Twl stance on scripting

Ok guys i KNOW i am gonna get a lot of flack about this, but it's simply annoying me. "scripting".

Now I'm not gonna throw myself out there as this fantastic Jk2 player whos ego is being destroyed, but i think a fundamental element of fair play is being disrupted here. Some have called it Scripting, dunno they might just be making the word up, those who use it usually call it a "sensative mouse". But when I see a person who, in red mind you, backstab/slash's(whatever u wanna call it) about 5 spins in about half the time it would normally take a regular (i'll call it handbook) backstab/slash, I'm thinking, What The Hell?! I'm not complaining about people using backstab/slash repeatedly over and over, hey if they go those kinda desperate lengths to win, I say let em. But whatever the big "secret" about this move is I simply think is cheap and unsportsmanlike. I have more respect for people that try to dfa me while I'm bowing honestly. I KNOW i'm gonna be branded a "newbie"(had the game since about first week of May i think, it was released in march or april mind you) or a whiner, or a sore loser, but my opinion is it's simply underhanded tacticts to win at any and all costs. So call me names if you must, but I'd like other's opinions about this.


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Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to one severe ass kicking!

I doubt there is anything a "script" can gain you as far as increasing your speed for backstab. You may have been witnessing someone using the Medium Backstab and Dark Rage. Dark Rage greatly increases your attack speed.

People may call backstabbing underhanded and cheap, but it's a part of the game. Normally when someone says "Backstab" they mean that you are attacking them from behind when they have little defense. It's strange we are using the same word for someone that he directly in front of you, that is executing a special maneuver.

I agree that it's wrong and it's cheating to use some sort of exploit to allow them incredible advantage via scripting. The community doesn't need any more of that.

No I know dark rage and I have sound fx maxed, i know and can see it. This is something becoming universal in the jk2 community. Perhaps not in the ladders, which would be very good for you guys, but i missed the deadline cause of standardized testing mandatory for graduation, didn't have the time. It basically goes like this, they use some means of getting you down, ie kicking, pushing pulling, but i'm not complaining about that, then, FACING YOU, mind you, they begin a backslash unleashes a super fast attack that, depending on the user, will either allow for 5 backslashes in a row that are semi-fast, or 1 blindingly fast backslash that eliminates what i would believe Raven's intention of a threat of being attacked if missing. Basically what it's called depends on which end of the saber. Killer says he cranks mouse sensativity (which i think is bull because i have tried it and it takes less than 10 seconds to make me nauseus), or the kill-ee, many of whom call it scripting. Whatever it is, its becoming more and more common, and the FUN, yes, not "feeling of danger" or "need for skill" or lack of retaliation, is being sucked out. A lot of the time i hit ESC and exit program, and i just wanna smash my cd, but that's just my own personal rage problem


________________________________________________________________________

Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to one severe ass kicking!

Yes - what I find most annoying is "scripting" for saber locks. That just defeats the point of it ENTIRELY, as this is simply cheating, no matter how you look at it. Also, if everyone used these scripts, those with the fastest processors would benefit, due to the nature of the "scripting" (apparently...). Admittedly, I have a fast processor, but I'm not gonna resort to cheating.

So there I am, bashing away at the mouse getting high blood pressure, whilst my opponent does his scripting thing, and inevitably wins.

My point is, I would quite like saber locks disabled for matches of all types - I'm ALWAYS beaten in these locks when my opponent is scripting, and half the time, subsequently killed - all because I don't cheat.

That's all my whining finished - for now
Post edited by Markrian at 6/27/2002 2:07:58 PM




Markrian

I agree with both posts, although I do tend to win my fair share of saber-locks (without cheating mind!). Backstabbing, then spinning around ultra-fast is just completely ruining the game for me - There is no way to beat someone who has 'mastered' this 'technique' without resorting to unsportsmanlike conduct yourself, something I refuse to lower myself to. I really don't understand why people do this, it can't possibly be fun, can it? The best player I've ever played (& who's at the top of the duel ladders at the moment I think) is Galgorth - & when I played him, he used NO 'special' moves, just impecable timing and placement.
My point is, I can admit when someone's a better player than me and I really enjoy a good challenge - but being beaten constantly by people who SPIN on a BACKstab just completely ruins the fun. And what's worse is they usually add insult to injury by calling you a 'n00b' or something equally stupid. These people really must have some serious inadequacy problems, they tend to quit as soon as someone luckily (or rarely, skillfully) beats them...

