Jedi Outcast Competition Flaws: Long Analysis

TWL Member

2002-04-15 19:27

I finally had a chance to play around with JK2: JO this past weekend. It was fairly simple to pick up the basics after playing so many FPS's and reading a few tip posts. Wasn't long before I was Pushing/Pulling people off ledges constantly and mastering the fine art of running away from Drain whores. I've played CTF pretty much exclusively up to this point, so this post pertains mostly to that style of gameplay.

I have no current interest in playing JK2: JO competitively until several significant balance issues are resolved.

The Flechette Gun, Missile Launcher, and Heavy Repeater pretty much surpass any other weapon in the game. As is the cast with nearly every first person shooter, rapid-firing splash damage weapons that inflict high damage reign supreme. After playing Unreal Tournament for a long time, it was an easy feat to pick up any of these 3 weapons and kick ass using copied tactics from UT. If you simply removed all three of these guns, or severly limited the ammunition for their powerful splash damage attacks, it would immediately make CTF Gun games far more intruiging (and unique in the grand scheme of first person shooters).

Force Powers also suffer from a few imbalances. I don't mind the Push/Pull/Grip wars as much as I strongly dislike the Drain vs Heal wars. Drain was supposed to be the counter to Heal, but it pretty much counters everything. The whole concept of having Force Powers is nullified when half the players on the server are Draining the Force out of the other half. Without Drain however, it is a simple matter for Lightside players to prolong combat by constant evasive jumps/rolls until they can Heal. This would be especially problematic if the splash damage guns were removed.

So, I'd rather just see Drain and Heal both removed or severly toned down. Short of removing/greatly nerfing Drain and Heal, I don't see much balance in the Force Powers anytime soon. Lightning vs Absorb would need to be re-calibrated a tiny bit, but with the Drain vs Heal issue settled it wouldn't be hard.

Lastly, I dislike playing on Jedi Master servers. Giving everyone a large amount of points to distribute amongst their Force Powers promotes conformity and hinders player's ability to create unique or special configurations. I would rather see the debate raging over whether or not the Force limit should be at Jedi vs Jedi Knight, not Jedi Knight vs Jedi Master.

I strongly feel that JK2 would be a great competitive game if the three guns mentioned were toned down, Drain and Heal were nerfed/removed, and the force limit on ladders was lowered to Jedi or Jedi Knight.

Nordramor
Nordy!

hardluck

TWL Member

2002-04-15 19:41

I agree with you on most everything.

1) those 3 weapons alone dominate to much, the game should have focused on sabers mostly, not 2 guns that you have little ability to "push" back.

--this is why i enjoy sabers only

2) jedi knight vs jedi master

--Jedi Knight is definately the best setting,
it promotes differentiation and team base
skill

3) Force drain force Heal

A bit controverial in my opinion. There are already man awesome force absorb/healers, and also many great drain/lighting/grip whores. Bot of which can have awesome and exciting power struggles in game. Athough these 2 aspects are a bit overpowered, i believe, they alone, give incentive for people to keep playing. On light or dark you can get the upper hand it just involves playing your cards right. Although unintentional i think the power of absorb/heal and drain/grip/lightinng is what will keep this game going...much like ski'ing did for t1.
Post edited by hardluck at 4/15/2002 7:42:47 PM

-Logan

TWL Member

2002-04-15 20:11

shut up obviously you were one of those newbies running around with a saber crying because someone with a gun killed you.

CRY ME A RIVER WAH

Crimson Fury

PacRim Admin

2002-04-15 20:12

I agree on all of the points Nordramor raised.

With the Flechette Gun and Heavy Repeater, I think the primary modes are fine, but the alt fire modes need to be toned down, or use a different type of ammo (that is limited in supply).

The missle launcher i'm not sure what you could change. The ammo is already limited, only things I can think of would be to lower either damage or projectile speed.

Another thing i'd like to see, tho this is more an idea for a mod, would be to have either a class based system (with weapons you spawn with, like in Team Fortress, RTCW and others) or an inventory system (similar to Tribes or C&C renagade).

