2 is about as fun to play as watching paint dry, in my opinion. I'm sorry you die on a gun server. That's why there are saber only servers. If you die on a gun server, don't cry about it.

again you dont know much do ya.
disruptor is blocked all the time, and NOT by seeing. you do a matrix like dodge animation when seeing is the cause of a dodge.. saber blocking animation is totally different. and the unzoomed disruptor is blocked quite often, especially with the new patch.

rockets are good yes, but they are easily pushable except for at very close range due to the slow travel speed. detpacks have to be used properly yes, but again, anybody who knows how to move can evade them easily enough. trip mines are useless, you can force speed through the beam right next to the mine and not get touched. secondary fire on them is useable, but even harder than with detpacks.

and the splash on the repeater and golan is not that big at all, its very difficult to hit somebody who is moving around who knows how to. agian, 90% of pubbers do NOT know how to move.

repeater isnt useable really against more htan one skilled player, the ammo cost for the number of shots it takes to kill is too high. flechette is more useable, but its not placed on all levels.

so we are back to try and hurt with repeater, then pray that the 90% blocking doesnt block every shot of your last ditch weapon cuz if so you're stuck with your 10 minute long 'finish' with the saber.

the guns and grip setting must be restored....

there is not enough ammo on maps to be using it properly

i will not give force to lightsaber, too many points wasted, end of discussion

if you installed the patch, this is what you do..
uninstall jk2, delete EVERYTHING in the jk2 folder
its the only way, otherwise you get mismatching versions of the game in check and it stops the startup

Originally posted by: [WD]Rage

To WonderPalm! and all the other Saberists:

It is aparent that your experience is limited to public gaming and saber ladders. In a FF CTF game, if you're carrying a saber, you're letting your team down. Why? Because a flag runner with rage + speed you cannot stop with a saber. A flag runner with absorb + speed you cannot stop with a saber. You cannot properly defend your base with a saber, or control the middle areas, or own the enemy's base.

Guns are vital to CTF. We need more skill? BAH! Put an awesome player against a newbie and the awesome play will not waste any shots. Put an awesome player against another awesome player and both are hurting for ammo. In CTF, every weapon except det-packs, rl, fletchet, and hr are useless. If you don't believe me, I invite you to play the top CTF team to show you how it's played.

We are not all saberists. You may like the saber. Good for you. FF Sabers in JK2 is about as fun to play as watching paint dry, in my opinion. I'm sorry you die on a gun server. That's why there are saber only servers. If you die on a gun server, don't cry about it.

First off let me clear up a misconception. I am not a saber only user. I enjoy ff guns and force just as much nf sabers, and use primarily guns during the ffa games.

Now lets address the first paragraph. You basically say that the saber is useless in ff ctf. If thats the case would tweaking the gun balance to make the saber be useful be wrong?

Now lets look at your gun paragraph. You say your skilled, yet the ONLY weapons you list under your list of useful ctf weapons are high splash damage weapons. Now lets take a look at those. The rocket launcher, thermal detonators, and detonator packs ALL have extremely limited ammo supplies. This is both before and after the patch. It makes sense becasue they do alot of damage and have a large radius. However, the repeater and the golan secondary prior to the patch also do high damage and have a large, though not as large as the rocket launcher, blast radius. Yet one could still spam them around and rack up kills in ANY mode. The patch has changed the golan secondary and repeater secondary to be just like the other high damage, large radius weapons.

So now you have to aim them so that the shots count becasue you only get a few. If you miss you'll have to use the other weapons, that rely more on aim and require a larger degree of skill to use effectively.

As for your final paragraph, I agree completely about ff sabers. Its both boring and really isnt about the sabers at all, as much as it is about force use. As for your comments on ff guns, I congratulate you if you go through ff gun maps without dying once. I'm by no means the greatest, but I usually end up at/near the top or around the middle of the scoreboard.
Post edited by Wonderpalm! at 5/7/2002 4:18:46 PM

large? perhaps the flechette due to the fact that it bounces around.

but repeater splash radius is NOT very big at all. try shooting next to someone, the splash damage isnt impressive, and with the fast and effective movement of two good players going at each other with it, it becomes very difficult to land shots.

and why not improve sabers instead of nerfing guns to make sabers more balanced in ffa and ctf games? only, they didnt do that. they made sabers even MORE useless with this patch because it takes so long to do a lot of damage to anybody with the new damage changes and blocking.

and i repeat myself in that the new blocking stops almost all direct fire attacks, so people in games are just going to whore ammo for the splash damage weapons even more.

Wonderpalm!,

My aim is excellent. That's not the problem. If you put myself up against another good player, ammo wastage will continue. Why? Because the better the play the more they move and harder to hit. It's not a matter of aim, because 75%+ of the competent CTF'ers are excellent shots.

Take this example. I have just picked up the HR, and I am defending the flag. All ammo is gone around me, so I'm left with the 100 ammo that's been given to me. Someone with 100/25 (health/sheilds) comes up and grabs the flag. This guy doesn't really know what he's doing. No speed, no rage, no absorb. I land 3 shots to kill him. I have one shot left to defend my flag. Now, how in hell am I supposed to adequately defend my flag if all I have is one shot? If the flag carrier had 100/100, or worse, 100/200 I'd be out of ammo and the flag carrier might be dead.

In my opinion, Raven is trying to make everyone conform to how THEY think the game should be played. If every game was like this, every game would suck. Take JK1 for example. I highly doubt the developers of JK1 anticipated the level took FF Sabs and FF Guns to. But playing on that level was fun, and I wouldn't have played any other way. I want to play the game how I want, not how the dev team wants.