If I'm talking about you, I hope you take much offense from this - you're ruining the game for fair players.


p.s. Mace Windu - I totally share your feeling of wanting to smash the CD after playing a game against these sort of people

If anyone could make a demo of this and post, I would appreciate it. Still haven't seen this. Sounds very interesting tho.

jK2++ Fixes assfighting!
Currently in beta 3.
Theres like 7 or so servers running it right now.
http://dev.wdonline.com to find out more or give feed back at
http://forums.wdonline.com

I have quite a few scripts, but none are involved with the light sabre... which IMO is the most useless weapon in the game.

Lightsaber the most useless weapon in the game? Hmmm..Jedi Knight 2: Jedi Outcast, I'm pretty sure that implies Jedi's who use lightsabers. Why don't you just stick to quake 3 and counter-strike and that other crap man...


BiG Bro All i gotta know is HOW to record a demo and i can get one to ya


________________________________________________________________________

Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to one severe ass kicking!

I'll try to find out how & record a demo tonight... I think everyone should witness how dishonourable a lot of JK2 players are :p

actually? the way to record a demo is a script

sorry, just struck me as funny....its bound to be on one of the sites....I have it on my copy, just cant remember where I got it

Mace.... so just because Jedi's use sabres in the movies you think you should do it in the game? Or you could open your eyes and realize what works, guns. Relating JK2 to CS is hilarious.

As for demo recording, I will release scripts on the community website that is going to be built.

Allright, settle down boys. Personally I like the saber, I think it's a very usefull tool, but some people perfer not to use it. Both arguemnts have pros and cons, but I find a good mix of sabers and guns to be the best.

Anyway, we're not here to argue if the saber is good or not.. This was about scripts if I remember right hehe. Personally I dislike those saber lock scripts myself, has made it pointless to even engage in them. I've also heard of scripts for flip kicking. I personally don't use them, tho people have claimed I do for the flip kicks. ^-^

Now while there are bad ones there are also good ones. Like I have binds that change my button configs based on what force powers I have, that in a small way is a usefull script. Also there are scripts to help make recordings if you don't know the commands or don't like typing/binding them.

Just like Tribes 2 there are good and bad, tho in Tribes 2 scripts can do amazing things. Thankfully there aren't that many scripts that I know of that can change the way JK2 plays. Yes those super fast spins can be annoying, but sometimes if they go too fast you get a chance to kick them before youre die and survive. Eventually TWL will realize what's out there and make some kind of list as to what is banned, just like T2. It will come.
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=NCG=KageKaze
Co-SL Jedi Knight II
New Century Gamers

(First thing is a mini-sorta thing between me and Krash, so if ur not at all interested in me talking less objectively and sophisticated, then I suggest skipping it. Hey, I just turned 17, I got 1 year left in me where I can talk like it Right? )

Krash: I see the server info screen, 75% of the time its duel's only) if i see a server w/o the little saber icon indicating sabers only, i just skip right past it. I didn't buy jk2 to run around like i did in unreal tournament and and DoD, just hitting fire aimlessly at a large group of people backpeddaling. Ya wanna know something REALLY sad? I've seen a few servers, DUEL TYPE mind you, NO FORCE (not even restricted jump and throw corce, but completely no force) and ALL weapons!! In all weapons, saber is useless unless ur really an expert with it and or switching with it, against someone backpeddaling with a flechette. I mean NO force, ALL weapons DUEL TYPE! JEDI Knight! Gimme a BREAK! $%@# THAT!

(O.K. Got that part out. Now for the real thread topic. And uh hehe Kagekaze, I won't go off on one of my rants about Kicking,(soccer players, who I've seen a lot more of since the begin of the world cup, Coincidence, Or Dannon?) cause ya seem like a nice guy )