The run-around-collecting-weapons every time you spawn thing gets annoying pretty fast (to me at least)

Whoracle

Forum Modulator

2002-04-15 20:33

I cant believe how rediculously stupid you are -Logan.

he's completely 100% correct. the guns are way unbalanced.
i dont cry about them, i rip the shit out of servers when i play on gun servers and what 3 weapons do u think i shred most with? those 3 b/c they are incredibly overpowered.

they need to be toned down, or the weapon ladders will continue to be gay. as for the force pwoers, Ravensoft acknowledges the balance issue and will be patching it sometime.

i like variety so i play with DarkSide on a CTF and TDM ladder, and im both FF and NF saber duel ladders.

i like them both but i agree with you, they need to be toned down, and logan needs to shut up.

TySoft

TWL Admin

2002-04-15 20:38

Originally posted by: -Logan

shut up obviously you were one of those newbies running around with a saber crying because someone with a gun killed you.

CRY ME A RIVER WAH

Calm down or you'll find yourself gone quick. Constructive comments = good. Spam = bad.
Post edited by TySoft at 4/15/2002 8:39:04 PM

ReaperKK

I still want...sex with tysoft

2002-04-15 21:11

I think the guns are fine but the second fire on the reapter is a little to powerful and those crazy balls are a little to much.

-Logan

TWL Member

2002-04-15 21:24

they already cut down on the ammo way to much as it is. and you want more gone. why dont you just go play sabers duels.

wah

-phr3ak

TWL Member

2002-04-15 21:55

the guns are suppose to be overpowered have you ever played jk1 in guns ppl only used 1 gun and noone cried about it except newbie saberists

Polaris

The Boss

2002-04-15 22:43

I disagree and got 3 big ass guns to back me up

Wonderpalm!

TWL Member

2002-04-15 22:49

With the exception of the repeater secondary fire (which is only overpowered due to its high rate of fire rather than its damage) the guns are fine. The missle launcher is a joke. You have to be extremely close or it'll just be pushed away or worse yet back in your face. The golan fc (flak gun) can be defelcted in primary mode. Secondary mode can be pushed back at the person or away from you. If you cant time your push to thier attacks, dodge then push the mines away. The repeater can be deflected and pushed in primary. The secondary mode can be pushed, but the rate of fire is so great that pushing is ineffective.

hardluck

TWL Member

2002-04-15 22:51

these issues keep popping up, could you please create a Full Force No Weapons TDM ladder please? Ctf isnt that great anyway in jedi knight, but its decent and will have a following. I believe a FF No Weap ladder would shut alot of people up, but right now your just shoving it in our face that you refuse to give us a no weapons full force ladder.

Nordramor

TWL Member

2002-04-16 00:48

Originally posted by: Wonderpalm!

With the exception of the repeater secondary fire (which is only overpowered due to its high rate of fire rather than its damage) the guns are fine. The missle launcher is a joke. You have to be extremely close or it'll just be pushed away or worse yet back in your face. The golan fc (flak gun) can be defelcted in primary mode. Secondary mode can be pushed back at the person or away from you. If you cant time your push to thier attacks, dodge then push the mines away. The repeater can be deflected and pushed in primary. The secondary mode can be pushed, but the rate of fire is so great that pushing is ineffective.

I'm quite aware of tactics involving using Push to deflect shots.

However, I'm also quite aware of how to defeat people trying to do this.

Simple case in point, after they Push the first shot, you simply get a little closer/farther away and change up your timing on the shots and eventually they'll miss a Push, or simply run out of Force.

Once they've wasted a lot of force trying to Push your shots away, you Grip/Push/Pull them around.

The majority of combat on CTF maps is currently waged in close-quarters; this is partially responsible for why these guns are overpowered. If you have one of these guns, you simply control the tight corridor zones where it is impossible (especially when you factor in lag) to consistently deflect shots with Push. Most maps have very convenient choke points leading to the flag areas for just such tactics.

Smart players can Push shots away, but they also know how to defeat their own tactic. The advantage is still in favor of the smart player who camps these three weapons.

And Logan, if I wanted a game where everything turned into repetitious control of several powerful weapons and corridor camping, I can play almost any other first person shooter. JK2 has some serious potential to be unique, but it's shooting itself in the foot with these kind of simple problems.

Nordramor
Nordy!

InsidiouS

TWL Member

2002-04-16 02:08

Hmm you guys have obviously never played Jk1.

The Concussion Rifle was "way" overpowered in that game, and that led to people complaining and thus, THEY ONLY JOINED SABER SERVERS.

