opinions on the talentless force power: pull

This thread had 8 pages; 2 pages were never captured by the Wayback Machine — some replies are missing.

TWL Member

2003-01-23 00:17

Originally posted by: DeTRiTiC-iQ

Well yes, i'm getting bored of CTF because its starting to lack depth. In my opinion, pull and push and rage in their current forms should never have been added to the game.

i agree 100%. jk2 would be so much funner minus pull/push/rage.

it takes skill to get good at the movement in a game. in jk2's case: strafe jump, circle strafing, dodge manuvers, etc. so what happens when you get really good at movement? ANY RANDOM NEWBIE WHO HAS NEVER PLAYED JK2 BEFORE CAN STOP YOU WITH THE PUSH OF A BUTTON. stand still, press the "pull" bind.

push/pull are a joke and take the skill right out of this game imo. imagine the crazy fast paced action and accuracy one would have to achieve to hit a fast moving, high jumping player, without a "pull" feature to completely stop him. this game would be so much more crazy fast paced and funner than it already is if you took pull out of the mix.

another rant i have about pull is on how it punishes you for being good at strafe jumping. its like a big rubber band when you're raging. you do a super fast and far circle jump and you get pulled back super far. but you do a shitty newbie jump who cant move well, you dont get pulled back as much. pull actually punishes you for being good at the movement in this game and that is fucking stupid.

[09:49] [mikestg] its alot of pressure always having to live up to dsbr standards
[09:49] [mikestg] i wish they would just let me be

Response

TWL Member

2003-01-23 00:27

agreed

Screed

TWL Member

2003-01-23 01:12

Try playing a saber only CTF game with full force, theres alot of skill in that. IMO I find guns to be far too easy to kill a flag carrier and takes alot of the "thrill" out of the game. Push/Pull are only cheap for those who do not know how to counter it. Ever heard of absorb? Rage is easily delt with by a grip kick etc.. Theres always a counter to a move. Why dont you guys just play NoForce guns if you dont like force powers in the game?

Sph1nx

TWL Member

2003-01-23 01:47

Man, don't be coming here telling a DSbr guy about how a saber CTF game requires alot of skill. Are you wearing asbestos I hope?

Anyway, I agree. Pull n00bishness is hella gay. I don't think it could ever be completely removed from the game though. Instead, absorb should be tweaked so it ummm..ABSORBS that bullshit, and doesnt stop you in mid air or fuck up your strafe. When you get more than one push/pull newbie in the midfield say in bespin, or in WF, the game becomes so incredibly gay that I usually disconnect. Absorb should ABSORB and cause no other effect on the person absorbing when they are push/pulled.

Post edited by Sph1nx at 1/23/2003 1:47:51 AM

SupermanXP

TWL Member

2003-01-23 01:48

I play sabers only here and there...its very boring..but gotta use alot of help from the team..but getting the flag returned takes foreverrrrrr..funny how im BANNED from =x= server now lol..even though i talked trash a bit saying i owned one of there players 7-1 oh well stupid noobs...sabers only sucks...

Sph1nx

TWL Member

2003-01-23 01:49

Another thing they could do, is make it so you have to AIM at somebody to push/pull them, rather than just point in their general direction.

ShinYiu

TWL Member

2003-01-23 02:05

BWHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! couple of lmao on this thread.

1. "its like a big rubber band when you're raging"

2. "Man, don't be coming here telling a DSbr guy about how a saber CTF game requires alot of skill. Are you wearing asbestos I hope?"

Screed

TWL Member

2003-01-23 02:25

Come and play on the =X= ctf server, im always on there playing and you can kick my ass all you want

Apollo

JK2 / CS Admin

2003-01-23 02:33

Originally posted by: Screed

Try playing a saber only CTF game with full force, theres alot of skill in that. IMO I find guns to be far too easy to kill a flag carrier and takes alot of the "thrill" out of the game. Push/Pull are only cheap for those who do not know how to counter it. Ever heard of absorb? Rage is easily delt with by a grip kick etc.. Theres always a counter to a move. Why dont you guys just play NoForce guns if you dont like force powers in the game?