Well Grimjack i consider a "script" to be something that is an exploit of certain miss configurations of the game, drastically altering normal gameplay. When in multiplayer ya hit Play game, 1 of the 3 options is Play Demo. So I think that would be an exception. But when some guy finds some way or another to knock me down, and then hits a script hotkey that spins him around faster than the eye can see, and doubles a quintouple-hyperspeed-backslash on me before i hit the ground, I haev a serious problem. And like I said before, I'm not the greatest, so i wont claim to be, jk2 player, I can't sidekick people fast enough when they go for it. Maybe it's my 56k connection because At&t and Verizon both dont even bother offering cable or dsl where i live despite the number of people as--------....sorry, unrelated topic. But i just think scripts are bad. Ok kage, changing force powers script, hardly bad seeing how force changes can't even take place until after spawn, or bind changes, text, doesnt effect gameplay, but the other 90% does..and that's basically what I'm complaing about. (YES! I'm complaininG! And whining! and bitching and moaning or whatever other euphomism u can think of! But its a problem. Ok you guys here in 2v2 saber duels playing for gf4 graphics card, or that 25k grand prize someone else is offering in a tourney, fine, i can understand the will to win there, but as for me, who plays maybe 3 hours a day recreationally (school just got out and its hot as hell, it aint excessive to me ^_^, let me just have my fun the way Raven designed it!! Now if you'll excuse me, I need to see a doctor about my increasing fever, blood pressure, and this sharp pain in my left arm...


P.S. Since i mentioned ladders, in the stats what does a Llama count mean? I played C.S. for a while, it was what some called an insult, but in ladder stats? No show? tie? Quit?

Post edited by Mace Windu at 6/29/2002 6:46:31 AM

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Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to one severe ass kicking!

no show

not sure if this was answered or not. but with trick that people pull where they spin around really really fast like that is where they change their yaw speed. (/cl_yawspeed xxxx, then hit left or right arrow) Its a simple change in your player movement that makes your guy spin incredibly fast. No Cheat, no script.

Well, it is a bit of a cheat really :p Not even a Jedi could spin that fast & it makes the backstab moves invincible, thus ruining the game... It's like if there was a command that could make you invincible, saying using that wouldn't be cheating... It would be

No worries Mace....I'm not thin skinned

a "script" the way I was defining it it a piece of code that executes a predefined action AND is user coded after game release......something released by the company is a patch..same thing made by a player is a script

I agree with you over using "scripts" to attack & defend...if you cant do the move, using a preset code string to do it FOR you is unethical

what I was laughing about wasnt that, but the fact ppl were wanting demos of scripts in action and the only (that I know about..there maybe others) to make a demo in JK2 is to use a "script", since the ability to record a demo didnt come out with the game....it was made functional by one of the players.

Long & short, I wasnt disagreeing with anyone. I just found it funny that to discuss the misuse of scripts, you had to USE a script....so I've got a weird sense of humor

btw..."llama" in the ladder stats means a forfeit...no show, not enough ppl, etc
Post edited by GrimJack at 6/30/2002 7:31:10 PM

Actually, when people spin around very fast (mentioned by someone else), it isn't a script or a cheat. You can use the command as stated previously, or, simply press escape, go to "Controls", then go to "Mouse/Joystick"... and change your mouse sensitivity. You could bind a key to change the mouse sensitivity so you can spin fast while performing the backstab, and bind another key to change your sensitivity back to normal. Personally, and through my experience... it does absolutely nothing except make you spin more. The same ammount of damage is still dealt out, no more. I don't see the big deal, and frankly... I don't know why the backstab is such a big problem. I've walked away from a PERFECTLY executed pull/backstab with 80 health and 0 shields, having started with 100 health and 25 shields. It's extremely easy to perform pull/backstab, AND to counter it.

Heck, maybe I'll give away my secrets AFTER the JK2x2 Tournament, . Even then, however... I think I'll make those wanting the info to come to The Jedi Academy at http://academy.owns.it - we could set something up, .

Ya'... I generally have a huge problem with people who don't like the pull/backstab move. All I can say to these people is, you need to LEARN JK2 before you criticize it. Raven actually balanced it out EXTREMELY well, . If you cannot yet counter practically every move... then you haven't done enough testing yet, . Backstab is only dangerous in FF... because if you get hit by it in NF... then, well... why were you standing behind that guy not moving? I suppose it could be dangerous if you lost a saber lock, and were hit to the ground... other than that...

I don't dislike the power of the move, I dislike the way you can move with it. I agree, why on earth in an NF match would you be standing behind someone not moving? But what if they tried to do a backstab & you expertly pre-empted it, started a heavy forwards swing and ran around them to get them from the front? A bit annoying if they just suddenly spin round and kill you instantly... I agree that the game is quite well balanced, but a backstab should be a backstab, nothing else.
Also, spinning faster does make it more deadly as there are more points where the saber can collide with your body - if the player doesn't spin fast or at all, the move's fairly easy to avoid, but if he's spinning so fast that there are no opening points, it makes it impossibly to attack and impossible to escape if you were unlucky enough to be close to them as they executed it.