Personally, I love the Repeaters alt. fire. I love the Flechette gun. (Although, IMO, they are far too much like UT or Quake. I wish they'd kept the Conc Rifle.) I don't think they are unbalanced. What the hell is "unbalanced" anyway? I can kill someone with a Repeater if I have a Str. Rifle. The Rocket Launcher is a pretty stupid gun, considering they don't give you enough ammo to make it very affective. (not to mention what happens in FF games.)

Yet, I look forward to some mods and patches.

Polaris

The Boss

2002-04-16 07:18

Now that i have an extra couple minutes, I would like to explain my position on this.

First off, I do think that a FF, saber only TDM ladder is a must. I will work with the admins to get this taken care of. Odds are it will be a conversion of an existing ladder.

As for the weapons, I totally disagree about the imbalancing. I have been in quite a few repeater vs rocket vs flachette battles and they are a blast. The weapons balance out reasonably well. If you try to compare them to the blaster rifle, disruptor, or bow caster you are just wasting your time. The game has 3 heavy weapons, which is more than i can say for most games.

The only tweak that would probably cut back on the whining is if the respawn rate of the weapons was longer. Right now it seems to be about 10 seconds. Bump that to 20 and you get fewer repeater orgys.

also, I have come across a few players who are pretty much impossible to kill with the heavy weapons unless you get a really good shot. With the ladders set at JM level force, the everyone is running with lev 3 push and a quick player can keep the impact of the alt fire of the repeater to a minimum.

I have played a good bit of TDM and I beleive sabers is the way to go. The guns, imo, are for CTF. JK2 CTF kicks ass as a result of a good collection of tools and 4 great maps (I would like to see more maps for it however). TDM is pretty much annoying with the guns because you lose all the elegance of a good mid-game duel.

]CkB[Polaris
Teamwarfare Director of Operations

Crimson Fury

PacRim Admin

2002-04-16 07:21

Originally posted by: hardluck

these issues keep popping up, could you please create a Full Force No Weapons TDM ladder please?

Its being looked into, Patient's Jedi

Crimson Fury

PacRim Admin

2002-04-16 07:21

Originally posted by: Nordramor

Originally posted by: Wonderpalm!

JK2 has some serious potential to be unique, but it's shooting itself in the foot with these kind of simple problems.

Polaris

The Boss

2002-04-16 07:22

oops.... forgot to discuss the force powers.

I think JM is too high for the most part. I believe that the way to find the best players is to reduce their loadout capabilities and force them to choose wisely. I could do without pretty much all the light and dark powers in match play. Lightning, drain, absorb and the like are fun, but it turns into a bit of a cluster. How much fun is it to run around with absorb on while a bunch of clueless hacks try to lightning and grip you all day?

The biggest weakness to the force powers is evident in the lack of diversity among players. There seem to be a large percentage of the powers that are getting overlooked in order to drain, grip, heal, and absorb everything.

Crimson Fury

PacRim Admin

2002-04-16 07:25

Originally posted by: InsidiouS

Hmm you guys have obviously never played Jk1.

The Concussion Rifle was "way" overpowered in that game, and that led to people complaining and thus, THEY ONLY JOINED SABER SERVERS.

Personally, I like the game with guns, I want the sabers + other guns to be worthwhile AS WELL AS what are currently the 3 powerful guns. If those 3 were toned down a little, ppl would still find ways to use them effectively, and the other weapons would have more use. This allows for a larger variety of effective tactics+strategies, which ATM are all easily defeated using one've the 3 overpowered wepaons.

absolute

Title Beggar!

2002-04-16 09:40

all this seeing how about 5 CTF FF games have been played so far. thanks for sharing from all your extensive experience.

Nordramor

TWL Member

2002-04-16 09:46

Originally posted by: Crimson Fury
Personally, I like the game with guns, I want the sabers + other guns to be worthwhile AS WELL AS what are currently the 3 powerful guns. If those 3 were toned down a little, ppl would still find ways to use them effectively, and the other weapons would have more use. This allows for a larger variety of effective tactics+strategies, which ATM are all easily defeated using one've the 3 overpowered wepaons.

This is exactly what I'm hoping to see. I don't find Saber only games to be particularly interesting, but when you throw in Guns, it becomes a Flechette/Rocket/Repeater game. I would like to see a middleground where everything gets commonly used.

Nordramor
Nordy!