CTF sabers doesn't have any meaning in a full weapons game. You just can't compare the two. There is no "grip kick" in full weapons because there is no time for that. None of us want to play CTF without force, because then it just becomes Quake 3. I agree, pull and push are extremely abused, and in a full weapons match it often becomes the primary defense for some teams. I don't see rage as a huge problem, it makes the game fast. Pull/Push, however, are definitely flawed in my opinion.
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-matt

TWL Member

2003-01-23 03:06

Originally posted by: Screed

Ever heard of absorb? Rage is easily delt with by a grip kick etc..

NOPE NEVER HEARD OF IT. rofl ok back to the saberist forum for you. pls refrain from talking in this thread.

[09:49] [mikestg] its alot of pressure always having to live up to dsbr standards
[09:49] [mikestg] i wish they would just let me be

-matt

TWL Member

2003-01-23 03:11

Originally posted by: Sph1nx

Instead, absorb should be tweaked so it ummm..ABSORBS that bullshit, and doesnt stop you in mid air or fuck up your strafe. When you get more than one push/pull newbie in the midfield say in bespin, or in WF, the game becomes so incredibly gay that I usually disconnect. Absorb should ABSORB and cause no other effect on the person absorbing when they are push/pulled.

EXACTLY Sph1nx, i totally agree. force_absorb COMPLETELY ABSORBS force lightning, for example. no damage is recieved from the lightning and your force level is boosted. why isn't pull like this? logically no effect should be recieved from pull when absorb is enabled.

push/pull should only effect a player who does not have absorb on to counter it. holy shit just imagine how much fun ctf would be on WF like this. D/Mid would need ACTUALL TALENT instead of the usual pull/shoot technique.

new mod?
Post edited by -matt at 1/23/2003 3:13:38 AM

[09:49] [mikestg] its alot of pressure always having to live up to dsbr standards
[09:49] [mikestg] i wish they would just let me be

Response

TWL Member

2003-01-23 03:15

Originally posted by: Response

agreed

GEEZus!

Thinks idiots are FUNNAY

2003-01-23 05:16

I agree if anything pull should only strip weapons and push should only bounce back projectiles if any of them are to be in the game. The way these two powers hinder movement really takes away from the speed and fun of the game. The least they could have done is charged more force for the powers, if two or three pulls took away all your force it wouldn't be used near as much and it would make absorb more affective. In previous patches absorb actually worked well against it, but I guess it was nerfed for the saber newbies.
What's a good way to balance it? If you were to eliminate pull there's no question you'd have to eliminate rage.
Best solution in my opinion would be to either charge half a force bar per pull/push or just have pull/push affect weapons not player movement. With pull/push nerfed like so or completely eliminated it would be best to not completely kill rage, but keep it's increased rate of fire and take away it's other strengths, with that you'd have to do something to light side to keep balance so maybe have people turn blue and stay blue when using absorb like it was in jk1 and 1.02.
Sorry for the long post =P I've always had this opinion about the game, and am just explaining the way I would fix the problems. It's gotten ridiculous for CTF, clans base their entire strategy (I won't mention any names) on having one defender do nothing, but pull and self kill as soon as he runs out of force it just takes away from the game.
AND why did a saber newbie post on this??? ALL they do is pull that's the only way they seem to score kills in CTF, if you've played in a sabers only game at Yavin this is proven, they just don't know what to do!

Wonka

TWL Member

2003-01-23 09:53

if pull and push didn't exist then absorb would be useless.

mORe|ownagE

TWL Member

2003-01-23 10:15

Yea it gets annoying when you have absorb on and the pull you just to stop you and kill you. iTs fucking gay. Yes we should have a mod that makes absorb the most powerful force in the game.
"The quickest way to end a war is to lose it."

You Fall Into a Trance

RA-Reckless

TWL Member

2003-01-23 10:35

Push/pull are very annoying, but as said before dont nerf them, just boost absorb so that it actually...um absorbs stuff. Another idea is narrow the angle of effect on push/pull IE have to have cross hair on person/ballistic to affect it, none of this push stuff behind me crap.

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me>you
Have a nice Fucking day n00bs
See you on the other side...
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-rusted

TWL Member

2003-01-23 11:43

BF pre-game team chat:

Wonka: ok everybody, positions?