I find that to maximize the amount of times the saber hits your opponent, you're better off turning slowly... as it actually hits your opponent more often. And still, when people spin really really fast, you don't know that it does more damage if you don't know how to defend it. It does nothing more when you use the proper defensive tactics, as long as you know how to defend against it, you'll see it does absolutely nothing more... people just think it does.

Umm i don't how the heck u can honestly say it doesnt do more damage, if someone pulls you, and they being a REGULAR backstab in red, theres a kinda pause as the char cocks his wrist before swiping behind him, about a 2 second delay. Adding that bullshit with mouse sensativity making it faster, those 2 critical seconds dissapear, and even if u manage to jump up and avoid the first one, hes STILL swinging doing as much damage as a normal one, in less time, less vulnerability, and less chance of missing. Its that simple. Its cheap, its pathetic, and it doesn't belong anywhere in a game, you can use that stuff when ur fighting for prizes, but when i go into a public server just to have some fun, and some "expert" whos "learned" how to bind his mouse sensativity just does nothing but do a super slash to everyone in the server, each match lasting 10 seconds, no one else to duel with except that one person, i find no fun in it. I dont see how anyone can defend cheap crap like that
________________________________________________________________________

Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to one severe ass kicking!

No, I'm sorry, no. You don't know how to defend it, so you just think it's greater damage, my friend... do some playing around with things tonight, maybe you'll learn what to do to defend it.

O...K....I....will.....talk....really....slowly.....for....you....if....there...is...more....than.....1...swing....its....more....damage...than...a....regular....1
....swing...if....he...swings....5....times....instead....of...once...thats.....5....swings.....5....times.....the....damage...o.....k?

And did i ever say i COULDN'T defend against it?
Post edited by Mace Windu at 7/2/2002 3:13:43 AM

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Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to one severe ass kicking!

Heh, I'm sorry, but I'm not even gonna waste my time anymore, . If you THINK it does more damage, then no, you don't know how to defend against it.

Sorry for the inconvenience, buddy.

Yeah well continue ur ignorance, and go ahead keep scripting in your crusade to win at all costs. Just don't complain when someone "legitamitly" makes a script where they're invincible, or they're saber length stretches across the entire map, or hell, just a script that causes u to die without them doing anything. Scripters = gamers = lamers = ruin good games for people who just wanna play for fun
________________________________________________________________________

Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to one severe ass kicking!

The fact of the matter is that RAVEN made JK2 ... and this is what it is. To complain about a move someone mastered (backstabbed / pulled & swept) is rediculus. Its made to be realistic and anyone can learn to use it and master it. I can spin around a bit faster just by jerking my mouse. I remember being called a cheater in T2 when I got more than 2 MA's in a row. It wasn't untill everyone practiced and l;eaned the skill did the bs stop. Some people are better than others. Your always going to have better players than yourself (someone can always beat you). Learn to block and avpoid the damage done by these moves. I have blocked backstabs and jumped clear from sweeps. As far as the orce goes ... if someone uses the force in conjunbction with a move ... thats just part of the game. If you go to a ND SO FFA server ... people pull the moves timed without force. Right now, not many people are skilled enough so they will call it "unsportsmanlike". Soon as this person learns the moves ... that attitude will change. This is just a new game with new flamed. In time people will just agree that better players are exactly that .... better. Practice ... Play the game. Take the time to learn the moves. That makes you a better player ... not chatting here about your dislikes. Realistically, if someone runs a sword through your gut, you die. If your legs are swept by a sword ... you loose your legs and will die. The challenge here is avoidance. Other people can do it ... so can you!