Sith_Incarnite_IRON

TWL Member

2002-04-16 09:57

Hey...I say keep your guns...I'll still kill you with a comination of saber and force. I may get killed in the process on occasion but I'll still give as good as I get. Actually I'll get even more satisfaction from knowing that I took you out without using guns while you frantically bunny hopped around trying to get me first but couldn't pull it off. Hey...it's all in good fun right? hehe. Just enjoy the game!

Fyunch Click

TWL Member

2002-04-16 10:37

Have you actually tried usuing your force powers against gun users?
Push works against missles and the secondary fire of the weapons you are discussing in particular, forcing the projectiles BACK into the person firing them. Pull will yank the weapon from their hands rendering the weapoin useless and casuing no end of confusion. Speed will allow you to retreat or close and chop them into bits. Mind trick allows you to dissapear and sneak up and kill them. Jump will allow you to move out of range of the splash damage. Protect saves you from physical damage, like splash damage. If all else fails pull a gun, wall walk towards them and shoot them.

Jesus, folks, get a grip. The game has been out 2 weeks. Learn some strategy. Don't just stand there and take it. It isn't Unreal Tournament or Quake 3, just because you think you are a Jedi doesn't mean you are invincible.
-LoS-Fyunch Click- SOUP-
Captain, -LoS- JK2 CTF Team; JK2 TDM Sabers Team
Member, -SoUP- T2 7Man Base CTF

I fully expect to be banned at any moment.

Talamius

TWL Member

2002-04-16 11:34

My random thoughts on this, based on what experience I've had so far.

Grip in a competition setting is useful only against Dark jedi. Any Light jedi with half a brain will break Grip with Absorb, and then proceed to own the gripper while his grip force cools down.

Push and Pull are balanced, and part of the game. They're what makes JK2, well, JK2, and not another Quake-ish FPS.

Almost all of the forces have some use, especially in comp play (scrims and matches)

The HE is powerful, but not OVERpowering. While you're dark raging with speed in towards the flag with the HE, you are a sitting duck for a full power snipe through the skull.

The saber is primarily a defensive tool. I only really use it in a few situations, namely to deflect HE fire and snipes from long range. At close range, I'll use flak alt to push an HE user back out of range if possible (they bounce around ALOT when hit with flak alt fire, and that leaves them open to Push), or just pull his gun away.

I do agree with Logan that ammo, and guns in general, are pretty well balanced out. The only adjustment to Force I can think of is to extend the cooldown for Drain by a few seconds, and that's it.

JK2 has much more balance than people give it credit for.

Nordramor

TWL Member

2002-04-16 12:03

Originally posted by: Fyunch Click

Have you actually tried usuing your force powers against gun users?
Push works against missles and the secondary fire of the weapons you are discussing in particular, forcing the projectiles BACK into the person firing them. Pull will yank the weapon from their hands rendering the weapoin useless and casuing no end of confusion. Speed will allow you to retreat or close and chop them into bits. Mind trick allows you to dissapear and sneak up and kill them. Jump will allow you to move out of range of the splash damage. Protect saves you from physical damage, like splash damage. If all else fails pull a gun, wall walk towards them and shoot them.

Since you obviously didn't read my response to that suggestion, I'll reiterate: Push/Pull on gun users only works if the gun user isn't expecting it. Once you loose the gimmick effect of the tactic, it is very easy for to counter. No good player who picks up a Imperial Heavy Repeater is going to fall victim to his own tactics.

This is not a question of 'stupid player with gun' versus 'smart player without gun'. This is a question of balance between 'smart player with flechette/rocket/repeater' versus 'smart player armed with any other weapon'. In that situation, I expect the F/R/R user to win the overwhelming majority of the time.

As for Incarnite_IRON's response, I don't mind those kind of 'lone man against the Repeater campers' sentiments for public play, but there's no way I would want to have that attitude in competition.

To Talamius: I don't think Grip is unbalanced, mainly just Drain/Heal. Also, you site a specific example of using one of the three over-powered guns to counter another of the over-powered guns. If everyone uses only the Flechette/Rocket/Repeater then yes, it is balanced, just incredibly narrow and strategically limited.

JK2 does have a pretty good balance going for the most part; it just has a few Force powers and a few guns that throw the rest out of sync. Fix these few imbalances and everything else is in pretty good shape.

Nordramor
Nordy!