Superman: offense

ph0xx: offense

Wonka: perim

Tormentor: flag

Aoshi: pull whore, enemy base

Everybody: roger!
Post edited by -rusted at 1/23/2003 11:47:24 AM

I suggest you get to practicing rusted - logan

-staind

TWL Member

2003-01-23 11:45

lol it's true

hero.

takes weiner in the pooper

2003-01-23 11:52

rage is gay, push pull need to take 35 insted of 20 force.
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-Legend

TWL Member

2003-01-23 11:57

Originally posted by: GEEZus!I agree if anything pull should only strip weapons and push should only bounce back projectiles if any of them are to be in the game. The way these two powers hinder movement really takes away from the speed and fun of the game. The least they could have done is charged more force for the powers, if two or three pulls took away all your force it wouldn't be used near as much and it would make absorb more affective. In previous patches absorb actually worked well against it, but I guess it was nerfed for the saber newbies.
What's a good way to balance it? If you were to eliminate pull there's no question you'd have to eliminate rage.
Best solution in my opinion would be to either charge half a force bar per pull/push or just have pull/push affect weapons not player movement. With pull/push nerfed like so or completely eliminated it would be best to not completely kill rage, but keep it's increased rate of fire and take away it's other strengths, with that you'd have to do something to light side to keep balance so maybe have people turn blue and stay blue when using absorb like it was in jk1 and 1.02.

i totally agree.

i've thought for a while that push/pull should be changed to do nothing more than weapon pulling/projectile pushing. balancing out rage... imo ragers should be more killable, maybe just take twice as much damage instead of whatever it is at the moment - 4x or 8x. ? i dunno maybe someone who has researched this will tell me. also absorb would be fine as it is if push/pull/rage were changed in this way, it would give light players more oppurtunity to use protect or some other force power without fear of being pull whored.

i've always thought that jk2 could be made so much better, the force power system is just there waiting to be changed for the better. i've thought about making a mod... mainly aimed at ctf but i guess these force changes would be OK for TDM. i've got limited mod making knowledge after just fooling around and making instagib. if there are enough people wanting a new mod or something i'll be willing to help/have a go myself.

what i think a good mod would need: some better match features... like OSP... admin feature stuff, force power adjustments... maybe have some system where games can be customised more. e.g. cvars for force power costs and weapon costs etc. if this is possible. but i guess this might make the mod dumb with a lot of people playing wierdo settings.

hmm this thread is constructive. lets not flame on it.

hero.

takes weiner in the pooper

2003-01-23 12:00

Originally posted by: hero.

rage is gay, push pull need to take 35 insted of 20 force.

but how do you stop someone that is going faster than your rockets... aboive your head.. well the answer is, you dont.
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Infamous'i2-SF

TWL Member

2003-01-24 22:24

Originally posted by: BF_*StarCraft*

matt push in pull is in jk2... dont like it? dont use it. make things simple man

GEEZus!

Thinks idiots are FUNNAY

2003-01-24 22:32

That's a really logical statement considering he's talking about people who use it constantly.
I think the saber newbies have come on this board enough start banning them or...
Post edited by GEEZus! at 1/24/2003 10:33:23 PM

-sexpie

I will not use racial slurs

2003-01-24 22:49

GEEZus is right, saberists use your own forum to flame.

{FK}Founder

TWL Member

2003-01-24 23:23

Let's look at it like this. Absorb is meant to ABSORB force powers. EVERY other force power used on an absorber does not affect their motion, IE grip, lightning, drain. So why does push/pull? If it did it's job it shouldn't slow you down. However, if pull didn't affect absorb, nearly everyone would be lightside.

However I find it funny coming from a DSbr this complaint. In our match with them last night on Yavin they had two darksiders spamming lvl3 energize and spamming pull on anyone who grabbed the flag. Just a little ironic that they're big pull whores themselves yet they bitch about it.
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DeTRiTiC-iQ

TWL Member

2003-01-25 00:23

Everyone seems to be missing the point. Matt isn't arguing that you need to use pull and push to win, he's saying that the game is fundamentally flawed if you need to rely on a cheap and skill-less set of moves to play.