KILZ-Narotic
File Manager - JediKnightii.net
WebDev - Tribes-Universe.com
Owner - SkinnersGuild.com

No, I don't think you get it... I don't mind people who just backstab normally, very easy to defend against & usually causes their death as they can't move around - but if they have bound a key to ramp their sensitivity up, there's no way to dodge it - the strong backslash is a one-hit-kills move, no matter how slight the hit... Ocassionally you can get away with brushing a weak backstab, but VERY ocassionally. What we're complaining about is the use of a script to put the mouse sensitivity at normally unattainable levels so you can spin around faster than is normally possible... It isn't a skill, it's just a cheap exploit - Like Mace Windu said, if there became a way to extend your saber across the level using some sort of script, would it then be a skill to use it?
Admittedly, it's getting easier to dodge the move as my skill improves, but there's just no need for it... The best player I played didn't use ANY special moves & whooped me, so it's not like it increases your chances of winning any (I win a lot on public servers, so don't go thinking I'm whining cos I'm crap & losing all the time)
It just decreases the enjoyment of the game for others - it's unnecessary... And surely you have to question why in a BACKstab and a BACKslash that you can spin around...? Raven aren't perfect, people make mistakes...

Ok, I've been agains the use of scripts in all games.
Even Buy scripts in CS. I spent a lot of time learning how to buy weapons really quickly. So can other ppl.
This is the first ive really heard of scripts in JKII. And all I can say is. SAD!
JKII shouldnt even require the use of any sripts. I didnt think their would be any use for it. But obviously some little 13yr old hacker kid has created one, cause he cant win a game.

None the less. This "High Mouse Sensitvity Backstab" is quite lame. I've seen it in action several times. And It is suprisinly hard to counter.
And Unlike the post above. It usually kills people instantly. I tried doing this. I turned my mouse sensitivity right up, but i found i couldnt control or aim.
Which is now why i realise why these people only really stand still and then Use the BackStab Fast Spin attack when someone comes near them.
llama's!!!!

I don't believe its a script, rather a cfg file with a setting in it. I believe its yawspeed or something to that effect. Some people have it set higher to spin faster when they jerk their mouse. Most guys who have this set don't realize its easily dodged. In a large cluster of plays, 1 guy may get hit. I don't find this troublesome at the least since I can fight around it. I don't even see what the big deal is. Practice to avoid the spin and you won't die.


KILZ-Narotic
File Manager - JediKnightii.net
WebDev - Tribes-Universe.com
Owner - SkinnersGuild.com

http://www.techspot.com/tweaks/jedioutcast/index.shtml


this was posted on jediknightii.net, i was running through the graphics tweeks when i saw there is one for mouse sensitivity. so u guys can blame the scripting on them and jediknightii.net

But the mouse sensitivity can be changed in almost everygame you play !! TO say thats a cheat is rediculus. Learn the moves, play the game, become a better warrior ... but don't ruin the game for everyone with sensless banter because you don't like getting killed. If you don't like to get sabered, stay off FFA servers and play smart on ctf servers.


KILZ-Narotic
File Manager - JediKnightii.net
WebDev - Tribes-Universe.com
Owner - SkinnersGuild.com

I only play duel (imo, other games do the other modes much better) & there are certain ways you can just spoil the game for everyone that really doesn't take much skill at all... I think everyone that plays duel predominantly, except the people that use the exploits, would agree with me... Either way, I'm getting quite proficient at avoiding it anyway, it's just not fun to have to do so...

Ya just to seem to get it Narotic, its not backstab, its scripting your jk2 files so that u can hit a hotkey button that changes your mouse sensativity so that its as high as possible so that your backstab does about 3 swings in the time it SHOULd, what Raven MADE it to do, take u 1 swing. I already said I dont claim to be this great player who comes on here flaunting my peverbeal jk2 dick around saying i'm great. I'm not. I play the game for fun, i play duels for FUN. This isn't fun. Some pimple faced 13 year old who has nothing better to do screws around with his files ruining the game for me is not fun. I just dont seem to see why some people just can't play a game for fun. They have to be these ultra-competitive egos about being the very best and any that complain are "n00bs" who "suck" and "u just arent good enuf" or "u just dont like dying". It ruins the game, period. And i sure hope soon TWL will ban any that use it. Maybe that'll spark some change.
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Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to one severe ass kicking!

I've played on a few servers that are running some great mods - one thing that is universal between all of them is the disabling of moving on backstabs, so I think it's generally agreed that it's a crap 'feature' :p

btw, since I installed win2k, I've been able to just knock my mouse to the side on standard sensitivity & it does do about 2 or 3 spins quite fast - It seems that the XP mouse drivers don't like short sharp movements like that or something Either way, it's do-able without scripting...

BUT, that makes it no less gay.