Fyunch Click

TWL Member

2002-04-16 12:55

I did read your post. If you disagree with me that is fine, I can accept that but to dismiss my comments out of hand is rude. Note: that if you are attacking then force powers will work against you. It is when you are in a defensive position or facing a force user while standing still and not attacking that a force power will not work. I do this techinque against gun users multiple times a night on FFA, CTF and CTY servers. (BTW I am an equal opporitunity player. I use saber, force and gun equally. Why limit yourself?)

-LoS-Fyunch Click- SOUP-
Captain, -LoS- JK2 CTF Team; JK2 TDM Sabers Team
Member, -SoUP- T2 7Man Base CTF

I fully expect to be banned at any moment.

Nordramor

TWL Member

2002-04-16 17:55

Originally posted by: Fyunch Click

I did read your post. If you disagree with me that is fine, I can accept that but to dismiss my comments out of hand is rude. Note: that if you are attacking then force powers will work against you. It is when you are in a defensive position or facing a force user while standing still and not attacking that a force power will not work. I do this techinque against gun users multiple times a night on FFA, CTF and CTY servers. (BTW I am an equal opporitunity player. I use saber, force and gun equally. Why limit yourself?)

Then I apologize for the rudeness but, Yes, I disagree with you. And yes, I know how to auto-cancel Push/Pull and how to tag people with Push/Pull when they attack. It is much, much more difficult, and Force Power consuming, to try and time a Push/Pull on a person who is bouncing you around with a Flechette/Rocket/Repeater than with any other weapon.

Once you've used up your Force Powers trying to save yourself from the F/R/R with either Protect, Push, Pull, or Speed, your opponent now has free reign to beat you down with his Force Powers. Using the F/R/R allows YOU to control the fight; to dictate what your opponent must do merely to survive. They are the focus point of Gun CTF games. I would rather see a diversity of focus points than the reliance on these three guns to determine strategy.

Nordramor
Nordy!

-Simplex-

TWL Member

2002-04-16 21:30

The rocket launcher is fine....with only 10 rockets and a slow rate of fire, I can jump/dodge/PUSH them out of the way.

The flechette gun....kinda bulky and stupid. The secondary fire can be pushed away, no? I honestly die too quick to have tried. And for the main fire, its alright...bulky so I dont use it though.

The Heavy Repeater....the secondary fire is totally different/wacky from its primary first off. Besides it being just odd, it is way overpowered, so thus I concur.

All other guns are fine, all other force powers are fine EXCEPT drain and possibly heal. This is, however, about guns and countering.

So, I think in the enivetable add on, since Raven is pack happy it seems, we will see some class changes, like we did in MotS.

Perhaps make people with the repeater/flechette/rocket launcher slower?

And.....someone brought up a point that someone will slip up using force push against rockets/other weapons, and die. I think this is -the point of the game-. Your not supposed to be able to live with full health, or counter every single weapon.

If you cannot say what you mean, you can truly never mean what you say.

Gallium

TWL Member

2002-04-16 22:18

damn newbies

here is an idea:

run up to guy, hit pull, use his own weapon to kill him

better yet, go CAP THE FLAG AND NOT WORRY ABOUT THEM SHOOTING AT YOU.

The weapons are perfect as is, you can use any weapon to kill a capper, but obviously some are easier then others. You can also kill the nme using pretty much any weapon, if you are skilled enough.

BTW, these scenarios you are describing "he HE's me I push back at him he changes timing I die" wont happen in a competition setting, as a capper you dont look to kill the D, you look to get by them, MAYBE getting off a few shots. As a defensemen you arent getting involved in major force wars, mainly push, pull, and speed, with some drain and see thrown in there occasionally.

Play some competiton before assuming how it plays.

FF CTF is the most fun ive had since Tribes 1 top 10 TWL matches

-Gallium

Baxter

TWL Member

2002-04-17 04:33

Since most of you haven't played in matches yet, I offer this observation:

Close quarters combat with TEAM DAMAGE enabled creates a situation where the heavy spam weapons are equally dangerous to your teammates as the opponent.

As for weapon balance: You can take out a player with the Bryar. You can take them out with the stormtrooper rifle. Sometimes, even the wookie bowcaster can kill people. The Disruptor is sweet. Every weapon is useful. Compare this to JK1 where the conc rifle was your only friend. I see JK2 as a huge improvement.

Why can't sabers compete with weapons? They're not supposed to. They didn't in JK1, and they don't in JK2. However, you can whoop the ass an unsuspecting person with a saber. That is very much like the piston in UT.