I don't mind if someone kills me out of skill, I learn something from it and at least I know that the kill was earnt. I have never got any satisfaction from use of pull/push it feels cheap to use it, and it annoying being on the receiving end of it.

What is satisfying is using something like a thermal detonator and gently nuding a rager off course into a pit. That requires skill AND both the attacker and victim appreciate the moment.

Its not an issue that pull/push is a necessity given the use of rage, its a pretty well established fact. But if Raven were going to make 1/2 of the total CTF maps into pit-of-doom style they should have thought things out a lot more thoroughly and perhaps have gotten some proper beta-testers.

-hamtaro

TWL Member

2003-01-25 08:37

kill rage replace it with destruct

kill push/pull make them pull weapons/push projectiles, make push completely useless for all i care its retarded episode 1 crap anyways.

make lightning hurt when absorb is turned on but still absorb force.

make destruct hurt when absorb is turned on but still absorb force.

ITS ABSORB FOR CHRISSAKES NOT PROTECT.

let someone turn on both absorb and protect at the same time with double mana drain.

make absorb fully absorb drain (+bonus to mana) with no other effect.

don't change force power costs, angle of motion, or any other retarded thing jk2++ did, just leave all of that crap alone and the game is fine.

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[16:52:04] (pds|dynom|te) maybe one day when ur testes grow you'll play a man's game like q3

i guess they don't teach people how to read in his part of south central.
power of the internet words > power of the down syndrome.

DSbr<<ra3.jk2.national.recruiting
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Infamous'i2-SF

TWL Member

2003-01-25 08:40

Let me put it this way

We all have diffrent opinions obviously, we saberists want pull/push in the game because those 2 forces is basically what our game is based on, while you gunners hate them because it totally ruins your stratagy w/e. Why dont you just play on a server with disabled push and pull?

-hamtaro

TWL Member

2003-01-25 08:42

Originally posted by: {FK}Founder

Let's look at it like this. Absorb is meant to ABSORB force powers. EVERY other force power used on an absorber does not affect their motion, IE grip, lightning, drain. So why does push/pull? If it did it's job it shouldn't slow you down. However, if pull didn't affect absorb, nearly everyone would be lightside.

However I find it funny coming from a DSbr this complaint. In our match with them last night on Yavin they had two darksiders spamming lvl3 energize and spamming pull on anyone who grabbed the flag. Just a little ironic that they're big pull whores themselves yet they bitch about it.

what the fuck is ironic? its a fundamentally flawed game where push/pull fucks up the skill level. just because its there means we should boycott it and subject ourselves to be anally raped by it from random newbies? christ jk2 isn't a company selling hairspray that harms the environment, get your internet and real realities straight before you post again.

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[16:52:04] (pds|dynom|te) maybe one day when ur testes grow you'll play a man's game like q3

i guess they don't teach people how to read in his part of south central.
power of the internet words > power of the down syndrome.

DSbr<<ra3.jk2.national.recruiting
--------------------------------------------------------------------

-hamtaro

TWL Member

2003-01-25 08:43

Originally posted by: Infamous'i2-SF

Let me put it this way

We all have diffrent opinions obviously, we saberists want pull/push in the game because those 2 forces is basically what our game is based on, while you gunners hate them because it totally ruins your stratagy w/e. Why dont you just play on a server with disabled push and pull?

HELLO THIS IS A MOD. IT IS FOR FF GUNNERS. IT WILL NOT AFFECT YOU AT ALL. ITS NOT A PATCH. just like the saberists idiotic xmod doesn't affect us at all. hurry along back to your special corner aka your forums now.
Post edited by -hamtaro at 1/25/2003 8:49:07 AM

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[16:52:04] (pds|dynom|te) maybe one day when ur testes grow you'll play a man's game like q3

i guess they don't teach people how to read in his part of south central.
power of the internet words > power of the down syndrome.