Now... where is that sabers-only TDM ladder?

Diogenes

TWL Member

2002-04-17 08:31

Originally posted by: Gallium

FF CTF is the most fun ive had since Tribes 1 top 10 TWL matches

-Gallium

They were damn good games weren't they? This is exactly the statement that our guys were saying over GV right after our match.

Balanced: No

Fun: Yes

I might change my views after another few matches, I'd probably change them if I saw a team just exploiting the hell out of one of the disbalnced factors (like a #1 team using all elf guns :p). Our first match went for two maps, and I swear to you the secondary fire rate of the repeater was the last thing on my mind Nord.

Fyunch Click

TWL Member

2002-04-17 09:49

Sorry Nord, not trying to flame, had a bad day yesterday. Sorry if it came out that way in the posts.

As to balancing though, shouldn't your D be using guns primarily? You want something with splash damage and area of effect to bounce these folks around making it much harder to grab the flag and escape with it. Plus you want something with BIG damage to stop the cappers from getting to the flag or getting away with it.
It sucks for the O players who don't use guns, but that's why they have protect, absorb and the like. Plus most cappers seem to like using the saber for capping, it gives you better mobility, plus you can turn off the saber, giving you some measure of stealth on your way in. Generally, IMO, you want your runners to have the Lightside powers so that they can defend themselves all the way back to the flag.
For me the Darkside powers are for midfielders and interceptors.

Sure there should be some tweaking done, I'm not saying the game is perfect, but we really haven't scratched the strategic surface yet. Folks are still using the Q3 and UT approach and haven't started to incorporate the other elements completely yet. Give it a month and let's get some feedback from the ladders. (My Tribe's first real JK2 CTF match is coming up, can't wait!)

-LoS-Fyunch Click- SOUP-
Captain, -LoS- JK2 CTF Team; JK2 TDM Sabers Team
Member, -SoUP- T2 7Man Base CTF

I fully expect to be banned at any moment.

Crimson Fury

PacRim Admin

2002-04-17 16:09

Originally posted by: Nordramor
I would rather see a diversity of focus points than the reliance on these three guns to determine strategy.

Crimson Fury

PacRim Admin

2002-04-17 16:15

Originally posted by: -Simplex-

The rocket launcher is fine....with only 10 rockets and a slow rate of fire, I can jump/dodge/PUSH them out of the way.

The flechette gun....kinda bulky and stupid. The secondary fire can be pushed away, no? I honestly die too quick to have tried. And for the main fire, its alright...bulky so I dont use it though.

The Heavy Repeater....the secondary fire is totally different/wacky from its primary first off. Besides it being just odd, it is way overpowered, so thus I concur.

All other guns are fine, all other force powers are fine EXCEPT drain and possibly heal. This is, however, about guns and countering.

So, I think in the enivetable add on, since Raven is pack happy it seems, we will see some class changes, like we did in MotS.

Perhaps make people with the repeater/flechette/rocket launcher slower?

And.....someone brought up a point that someone will slip up using force push against rockets/other weapons, and die. I think this is -the point of the game-. Your not supposed to be able to live with full health, or counter every single weapon.

RL is easy to push at long-medium range, but at medium-close (while far enough back not to take splash damaage), your opponent rarely has time to push rockets back.

As for the primary fire on the flechette gun, I disagree that its useless. Use it like a Quake-style double barrel shotgun, for close-point blank range, and you'll find it does extreme damage. The alt-fire is basically a double-grenade launcher!

Slowing down ppl with one've those 3 guns selected (ala RTCW) might work.

And to the last point, I don't think anyone is suggesting that you should be able to avoid guns + keep full health. Its that even if you *DON'T* make a mistake, some of the shots will get through because the guns can maintain constant fire for longer than force powers or any other tactic can defend against.

Crimson Fury

PacRim Admin

2002-04-17 16:26

Originally posted by: Baxter

Since most of you haven't played in matches yet, I offer this observation:

Close quarters combat with TEAM DAMAGE enabled creates a situation where the heavy spam weapons are equally dangerous to your teammates as the opponent.

As for weapon balance: You can take out a player with the Bryar. You can take them out with the stormtrooper rifle. Sometimes, even the wookie bowcaster can kill people. The Disruptor is sweet. Every weapon is useful. Compare this to JK1 where the conc rifle was your only friend. I see JK2 as a huge improvement.