DSbr<<ra3.jk2.national.recruiting
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Infamous'i2-SF

TWL Member

2003-01-25 10:29

Originally posted by: -hamtaro

Originally posted by: Infamous'i2-SF

Let me put it this way

We all have diffrent opinions obviously, we saberists want pull/push in the game because those 2 forces is basically what our game is based on, while you gunners hate them because it totally ruins your stratagy w/e. Why dont you just play on a server with disabled push and pull?

HELLO THIS IS A MOD. IT IS FOR FF GUNNERS. IT WILL NOT AFFECT YOU AT ALL. ITS NOT A PATCH. just like the saberists idiotic xmod doesn't affect us at all. hurry along back to your special corner aka your forums now.

Oh since you told me to go back to my forum i guess i will

-Voodoo

TWL Member

2003-01-25 12:13

Yeah go away, i think someone created a forum for saberists, what are u all doing here

DeTRiTiC-iQ

TWL Member

2003-01-25 12:15

Originally posted by: Infamous'i2-SF

Let me put it this way

We all have diffrent opinions obviously, we saberists want pull/push in the game because those 2 forces is basically what our game is based on, while you gunners hate them because it totally ruins your stratagy w/e. Why dont you just play on a server with disabled push and pull?

Because then there would be no way for a lightsider to stop a rager.

Lets try this again:

A game is fundamentally flawed when the cheapest and easiest move in the game is the only requirement for defence in public CTF

Infamous'i2-SF

TWL Member

2003-01-25 12:36

sorry im not allowed to answer that question, im not allowed in this forum

RA-Reckless

TWL Member

2003-01-25 15:15

Originally posted by: Infamous'i2-SF

sorry im not allowed to answer that question, im not allowed in this forum

thats almost as gay as something Darkz would post...
><><><><><><><><><><
me>you
Have a nice Fucking day n00bs
See you on the other side...
There is enough flame in this place to provide an artificial sun for the next billion years.

Darksaber

TWL Member

2003-01-25 15:25

Originally posted by: RA-Reckless

Originally posted by: Infamous'i2-SF

sorry im not allowed to answer that question, im not allowed in this forum

thats almost as gay as something Darkz would post...

hehehe havent seen him around for a while now...hehe

Aoshi

TWL Member

2003-01-25 17:54

Originally posted by: -hamtaro

kill rage replace it with destruct

kill push/pull make them pull weapons/push projectiles, make push completely useless for all i care its retarded episode 1 crap anyways.

make lightning hurt when absorb is turned on but still absorb force.

make destruct hurt when absorb is turned on but still absorb force.

ITS ABSORB FOR CHRISSAKES NOT PROTECT.

let someone turn on both absorb and protect at the same time with double mana drain.

make absorb fully absorb drain (+bonus to mana) with no other effect.

don't change force power costs, angle of motion, or any other retarded thing jk2++ did, just leave all of that crap alone and the game is fine.

and also up the saber damage like 100% so that the weapon can be used as more than a fucking shield. god i cant believe i'm agreeing with a dsbr. it's amazing.

{FK}FallenOne

Yep, I'm a momo and got banned.

2003-01-25 18:13

Hamtaro you need to learn comprehension son. I'm not disagreeing that pull/push suck. I'm saying it's IRONIC THAT THE BIGGEST PULL WHORES ARE THE ONES BITCHING ABOUT IT. Go buy a clue.
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DSbr_InfErnO

TWL Member

2003-01-25 18:16

Originally posted by: -Voodoo

Yeah go away, i think someone created a forum for saberists, what are u all doing here

The saber forum is boring just like their bowing duels. Figure out.
blah

-hamtaro

TWL Member

2003-01-25 18:17

Originally posted by: {FK}FallenOne

Hamtaro you need to learn comprehension son. I'm not disagreeing that pull/push suck. I'm saying it's IRONIC THAT THE BIGGEST PULL WHORES ARE THE ONES BITCHING ABOUT IT. Go buy a clue.

you only prove you know jack fucking shit about the community with your posts. CLUE UP FOR BID FALLENONE WAGERS HIS LIFE SAVINGS.

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[16:52:04] (pds|dynom|te) maybe one day when ur testes grow you'll play a man's game like q3

i guess they don't teach people how to read in his part of south central.
power of the internet words > power of the down syndrome.

DSbr<<ra3.jk2.national.recruiting
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