Why can't sabers compete with weapons? They're not supposed to. They didn't in JK1, and they don't in JK2. However, you can whoop the ass an unsuspecting person with a saber. That is very much like the piston in UT.

Now... where is that sabers-only TDM ladder?

The Team Damage factor is a relevant point. And the game is certainly an improvment over JK1. Thing is, i'm not saying the game sucks or anything. I love the game, i'm simply pointing out things I feel could improve the game even more. I'd guess the same applies to most ppl adding ideas to this thread.

Crimson Fury

PacRim Admin

2002-04-17 16:28

Originally posted by: Diogenes

They were damn good games weren't they? This is exactly the statement that our guys were saying over GV right after our match.

Balanced: No

Fun: Yes

See thats the point. Sure the game is fun, with better balance it can be MORE fun, and allow greater variety of tactics.
Post edited by Crimson Fury at 4/17/2002 4:32:31 PM

Gallium

TWL Member

2002-04-17 18:52

Fury, the game IS about tactics, who can execute THEIR strategy the best.

And when you get down to it, it isnt about ONE gun, it is about whatever gun you can get to first. The game would suck if every gun was equally powerful, their are drawbacks and boons for EVERY gun.

The wookie blaster is accurate and can take down a fully shielded capper in 4 shots, an EASY task for any competent defender.

The imperial assault rifle tears up any player who doesnt have their LS out

The HE has a powerful secondary and a stream of bullets for primary

the flechette gun has both a double shottie and double grenade action

missle launcher creates hella damage and can heat seak

I dont even know what you guys are whining about, even if you cant shoot, when u use force speed + mind trick or force speed + dark rage you can get around even the most skilled defender. Barring that you can use speed + pull and TAKE THEIR WEAPON FROM THEM!

The game is about tactics, and strategy, the guns are not nearly as unbalanced as you say.

further more, you are all a bunch of goddamned communists. "wah everything equal"

-Gallium

g!bz

TWL Member

2002-04-24 15:08

i would first like to point out a few things

1-the morons trying to say that that their should be 'saber only tdm', please stop talking and go eat a shotgun, you are the exact reason that jk2 servers are becoming boring

2-why is it the same people who are bitching about this game only being about one gun trying to suggest their be saber only ladders?

3-for those of you who run servers, stop changing the god damn force powers back and forth, its retarded to go from one server to the next and be forced to change my forces arround because of someone who got owned by someone using the force so they lessened it, jedi master is the way the game is played on ALL ladders, so stop even trying to argue the fact that anything else should be played..if you cant play the game then dont play it

4-if you notice there are FF ladders and NF ladders, if you dont like the force then play the god damn no force, its not that complicated

i think where this game went wrong was allowing people to set up options, apparently only idiots are setting up servers and not setting them up properly, and the people setting them up correclty are passing their servers so that noone can play. for those of you who run servers, stop putting 'JK2 TDM!' on the title and then putting the settings to saber only and stop with the 20 different force levels, use the damn force level that is played by all compititions and ladders, jedi master.

Hal-\X/

TWL Member

2002-04-24 19:04

I would have to agree that the game is fine as it is... I hate the people who run around Draining everybody, but hey - thats just part of the game. I bet you hate it when I smack you with my saber. I play as lightside and whine how lopsided the powers are too, but in the back of my mind I know that I can play as darkside too, yet I choose not too because the powers are NOT lopsided. It just seems that way to me when I get chain-drained and then zapped for 10 consecutive seconds with lightning. The Repeater and the Flachette are obtainable equally for everybody. I can get one and you can get one, no matter if you are dark, light, capping or chasing - we can both be flinging purple energy globs at each other. Dont like it? Hmm, well then its a good thing there are a kazillion servers WITHOUT guns.. There are even ladders specifically for that. Dont mean to sound rude, but what is the issue? Dont like guns? Join a server without them. Dont like force powers? join a server with a low-force level or one without the force period. I think this game is very flexible in that sense.
:o
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hardluck

TWL Member

2002-04-25 11:19

heh g1bs. Tw is the only ladder with any sizeable amount of competition...and its quite large actually compared to other games...and only 3 weeks out.

Do you think its coincidence that tw is considering and probably changing the ladders to Jedi knight force setting? no.

Did you know their changing the TDM NO FORCE GUNS ladder to TDM JK Sabers only probably?